2023 Free Agents as of 7/7 - from alphatron10 GB

[FloridaMan78]

This is getting ridiculous. You basically outlined 2 sides not coming together on contract terms as the reason trades happen, then follow it up with that last line to hold out some hope of cap holds being it.

This has officially entered into "catching lobs is a skill" for me. You can have this one. It's obviously not registering.

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The point is with a smaller cap hold you can let the market dictate how much one gets paid in restricted free agency while still going after other free agents with cap space. With a large one like Killian you have to renounce the player if you can’t come to an agreement. It’s obviously not registering with you.

With a smaller cap hold wouldn't you need to renounce that guy too if you can't come to an agreement?


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If Killian had a small cap hold we could let him go into restricted free agency. His small cap hold wouldn’t effect us going after other free agents. And we could probably still match any reasonable offer.

[DetroitSho]

The point is with a smaller cap hold you can let the market dictate how much one gets paid in restricted free agency while still going after other free agents with cap space. With a large one like Killian you have to renounce the player if you can’t come to an agreement. It’s obviously not registering with you.

With a smaller cap hold wouldn't you need to renounce that guy too if you can't come to an agreement?


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If Killian had a small cap hold we could let him go into restricted free agency. His small cap hold wouldn’t effect us going after other free agents. And we could probably still match any reasonable offer.

You're basically talking out of both sides right now. Matching a "reasonable offer" means absolutely nothing, it's just a talking point. Somehow he's not worth much but at the same time in danger of having a big enough offer thrown to him that we wouldn't match. Huh?

If you've already drawn a line in the sand at $10 million/year max, it doesn't matter if Killian's cap hold was $2 million, you're not matching a 3 year $39 million offer. In sum, THE CAP HOLD MEANS NOTHING. It's the actual/potential contract terms that matter. J.H.C.

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[FloridaMan78]

With a smaller cap hold wouldn't you need to renounce that guy too if you can't come to an agreement?


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If Killian had a small cap hold we could let him go into restricted free agency. His small cap hold wouldn’t effect us going after other free agents. And we could probably still match any reasonable offer.

You're basically talking out of both sides right now. Matching a "reasonable offer" means absolutely nothing, it's just a talking point. Somehow he's not worth much but at the same time in danger of having a big enough offer thrown to him that we wouldn't match. Huh?

If you've already drawn a line in the sand at $10 million/year max, it doesn't matter if Killian's cap hold was $2 million, you're not matching a 3 year $39 million offer. In sum, THE CAP HOLD MEANS NOTHING. It's the actual/potential contract terms that matter. J.H.C.

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Who's gonna offer Killian 3 yrs 39 mil?

The point is if Killian had a smaller cap hold you could wait out all of free agency for someone to offer Killian a contract.

I don't think Killian is an awful player. I think his 22 mil cap hold is awful and can become a deterrent to holding on to him through free agency if you want to sign other players.

Cap hold matters for the other players you can target. It limits your options.

I'm really not understanding what you mean.

It seems like you're completely ignoring the benefits of having control over a restricted free agent and the leverage that the team has.

[Pharaoh]

The point is with a smaller cap hold you can let the market dictate how much one gets paid in restricted free agency while still going after other free agents with cap space. With a large one like Killian you have to renounce the player if you can’t come to an agreement. It’s obviously not registering with you.

With a smaller cap hold wouldn't you need to renounce that guy too if you can't come to an agreement?


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If Killian had a small cap hold we could let him go into restricted free agency. His small cap hold wouldn’t effect us going after other free agents. And we could probably still match any reasonable offer.

His cap hold or any other cap hold won't effect anything though.

The cap hold is merely a place holder

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[FloridaMan78]

With a smaller cap hold wouldn't you need to renounce that guy too if you can't come to an agreement?


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If Killian had a small cap hold we could let him go into restricted free agency. His small cap hold wouldn’t effect us going after other free agents. And we could probably still match any reasonable offer.

His cap hold or any other cap hold won't effect anything though.

The cap hold is merely a place holder

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Right, a place holder that counts against our cap space. We will have cap space. We should be competing by then and be going after free agents. If we don't renounce him or have an extension in place, his cap hold will count against our cap space.

I think he is a decent player. If his cap hold was smaller, we could let free agency play out and still go after other free agents, and still resign him or him take the qualifying offer.

Take Saddiq for example. His cap hold is only 13 mil. We can't agree on an extension so we let him become a restricted free agent. Lets say we have 33 mil in cap space and we want Miles Turner at 20 mil. We could offer Turner a 20 mil contract. We can also go all through free agency with the option to match on Saddiq.

Now put Killian in the same situation. His 22 mil cap hold counts against the 33 mil leaving 11 mil in space. We would have to renounce or sign Killian in order to also sign Turner. Less options available.

[whitehops]

Right, a place holder that counts against our cap space. We will have cap space. We should be competing by then and be going after free agents. If we don't renounce him or have an extension in place, his cap hold will count against our cap space.

I think he is a decent player. If his cap hold was smaller, we could let free agency play out and still go after other free agents, and still resign him or him take the qualifying offer.

Take Saddiq for example. His cap hold is only 13 mil. We can't agree on an extension so we let him become a restricted free agent. Lets say we have 33 mil in cap space and we want Miles Turner at 20 mil. We could offer Turner a 20 mil contract. We can also go all through free agency with the option to match on Saddiq.

Now put Killian in the same situation. His 22 mil cap hold counts against the 33 mil leaving 11 mil in space. We would have to renounce or sign Killian in order to also sign Turner. Less options available.

We would just do what we did with bagley this off season. Essentially go into free agency knowing whether or not you want to retain them. If you don’t, just renounce his rights right away. If you do, get a deal done at the very start of free agency to get rid of his cap hold and replace it with his lower salary number.

[FloridaMan78]

Right, a place holder that counts against our cap space. We will have cap space. We should be competing by then and be going after free agents. If we don't renounce him or have an extension in place, his cap hold will count against our cap space.

I think he is a decent player. If his cap hold was smaller, we could let free agency play out and still go after other free agents, and still resign him or him take the qualifying offer.

Take Saddiq for example. His cap hold is only 13 mil. We can't agree on an extension so we let him become a restricted free agent. Lets say we have 33 mil in cap space and we want Miles Turner at 20 mil. We could offer Turner a 20 mil contract. We can also go all through free agency with the option to match on Saddiq.

Now put Killian in the same situation. His 22 mil cap hold counts against the 33 mil leaving 11 mil in space. We would have to renounce or sign Killian in order to also sign Turner. Less options available.

We would just do what we did with bagley this off season. Essentially go into free agency knowing whether or not you want to retain them. If you don’t, just renounce his rights right away. If you do, get a deal done at the very start of free agency to get rid of his cap hold and replace it with his lower salary number.

Yea we could, but you lose an asset. Which if you think if he just totally sucks isn’t a big deal. If you think he has some value then that’s a loss. IMO that’s why players like Bagley get traded before this happens and why it will probably happen with Killian.

[whitehops]

We would just do what we did with bagley this off season. Essentially go into free agency knowing whether or not you want to retain them. If you don’t, just renounce his rights right away. If you do, get a deal done at the very start of free agency to get rid of his cap hold and replace it with his lower salary number.

Yea we could, but you lose an asset. Which if you think if he just totally sucks isn’t a big deal. If you think he has some value then that’s a loss. IMO that’s why players like Bagley get traded before this happens and why it will probably happen with Killian.

they would have the week during the moratorium to hash out a deal to keep hayes AND still talk to other free agents. if they earmark $10M or whatever on hayes' new deal then they can go forward assuming they'll have the extra cap space.

the only thing is they'd have to sign hayes' deal as soon as free agency officially opens to get rid of the cap hold. it's literally what we did with bagley this off season and it didn't prevent us from making trades to use cap space, those trades just became official after bagley physically signed the contract.

i think teams that trade guys going into free agency are players that the team has no interest in bringing back (like SAC with bagley) so they just try to get whatever value they can for them.

[DetroitSho]

If Killian had a small cap hold we could let him go into restricted free agency. His small cap hold wouldn’t effect us going after other free agents. And we could probably still match any reasonable offer.

You're basically talking out of both sides right now. Matching a "reasonable offer" means absolutely nothing, it's just a talking point. Somehow he's not worth much but at the same time in danger of having a big enough offer thrown to him that we wouldn't match. Huh?

If you've already drawn a line in the sand at $10 million/year max, it doesn't matter if Killian's cap hold was $2 million, you're not matching a 3 year $39 million offer. In sum, THE CAP HOLD MEANS NOTHING. It's the actual/potential contract terms that matter. J.H.C.

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Who's gonna offer Killian 3 yrs 39 mil?

The point is if Killian had a smaller cap hold you could wait out all of free agency for someone to offer Killian a contract.

I don't think Killian is an awful player. I think his 22 mil cap hold is awful and can become a deterrent to holding on to him through free agency if you want to sign other players.

Cap hold matters for the other players you can target. It limits your options.

I'm really not understanding what you mean.

It seems like you're completely ignoring the benefits of having control over a restricted free agent and the leverage that the team has.

At some point I really would love for you to grasp the concept of HYPOTHETICALS. If you think it's absurd Killian being offered $13 million a year then you're literally proving my point and don't even realize it.

It's weird for you to have a need to have restricted rights over a player but at the same time not even think he'd be offered more than the max amount you're willing to pay.

Do you think he'd get an offer for more than $10 million/year? Even if he did, it doesn't matter because that's where you've HYPOTHETICALLY drawn your line in the sand so you're not matching anything above that. SOOOO, AGAIN, you can renounce his rights and just leave $10 million in space for him while he's out in the market shopping. Keep in mind, when a player is unrestricted, it gives teams less incentive to overpay that player just to get the current team to not match. Doing that might even lessen the offers he'd receive.

At this point either cognitive dissonance is in full effect or you're still not grasping cap holds and you're giving it way more power than necessary.

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[DetroitSho]

We would just do what we did with bagley this off season. Essentially go into free agency knowing whether or not you want to retain them. If you don’t, just renounce his rights right away. If you do, get a deal done at the very start of free agency to get rid of his cap hold and replace it with his lower salary number.

Yea we could, but you lose an asset. Which if you think if he just totally sucks isn’t a big deal. If you think he has some value then that’s a loss. IMO that’s why players like Bagley get traded before this happens and why it will probably happen with Killian.

they would have the week during the moratorium to hash out a deal to keep hayes AND still talk to other free agents. if they earmark $10M or whatever on hayes' new deal then they can go forward assuming they'll have the extra cap space.

the only thing is they'd have to sign hayes' deal as soon as free agency officially opens to get rid of the cap hold. it's literally what we did with bagley this off season and it didn't prevent us from making trades to use cap space, those trades just became official after bagley physically signed the contract.

i think teams that trade guys going into free agency are players that the team has no interest in bringing back (like SAC with bagley) so they just try to get whatever value they can for them.

Nah man, SAC traded Bagley because of his cap hold bro. It had nothing to do with his 3 1/2 tumultuous years there, his underwhelming play, father meddling with things, etc. It was his CAP HOLD.

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[FloridaMan78]

We would just do what we did with bagley this off season. Essentially go into free agency knowing whether or not you want to retain them. If you don’t, just renounce his rights right away. If you do, get a deal done at the very start of free agency to get rid of his cap hold and replace it with his lower salary number.

Yea we could, but you lose an asset. Which if you think if he just totally sucks isn’t a big deal. If you think he has some value then that’s a loss. IMO that’s why players like Bagley get traded before this happens and why it will probably happen with Killian.

they would have the week during the moratorium to hash out a deal to keep hayes AND still talk to other free agents. if they earmark $10M or whatever on hayes' new deal then they can go forward assuming they'll have the extra cap space.

the only thing is they'd have to sign hayes' deal as soon as free agency officially opens to get rid of the cap hold. it's literally what we did with bagley this off season and it didn't prevent us from making trades to use cap space, those trades just became official after bagley physically signed the contract.

i think teams that trade guys going into free agency are players that the team has no interest in bringing back (like SAC with bagley) so they just try to get whatever value they can for them.

Right. The only difference is timing. If Killian had a smaller cap hold like Bey we wouldn’t have to sign him immediately after the moratorium. It is only if we couldn’t come to an agreement early.

I understand that it doesn’t seem like a big deal. But it is still a factor. IMO that gives leverage to the team in negotiations.

[FloridaMan78]

You're basically talking out of both sides right now. Matching a "reasonable offer" means absolutely nothing, it's just a talking point. Somehow he's not worth much but at the same time in danger of having a big enough offer thrown to him that we wouldn't match. Huh?

If you've already drawn a line in the sand at $10 million/year max, it doesn't matter if Killian's cap hold was $2 million, you're not matching a 3 year $39 million offer. In sum, THE CAP HOLD MEANS NOTHING. It's the actual/potential contract terms that matter. J.H.C.

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Who's gonna offer Killian 3 yrs 39 mil?

The point is if Killian had a smaller cap hold you could wait out all of free agency for someone to offer Killian a contract.

I don't think Killian is an awful player. I think his 22 mil cap hold is awful and can become a deterrent to holding on to him through free agency if you want to sign other players.

Cap hold matters for the other players you can target. It limits your options.

I'm really not understanding what you mean.

It seems like you're completely ignoring the benefits of having control over a restricted free agent and the leverage that the team has.

At some point I really would love for you to grasp the concept of HYPOTHETICALS. If you think it's absurd Killian being offered $13 million a year then you're literally proving my point and don't even realize it.

It's weird for you to have a need to have restricted rights over a player but at the same time not even think he'd be offered more than the max amount you're willing to pay.

Do you think he'd get an offer for more than $10 million/year? Even if he did, it doesn't matter because that's where you've HYPOTHETICALLY drawn your line in the sand so you're not matching anything above that. SOOOO, AGAIN, you can renounce his rights and just leave $10 million in space for him while he's out in the market shopping. Keep in mind, when a player is unrestricted, it gives teams less incentive to overpay that player just to get the current team to not match. Doing that might even lessen the offers he'd receive.

At this point either cognitive dissonance is in full effect or you're still not grasping cap holds and you're giving it way more power than necessary.

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It seems as though you are saying cap holds don’t matter at all. And I disagree. That’s all I’m saying.

[DetroitSho]

Who's gonna offer Killian 3 yrs 39 mil?

The point is if Killian had a smaller cap hold you could wait out all of free agency for someone to offer Killian a contract.

I don't think Killian is an awful player. I think his 22 mil cap hold is awful and can become a deterrent to holding on to him through free agency if you want to sign other players.

Cap hold matters for the other players you can target. It limits your options.

I'm really not understanding what you mean.

It seems like you're completely ignoring the benefits of having control over a restricted free agent and the leverage that the team has.

At some point I really would love for you to grasp the concept of HYPOTHETICALS. If you think it's absurd Killian being offered $13 million a year then you're literally proving my point and don't even realize it.

It's weird for you to have a need to have restricted rights over a player but at the same time not even think he'd be offered more than the max amount you're willing to pay.

Do you think he'd get an offer for more than $10 million/year? Even if he did, it doesn't matter because that's where you've HYPOTHETICALLY drawn your line in the sand so you're not matching anything above that. SOOOO, AGAIN, you can renounce his rights and just leave $10 million in space for him while he's out in the market shopping. Keep in mind, when a player is unrestricted, it gives teams less incentive to overpay that player just to get the current team to not match. Doing that might even lessen the offers he'd receive.

At this point either cognitive dissonance is in full effect or you're still not grasping cap holds and you're giving it way more power than necessary.

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It seems as though you are saying cap holds don’t matter at all. And I disagree. That’s all I’m saying.

Cap holds matter in relation to the order you do things. And I've yet to deny that. You seem to think they matter to the extent of whether trade a guy before free agency or not, and that makes no logical sense.

If the Kings traded Bagley because of his cap hold then the Pistons certainly shouldn't have been the one to take him. If he's not worth $27 million on the Kings, he's not worth that on Detroit.

But that wasn't the factor. The factor was, was both sides comfortable in resuming the relationship going forward and is both sides comfortable with the actual contract terms it would take.

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[FloridaMan78]

At some point I really would love for you to grasp the concept of HYPOTHETICALS. If you think it's absurd Killian being offered $13 million a year then you're literally proving my point and don't even realize it.

It's weird for you to have a need to have restricted rights over a player but at the same time not even think he'd be offered more than the max amount you're willing to pay.

Do you think he'd get an offer for more than $10 million/year? Even if he did, it doesn't matter because that's where you've HYPOTHETICALLY drawn your line in the sand so you're not matching anything above that. SOOOO, AGAIN, you can renounce his rights and just leave $10 million in space for him while he's out in the market shopping. Keep in mind, when a player is unrestricted, it gives teams less incentive to overpay that player just to get the current team to not match. Doing that might even lessen the offers he'd receive.

At this point either cognitive dissonance is in full effect or you're still not grasping cap holds and you're giving it way more power than necessary.

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It seems as though you are saying cap holds don’t matter at all. And I disagree. That’s all I’m saying.

Cap holds matter in relation to the order you do things. And I've yet to deny that. You seem to think they matter to the extent of whether trade a guy before free agency or not, and that makes no logical sense.

If the Kings traded Bagley because of his cap hold then the Pistons certainly shouldn't have been the one to take him. If he's not worth $27 million on the Kings, he's not worth that on Detroit.

But that wasn't the factor. The factor was, was both sides comfortable in resuming the relationship going forward and is both sides comfortable with the actual contract terms it would take.

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I think the order a team has to do things in free agency matters and influences decisions. A high cap hold influences the order a team has to do things, a smaller cap hold allows teams more control in the timing that they can do things.

I think that matters.

[DetroitSho]

It seems as though you are saying cap holds don’t matter at all. And I disagree. That’s all I’m saying.

Cap holds matter in relation to the order you do things. And I've yet to deny that. You seem to think they matter to the extent of whether trade a guy before free agency or not, and that makes no logical sense.

If the Kings traded Bagley because of his cap hold then the Pistons certainly shouldn't have been the one to take him. If he's not worth $27 million on the Kings, he's not worth that on Detroit.

But that wasn't the factor. The factor was, was both sides comfortable in resuming the relationship going forward and is both sides comfortable with the actual contract terms it would take.

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I think the order a team has to do things in free agency matters and influences decisions. A high cap hold influences the order a team has to do things, a smaller cap hold allows teams more control in the timing that they can do things.

I think that matters.

So wait, you took me giving you a specific scenario and saying in that situation a cap hold doesn't matter and are now being disingenuous by reducing this to an argument of it "matters vs. doesn't matter?"

Did you forget the fact that you said that you'd trade a player a whole year earlier just to avoid a cap hold? Let's stick to your actual argument so we can see if you've actually learned something. After having been provided facts and scenarios by multiple posters about the (non)importance of a cap hold, are you still holding to teams (really just you) trading players because of an upcoming cap hold?

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[FloridaMan78]

Cap holds matter in relation to the order you do things. And I've yet to deny that. You seem to think they matter to the extent of whether trade a guy before free agency or not, and that makes no logical sense.

If the Kings traded Bagley because of his cap hold then the Pistons certainly shouldn't have been the one to take him. If he's not worth $27 million on the Kings, he's not worth that on Detroit.

But that wasn't the factor. The factor was, was both sides comfortable in resuming the relationship going forward and is both sides comfortable with the actual contract terms it would take.

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I think the order a team has to do things in free agency matters and influences decisions. A high cap hold influences the order a team has to do things, a smaller cap hold allows teams more control in the timing that they can do things.

I think that matters.

So wait, you took me giving you a specific scenario and saying in that situation a cap hold doesn't matter and are now being disingenuous by reducing this to an argument of it "matters vs. doesn't matter?"

Did you forget the fact that you said that you'd trade a player a whole year earlier just to avoid a cap hold? Let's stick to your actual argument so we can see if you've actually learned something. After having been provided facts and scenarios by multiple posters about the (non)importance of a cap hold, are you still holding to teams (really just you) trading players because of an upcoming cap hold?

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There’s no way to know exact reasons players were traded. We can’t get into the minds and don’t know the whole story. I am presuming his cap hold may have had some influence in the trade. You are assuming it had no influence what so ever.

Killian’s 22 mil cap hold could have an influence on the possibility of trading him. You are saying it doesn’t. I disagree.

[DetroitSho]

I think the order a team has to do things in free agency matters and influences decisions. A high cap hold influences the order a team has to do things, a smaller cap hold allows teams more control in the timing that they can do things.

I think that matters.

So wait, you took me giving you a specific scenario and saying in that situation a cap hold doesn't matter and are now being disingenuous by reducing this to an argument of it "matters vs. doesn't matter?"

Did you forget the fact that you said that you'd trade a player a whole year earlier just to avoid a cap hold? Let's stick to your actual argument so we can see if you've actually learned something. After having been provided facts and scenarios by multiple posters about the (non)importance of a cap hold, are you still holding to teams (really just you) trading players because of an upcoming cap hold?

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There’s no way to know exact reasons players were traded. We can’t get into the minds and don’t know the whole story. I am presuming his cap hold may have had some influence in the trade. You are assuming it had no influence what so ever.

Killian’s 22 mil cap hold could have an influence on the possibility of trading him. You are saying it doesn’t. I disagree.

If Troy Weaver or any GM for that matter trades a player because of their cap hold and not their ability to re-sign the player they need to fired on the spot because that's just idiotic beyond measure.

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[bstein14]

Forget the cap hold, its the $10+ million qualifying offer that you can't offer to him for a year based on what we've seen. He's a near minimum salary guy so that makes it hard to keep him as a RFA. If anything, he hasn't shown enough to offering him a qualifying offer to keep him around his 5th year as this point. I've mentioned before, even if Weaver wants to keep him as a low MPG backup PG to try and keep developing him into his mid 20s, he's almost certainly not going to be someone we lose on the open market even if we decline his 4th year team option for $7+ million.

[Sort]

With nothing happening in the NBA, curiosity got me for what the Piston faithful are discussing. Cade's future stats and earnings and...Killian Hayes. His career has had some moments of solid defensive moments and some excellent passes, but mostly, fodder for online discussions.

My take is simple: his cap hold won't matter, because even with his few NBA skills, he either can shoot an outside shot or he can't this season. That will likely determine whether he has a real future beyond third string point guard and eventual European league.

Likelihood is that Pistons will renounce him. Hope not because he blossoms, but I don't see any real way you can have expectations to the contrary.

[whitehops]

My take is simple: his cap hold won't matter, because even with his few NBA skills, he either can shoot an outside shot or he can't this season. That will likely determine whether he has a real future beyond third string point guard and eventual European league.

Likelihood is that Pistons will renounce him. Hope not because he blossoms, but I don't see any real way you can have expectations to the contrary.

yeah my guess is that they decline his fourth year option before the season starts and then he has this season to prove himself. they can always bring him back if he steps his game up but don't have to commit to another two years with him.