True or False: Duncan’s offense eliminates him from GOAT conversations?

[OhayoKD]

If you had used another player than Jordan in your original example, I could have agreed with your point because it can be a good one. When he played, Jordan was the best defender at his position, right?

"at his position" is doing alot of work. Jordan's never anchored an elite playoff defense, the bulls went from average to best in the league with his defense declining, and then the bulls weren't really affected by his depature. Duncan on the other hand was massively valuable to arguably the GOAT post-russell defense.

If we use metrics like drapm, dpipm, ect, ect jordan's best years are either +1 or +2. Duncan is at like +4 or +5. Duncan's a way way better defender.

Why would MJ, a Shooting Guard, need to anchor a defense? Bigs played a larger role on defense but that doesn't make Duncan a "way, way better defender" than MJ.

If you want to use stats like DRAPM, DPIPIM as an argument:

2002-03 RS DRAPM says Dirk Nowitski (2.31) and Tony Kukoc (2.06) had a higher DRAPM than Duncan (1.84).
2002-03 Playoff DRAPM says Manu Ginobili (2.93 in 2,880 possessions) had a higher DRAPM than Duncan (1.83 in 4,286 possessions).

So then what does that do to your argument?

I used 2002-03 season for the example because that's his best season.

A further example to show you the futility of using these stats to determine the best:

2000-01 RS RAPM has Duncan at 4th (4.10) and D-Rob at 13th (3.45) in their list overall... while Kobe was 36th (2.20) and Shaq was 50th (1.97)... yet the Lakers blanked the Spurs 4-0 in those playoffs.

why would duncan, a big, be expected to anchor an offense? If duncan can't be a much better defender because of his position, why should we care about jordan being a better at offense when he's a guard?

drapm is noisy over single year samples since there's no box-regression, by 5 year drapm duncan is #2 for the 2000's/2010's only passed by the best stretch of kg

[OhayoKD]

I would agree with this.

???

what 5-6 seasons do jordan and lebron have that are as good or surpassing when duncan hard-carried a team to a title?

Jordan: 88-93
Lebron: 09, 10, 12-13, 16-17

I wouldn’t put all them above peak Duncan, and some maybe even a tad below but it doesn’t sound crazy to put those seasons on that level.

putting 5 jordan years ahead seems kind of sus. Jordan joined a 30 win team and didn't cross past 50 wins until 90

13 also seems kinda wierd since the heat didn't do much better in the regular season than the spurs despite having wade/bosh and lebron/heat struggled mightily(even more than the spurs did) in the playoffs. 2010 i guess i can see because of the carry job in the regular season but he choked pretty bad vs the celtics.

Duncan won 60 games with a pretty meh cast and then elevated substantially in the playoffs to lead the spurs to a title without another superstar. That almost never happens. Don't think either have 6 years that match up

[1993Playoffs]

???

what 5-6 seasons do jordan and lebron have that are as good or surpassing when duncan hard-carried a team to a title?

Jordan: 88-93
Lebron: 09, 10, 12-13, 16-17

I wouldn’t put all them above peak Duncan, and some maybe even a tad below but it doesn’t sound crazy to put those seasons on that level.

putting 5 jordan years ahead seems kind of sus. Jordan joined a 30 win team and didn't cross past 50 wins until 90

13 also seems kinda wierd since the heat didn't do much better in the regular season than the spurs despite having wade/bosh and lebron/heat struggled mightily(even more than the spurs did) in the playoffs. 2010 i guess i can see because of the carry job in the regular season but he choked pretty bad vs the celtics.

Duncan won 60 games with a pretty meh cast and then elevated substantially in the playoffs to lead the spurs to a title without another superstar. That almost never happens. Don't think either have 6 years that match up

The Bulls won 50 games in 1988

And 13 LeBron over peak Duncan is “weird” to you? I would think most would take LeBron

[OhayoKD]

Jordan: 88-93
Lebron: 09, 10, 12-13, 16-17

I wouldn’t put all them above peak Duncan, and some maybe even a tad below but it doesn’t sound crazy to put those seasons on that level.

putting 5 jordan years ahead seems kind of sus. Jordan joined a 30 win team and didn't cross past 50 wins until 90

13 also seems kinda wierd since the heat didn't do much better in the regular season than the spurs despite having wade/bosh and lebron/heat struggled mightily(even more than the spurs did) in the playoffs. 2010 i guess i can see because of the carry job in the regular season but he choked pretty bad vs the celtics.

Duncan won 60 games with a pretty meh cast and then elevated substantially in the playoffs to lead the spurs to a title without another superstar. That almost never happens. Don't think either have 6 years that match up

The Bulls won 50 games in 1988

And 13 LeBron over peak Duncan is “weird” to you? I would think most would take LeBron

I said "cross past".

It's wierd cause lebron had a superstar and an all star in 2013 but didn't do signficantly better than duncan's team. So if he's better, how do you explain him not being able to do better with more help?

[Dooley]

FWIW I do think that Duncan's offense eliminates him from GOAT status but I think the same is basically true of everyone except Lebron and MJ, it's not really a slight on Duncan

???

what 5-6 seasons do jordan and lebron have that are as good or surpassing when duncan hard-carried a team to a title?

Jordan: 88-93
Lebron: 09, 10, 12-13, 16-17

I wouldn’t put all them above peak Duncan, and some maybe even a tad below but it doesn’t sound crazy to put those seasons on that level.

putting 5 jordan years ahead seems kind of sus. Jordan joined a 30 win team and didn't cross past 50 wins until 90

13 also seems kinda wierd since the heat didn't do much better in the regular season than the spurs despite having wade/bosh and lebron/heat struggled mightily(even more than the spurs did) in the playoffs. 2010 i guess i can see because of the carry job in the regular season but he choked pretty bad vs the celtics.

Duncan won 60 games with a pretty meh cast and then elevated substantially in the playoffs to lead the spurs to a title without another superstar. That almost never happens. Don't think either have 6 years that match up

I don't think the 2013 Spurs had a meh supporting cast. Tony Parker was at his peak pretty much, Manu was still really good, Danny Green and Kawhi were super role players, and Tiago Splitter and Boris Diaw were also present. A high-level scoring guard, 3 great defensive role-playing wings who can shoot, and some decent rotation bigs is the opposite of a meh supporting cast.

Duncan was really, really good that year and all credit to him. I have him as the 3rd or 4th best player in the league that year which is insane for a 36-year-old. But that was a very well-balanced and deep team around him as well.

[OhayoKD]

FWIW I do think that Duncan's offense eliminates him from GOAT status but I think the same is basically true of everyone except Lebron and MJ, it's not really a slight on Duncan

Jordan: 88-93
Lebron: 09, 10, 12-13, 16-17

I wouldn’t put all them above peak Duncan, and some maybe even a tad below but it doesn’t sound crazy to put those seasons on that level.

putting 5 jordan years ahead seems kind of sus. Jordan joined a 30 win team and didn't cross past 50 wins until 90

13 also seems kinda wierd since the heat didn't do much better in the regular season than the spurs despite having wade/bosh and lebron/heat struggled mightily(even more than the spurs did) in the playoffs. 2010 i guess i can see because of the carry job in the regular season but he choked pretty bad vs the celtics.

Duncan won 60 games with a pretty meh cast and then elevated substantially in the playoffs to lead the spurs to a title without another superstar. That almost never happens. Don't think either have 6 years that match up

I don't think the 2013 Spurs had a meh supporting cast. Tony Parker was at his peak pretty much, Manu was still really good, Danny Green and Kawhi were super role players, and Tiago Splitter and Boris Diaw were also present. A high-level scoring guard, 3 great defensive role-playing wings who can shoot, and some decent rotation bigs is the opposite of a meh supporting cast.

Duncan was really, really good that year and all credit to him. I have him as the 3rd or 4th best player in the league that year which is insane for a 36-year-old. But that was a very well-balanced and deep team around him as well.

i was talking about 2003. Don't really see how winning 50 games with a 30 win team(basically jordan's prime) or winning 66 games with a superstar+an all star(2013 lebron) is more impressive than duncan winning 60 games with old drob+scraps and then winning the championship while getting way better in the playoffs in ever catergory

[Dooley]

FWIW I do think that Duncan's offense eliminates him from GOAT status but I think the same is basically true of everyone except Lebron and MJ, it's not really a slight on Duncan

putting 5 jordan years ahead seems kind of sus. Jordan joined a 30 win team and didn't cross past 50 wins until 90

13 also seems kinda wierd since the heat didn't do much better in the regular season than the spurs despite having wade/bosh and lebron/heat struggled mightily(even more than the spurs did) in the playoffs. 2010 i guess i can see because of the carry job in the regular season but he choked pretty bad vs the celtics.

Duncan won 60 games with a pretty meh cast and then elevated substantially in the playoffs to lead the spurs to a title without another superstar. That almost never happens. Don't think either have 6 years that match up

I don't think the 2013 Spurs had a meh supporting cast. Tony Parker was at his peak pretty much, Manu was still really good, Danny Green and Kawhi were super role players, and Tiago Splitter and Boris Diaw were also present. A high-level scoring guard, 3 great defensive role-playing wings who can shoot, and some decent rotation bigs is the opposite of a meh supporting cast.

Duncan was really, really good that year and all credit to him. I have him as the 3rd or 4th best player in the league that year which is insane for a 36-year-old. But that was a very well-balanced and deep team around him as well.

i was talking about 2003. Don't really see how winning 50 games with a 30 win team(basically jordan's prime) or winning 66 games with a superstar+an all star(2013 lebron) is more impressive than duncan winning 60 games with old drob+scraps and then winning the championship while getting way better in the playoffs in ever catergory

Oh whoops! I think I got my wires crossed bc of the discussion about how the 2013 heat weren't better than the 2013 spurs, sorry.

I think it's definitely reasonable to say there aren't all that many seasons better than Duncan 2003 from any player. I don't think the gap between 2013 Lebron and 2003 Duncan is as big as you do - for one thing I'm honestly not sure Wade was still a superstar in 2013 - but yeah it's obviously an all-time great performance from Duncan.

[OhayoKD]

FWIW I do think that Duncan's offense eliminates him from GOAT status but I think the same is basically true of everyone except Lebron and MJ, it's not really a slight on Duncan


I don't think the 2013 Spurs had a meh supporting cast. Tony Parker was at his peak pretty much, Manu was still really good, Danny Green and Kawhi were super role players, and Tiago Splitter and Boris Diaw were also present. A high-level scoring guard, 3 great defensive role-playing wings who can shoot, and some decent rotation bigs is the opposite of a meh supporting cast.

Duncan was really, really good that year and all credit to him. I have him as the 3rd or 4th best player in the league that year which is insane for a 36-year-old. But that was a very well-balanced and deep team around him as well.

i was talking about 2003. Don't really see how winning 50 games with a 30 win team(basically jordan's prime) or winning 66 games with a superstar+an all star(2013 lebron) is more impressive than duncan winning 60 games with old drob+scraps and then winning the championship while getting way better in the playoffs in ever catergory

Oh whoops! I think I got my wires crossed bc of the discussion about how the 2013 heat weren't better than the 2013 spurs, sorry.

I think it's definitely reasonable to say there aren't all that many seasons better than Duncan 2003 from any player. I don't think the gap between 2013 Lebron and 2003 Duncan is as big as you do - for one thing I'm honestly not sure Wade was still a superstar in 2013 - but yeah it's obviously an all-time great performance from Duncan.

i think wade was at least a superstar for most of the regular season. Maybe he wasn't that in the playoffs.