Was 06 Dirk comparable or better than Jokic these past 2 seasons?

[1993Playoffs]

I know their team situations are a bit different but how would you compare their level of play?

[No-more-rings]

Maybe comparable to 2021, but 2022 Jokic seems like a tier or so higher. The passing advantage is too much.

[falcolombardi]

2022 jokic is a goat tier regular season only below the likes of 2009 lebron or 2016 curry

Dirk playoffs run may make up the difference

[Cavsfansince84]

Jokic clearly above even if you want to say Dirk is on a similar tier imo. Its not like Jokic is a guy you can say is just a rs stats guy either. He's a big time playoff performer that I don't think any defense has ever come close to stopping. Similar situation that Dirk was in up until 2011 though in that he was labeled as soft and bad on defense. People didn't fully appreciate Dirk's style of game until later imo.

[70sFan]

I'd take 2022 Jokic over any version of Dirk.

[capfan33]

Think Jokic last year and maybe the year before is better than even 2011 Dirk.

[Doctor MJ]

Gimmie Jokic. Considerably stronger offensive player, and the concerns I have for Jokic's playoff defense are shared by Dirk.

[Texas Chuck]

I know Dirk isn't a playmaker, but I sure hope those citing passing understand that Dirk created as many wide open shots for teammates as maybe any player ever. And I mean ever. Any PNR action meant an open shot for the guard, Dirk, or a teammate if it was blitzed. Every high post meant Dirk got a 1 v 1 with a guy who can't guard him or if the double comes Dirk beats it with the right pass, extra pass, open 3.

I get Jokic statistically is blowing Dirk away, but in terms of overall impact I think its a lot closer than many of you appear to. Dirk was still freaking out defenses in his late 30's when he was part of a Mavs 2nd unit with Dwight Powell, Devin Harris, JJ Barea, and a rotating 5th and for 2 straight years on a terrible Mavs team, that unit was outscoring teams by 20 points per 100. And this was old can't move Dirk. Prime Dirk? By 06 not even Shaq was putting as much fear into defenses and coaches as Dirk.

Homer rant over, I'd take Jokic both years over 06 Dirk.

[falcolombardi]

I know Dirk isn't a playmaker, but I sure hope those citing passing understand that Dirk created as many wide open shots for teammates as maybe any player ever. And I mean ever. Any PNR action meant an open shot for the guard, Dirk, or a teammate if it was blitzed. Every high post meant Dirk got a 1 v 1 with a guy who can't guard him or if the double comes Dirk beats it with the right pass, extra pass, open 3.

I get Jokic statistically is blowing Dirk away, but in terms of overall impact I think its a lot closer than many of you appear to. Dirk was still freaking out defenses in his late 30's when he was part of a Mavs 2nd unit with Dwight Powell, Devin Harris, JJ Barea, and a rotating 5th and for 2 straight years on a terrible Mavs team, that unit was outscoring teams by 20 points per 100. And this was old can't move Dirk. Prime Dirk? By 06 not even Shaq was putting as much fear into defenses and coaches as Dirk.

Homer rant over, I'd take Jokic both years over 06 Dirk.

Completely agree with the dirk praise here

Not much more to add except that for all the defensive worries about him, dirk has been in actual elite defense units which is not somethinfh jokic has proven (yet)

[tsherkin]

Dirk was great, and I loved to watch him. Loved it a little more when he was older and hitting the mid-post with more fervor, but pretty much the entire time.

I'd take Jokic, but yeah, Dirk was a party.

[No-more-rings]

I know Dirk isn't a playmaker, but I sure hope those citing passing understand that Dirk created as many wide open shots for teammates as maybe any player ever. And I mean ever.

As much as anyone ever? I’m just curious if you have numbers to back this up.

[tsherkin]

I know Dirk isn't a playmaker, but I sure hope those citing passing understand that Dirk created as many wide open shots for teammates as maybe any player ever. And I mean ever.

As much as anyone ever? I’m just curious if you have numbers to back this up.

He doesn't, he was having a laugh. Didn't you see the "homer rant" bit at the end?

[falcolombardi]

I know Dirk isn't a playmaker, but I sure hope those citing passing understand that Dirk created as many wide open shots for teammates as maybe any player ever. And I mean ever.

As much as anyone ever? I’m just curious if you have numbers to back this up.

He doesn't, he was having a laugh. Didn't you see the "homer rant" bit at the end?

I think the only wrong thingh he said was the "most opportunities created ever" but even then dirk amount of indirect creation with his big man gravity is underated by usual measures like assists per game

Other than curry, elite shooting big men (pretty much just towns and dirk, durant when he plays the 4) are the ones who create the most gravity off ball as they force bigs off the paint and compromise defenses the hardest with their pick and pop threath

[tsherkin]

I think the only wrong thingh he said was the "most opportunities created ever" but even then dirk amount of indirect creation with his big man gravity is underated by usual measures like assists per game

Oh, there were truths in it, for sure. Dirk was excellent. The idea that he stands up there with some of the top-end playmakers in terms of creating more open shots is a bit off-kilter, though, which is in keeping with the tone of the rant. Dirk was excellent at making use of his possessions, and not wasting time when he didn't have to. He also did a great job of opening up the interior and manipulating his defensive draw; he was, after all, an elite offensive player and about the furthest thing imaginable from a ball-hog.

[Texas Chuck]

I know Dirk isn't a playmaker, but I sure hope those citing passing understand that Dirk created as many wide open shots for teammates as maybe any player ever. And I mean ever.

As much as anyone ever? I’m just curious if you have numbers to back this up.

He doesn't, he was having a laugh. Didn't you see the "homer rant" bit at the end?

I wasn't having a laugh about that at all.

And I have no idea what numbers I could possibly provide to prove that, so sorry no numbers.

But I watched every game over 21 years and outside the first two and the last one, I watched very good defenses freak out because Dirk was on the other end and I watched some really average rosters have incredible success because the Mavs never turned the ball over(Dirk elite in this area) and they always got a good shot when Dirk was on the court. Because there wasn't a person alive who could guard him 1 on 1 and he was a smart, willing passer who always made the right pass. No, he doesn't have Jokic' otherworldly vision and skill as a passer, but you don't have to if you've created a 4 on 3. Or just by running a simple PNR where the big never leaves the screener because its Dirk so Jason Terry or JJ Barea get layups or mid range jumpers or throw lobs or kick it to the corner.

Dirk played 21 years. 18 of those years as a guy that defenses played out of their comfort zone because of him specifically. He was durable. I stand by my belief that there might not be another player in the history of the league as responsible for getting teammates wide open shots as Dirk.

Maybe Lebron. Maybe. Maybe Kareem. Maybe. Maybe Shaq? But beyond that who could it be? It's not Stockton he of the billion assists. Or Kidd. Or Paul. Or Nash. Or Magic.

Go back and watch any Mavs game between 2000 and 2017. Be astounded at how easy offense was for Dirk's teammates. Even in the Avery years.

[tsherkin]

I wasn't having a laugh about that at all.

I stand corrected.

But I watched every game over 21 years and outside the first two and the last one, I watched very good defenses freak out because Dirk was on the other end and I watched some really average rosters have incredible success because the Mavs never turned the ball over(Dirk elite in this area) and they always got a good shot when Dirk was on the court. Because there wasn't a person alive who could guard him 1 on 1 and he was a smart, willing passer who always made the right pass.

Can't argue with any of that. Dirk was unquestionably elite on offense. I call hyperbole on the specific statement, but he was very much one of the best to lace 'em up as far as being an offensive centerpiece. Very, very few mistakes made and lots of benefit to his team when he was on the court, for sure.

Go back and watch any Mavs game between 2000 and 2017. Be astounded at how easy offense was for Dirk's teammates. Even in the Avery years.

Again, I agree with the premise that he was an astonishingly effective and elite offensive centerpiece. I just don't agree with the specific statement. I watched Dirk plenty, and I've seen plenty of other guys who have driven offenses to high-volume open shots for guys. But the former is impressive; the latter is a little less so, because your classic penetrate-and-pitch guys do tons of that. I feel like the hyperbole actually detracts from what Dirk accomplished, IMHO. He didn't waste time, he didn't hang onto the ball too long, he knew when to move it, he rarely turned it over even in his youth when he drove a lot more, he aged gracefully. He didn't spam the 3, so there was a greater degree of consistency and low variance to his offense, and he was an absolutely ruthless sniper in the mid-range zones on a volume level that I don't personally recall seeing from anyone not named Jordan (I'm sure we can dig up a couple of other people over time, but regardless, he's in legendary company in that regard).

[No-more-rings]

As much as anyone ever? I’m just curious if you have numbers to back this up.

He doesn't, he was having a laugh. Didn't you see the "homer rant" bit at the end?

I wasn't having a laugh about that at all.

And I have no idea what numbers I could possibly provide to prove that, so sorry no numbers.

But I watched every game over 21 years and outside the first two and the last one, I watched very good defenses freak out because Dirk was on the other end and I watched some really average rosters have incredible success because the Mavs never turned the ball over(Dirk elite in this area) and they always got a good shot when Dirk was on the court. Because there wasn't a person alive who could guard him 1 on 1 and he was a smart, willing passer who always made the right pass. No, he doesn't have Jokic' otherworldly vision and skill as a passer, but you don't have to if you've created a 4 on 3. Or just by running a simple PNR where the big never leaves the screener because its Dirk so Jason Terry or JJ Barea get layups or mid range jumpers or throw lobs or kick it to the corner.

Dirk played 21 years. 18 of those years as a guy that defenses played out of their comfort zone because of him specifically. He was durable. I stand by my belief that there might not be another player in the history of the league as responsible for getting teammates wide open shots as Dirk.

Maybe Lebron. Maybe. Maybe Kareem. Maybe. Maybe Shaq? But beyond that who could it be? It's not Stockton he of the billion assists. Or Kidd. Or Paul. Or Nash. Or Magic.

Go back and watch any Mavs game between 2000 and 2017. Be astounded at how easy offense was for Dirk's teammates. Even in the Avery years.

Well if the answer is go and watch all the games, i don’t get the feel from the games I did watch that he created as much as anyone ever.

At least not direct creation, but any superstar creates even when they’re not getting a direct assist. If Dirk draws a double and gets say a hockey assist that definitely accounts for something. As far as making life easier for teammates, eye test tells me Nash and Magic probably are at the top. Dirk’s gravity opens things up a lot, but I don’t think it matches a guy being able to run around the court and find guys in their sweet spots.

I think “creation for others” though is just a part of overall offensive impact that probably shouldn’t be separated. Dirk’s scoring is still his most important asset on offense in the end. Dirk’s offensive impact was objectively below Nash’s and Lebron’s for his time, so I wouldn’t consider him above them offensively.

Jokic is an offensive monster much like Dirk, but in a different way. I don’t really know how to compare them. We know Jokic is a much better passer, Dirk is probably a better scorer despite the numbers. Dirk seems to have better footwork and a quicker, higher release. Dirk seems better at driving and craftier at drawing fouls. Jokic depsite that, still can’t seem to be slowed down by anyone. I mean he’s just seems to bully defenders with his strength and then shoot over them. Dirk’s game is probably nicer to watch. From the looks of Jokic I often wonder how he even does what he does.

[tsherkin]

At least not direct creation, but any superstar creates even when they’re not getting a direct assist. If Dirk draws a double and gets say a hockey assist that definitely accounts for something. As far as making life easier for teammates, eye test tells me Nash and Magic probably are at the top. Dirk’s gravity opens things up a lot, but I don’t think it matches a guy being able to run around the court and find guys in their sweet spots.

This is about where I sit on the subject.

Dirk’s game is probably nicer to watch.

I think Older Dirk is one of my favorite players to watch. He had this "old man at the YMCA" kind of vibe. He didn't have a ton of athleticism left, but you just KNEW he was going to drop buckets on you regardless. Like, 2008 and later, and I'm probably down-playing his athleticism because I visually remember him most recently at age 40. But you know what I mean, he was never a high-flier to begin with and he rarely bothered jumping very high because he got such incredible separation and body defense on the fade. He just tippy-tapped around, or shot straight over. Just... minimum wasted movement, maximum value extracted with each step and angle. An absolute pleasure to watch.

[Texas Chuck]

I feel like the hyperbole actually detracts from what Dirk accomplished, IMHO. .

Is it hyperbole?

Dirk played 21 years. He was remarkably durable. For all but year 1 and year 21 he was a good offensive player, from year 3 through year 17 or 18 he was a great offensive player, for a dozen of those years he was an elite offensive player.

Again Lebron, Kareem, maybe Shaq have some arguments. These were elite offensive players for a really long time too. But some guys simply didn't play long enough. Some played long enough like Stockton or Kidd, but despite being high assist guys they weren't creating nearly the kind of looks for teammates that Dirk did.

Curry is like this, but he doesn't have nearly the longevity. Nash created a ton, but he was 26 before he was even a good player(sorry Doc but this is true_, and 30 before he was an elite one.

I wasn't saying Dirk was the best at creating open shots ever, though I think he is absolutely in that conversation despite your skepticism, but my statement was maybe nobody had created more open shots than Dirk and I stand by that. It may not be accurate, but its not hyperbole. When there are only a couple of players to even possibly argue against him, how can it be?

[tsherkin]

Is it hyperbole?

I think so, yes. Even if you're arguing from a standpoint of total open shots created, rather than on a per-game/season/whatever basis, I believe it to be a hyperbolic statement.

I wasn't saying Dirk was the best at creating open shots ever, though I think he is absolutely in that conversation

While I don't put him in any serious consideration for being the best at this, I am obliged to confess that he facilitated high-end team offense quite well with his skillset and approach to the game.

When there are only a couple of players to even possibly argue against him, how can it be?

Our first point of disagreement is the idea that there are only a couple of players possible to argue against him, as it happens.