Jerry West pretty much destroys JJ Redick

[NBA4Lyfe]

Are we going to sit here and pretend they didn't play against janitors and plumbers because we should "respect our elders?"

What JJ said was the truth. The truth is uncomfortable.

it only looks that way, because the league made the game easier on todays stars. the early 2000's we saw baskjetball scores of 61-49

back in larry and magics day, they knew how to run offense, and set plays. Everything today is just screen and roll

[Nate505]

Are we going to sit here and pretend they didn't play against janitors and plumbers because we should "respect our elders?"

What JJ said was the truth. The truth is uncomfortable.

The idea they were plumbers is extremely stupid. Like really really really stupid.

[dhsilv2]

Jerry West comparing his era to Bobs is the biggest problem....

[CIN-C-STAR]

Are we going to sit here and pretend they didn't play against janitors and plumbers because we should "respect our elders?"

What JJ said was the truth. The truth is uncomfortable.

The idea they were plumbers is extremely stupid. Like really really really stupid.

As is the idea that being a plumber means you were automatically not that good at basketball.
I'm trying to figure out the logic behind the sentiment that if you worked a second job to take care of your family, you suck at basketball
Literally makes no sense. It's as logical as saying Draymond Green is a podcaster and therefore he isn't good at basketball. Or Michael Jordan was an actor and brand spokesperson, and therefore wasn't really that good at basketball.
It's funny how many people are defending the "plumbers and firefighters" comment as analysis, when it's plainly moronic and not insightful at all, not to mention not accurate as you said.

[Pennebaker]

"Jerry West pretty much destroys JJ Redick" by not denying what Redick said and instead attacking Redick's stats.

Makes total sense.

West has no argument. Redick is factually and historically correct in that some NBA players in Cousy's era were not full time basketball players and had part time jobs. Why? Because there was no money in basketball.

Bob Cousy was the league's highest paid player in 1959 and he only made $25,000 per year which is the equivalent of $253,000 in 2022 (at the same time, in baseball, Ted Williams was making $135,000 per year which is $1.4 million today - and MLB players of this era also had part time jobs for the same reason). Most NBA players made far less than Cousy so they did what they had to do. Yes, some were plumbers.

Today players are dedicated to the game year round and they continue this from childhood to adulthood and they are paid tens of millions of dollars to perfect their body and their craft.

Obviously considering the circumstances the level of competition in Cousy's time was significantly lower than it is today. Why would West even bother disputing this? Pride and ego.

[Wallace_Wallace]

Playing ability has nothing to do with evaluating. By West's theory, Michael Jordan & Larry Bird would have been building dynasties with their respective teams, but they never won a ring as executives (Wizards, Hornets, Pacers)? Dumars did, but he lost on more stupid trades/signings than the smart ones.

The plumber thing is disrespectful, and a lot of former players to say that today's game actually deteriorated is also stupid. Just appreciate each era's existence, you don't have to like everything you see, but respect it.

[Johnny Bball]

Holy ****, now you cant be dedicated to a job because its only 100k-250k/year? So much ignorance and entitlement.

[Wallace_Wallace]

JJ wouldn't last in the 'Plumber and fireman' era.

He was a scrub in the 00's and only found relevance in the league as the it transitioned to the 3 ball and defensive rules changed. Even then, JJ was only a role player. He made that comment as if he could survive in an earlier era. If someone else said it, like a Lebron, sure. But JJ Reddick needs to learn his place when taking shots at older eras.

JJ averaged nearly 30 in his senior year of college — he’d have been deadly if he played in the 60s & 70s.

Well that's only if 00s JJ Reddick was to teleport into the league in the 60s and 70s, however if he grew up in that time he would have learned to play the game the way they played it back then. So there's no guarantee that his progress in the league would be any better or worse. We don't know because well obviously he's from a different era.

Then past players should stop saying that they would automatically thrive today's game, it works the same way you know.
"I could average 60 and every player would foul out every game." Comments like this are happening more often this way than players today commenting about the past. No Shaq, he could be grasping for air after being hunted on pick and rolls possession after possession. Also, we can't guarantee that he won't be fouling out every game because he averaged 5.1 fouls per 100 possession, that's him without having to guard on the perimeter.

JJ Reddick would have seen as a bigger Louie Dampier the way he scored at Duke.

[Pennebaker]

Holy ****, now you cant be dedicated to a job because its only 100k-250k/year? So much ignorance and entitlement.

How can you dedicate all of your time to one job if you have two jobs? It's not physically possible.

If you believe in Gladwell's 10,000 hour rule (it takes 10,000 hours of intensive practice to achieve mastery of complex skills) then who do you think will master something faster, the person who only does one thing, or the person who splits their time between multiple things?

Who was likely to have faced more masters, Cousy or Redick? The answer is Redick.

The percentage of masters in the game is higher today than it was in 1959 simply due to economics i.e. it pays to master basketball today whereas it did not pay to master basketball in 1959.

[SunsLyf3]

Yawn.

The best NBA minds are role players cause stars are too full of themselves. You need both for a great product but Jerry West is just acting like a boomer. You can be a role player in the NBA but at the end of the day you're still one of the best 500 basketball players in the entire world.

When Redick has a track record of judging talent like Jerry West has an NBA GM, then we can talk.

And West didn't have the luxury of playing in a league where you barely touch an offensive player and get called for a foul or a three-point shot or get to enjoy first class travel and accommodations his accomplishments would be even more impressive.

No, he had the luxury of playing against average joes with less preparation. Smaller league as well. He's one of the greats but nothing that JJ Reddick said is wrong. Athletes are better nowadays and competition is tougher in terms of making it to the league. Anybody can make it not just the priviliged white folk like when things first began.

[SunsLyf3]

Yawn.

The best NBA minds are role players cause stars are too full of themselves. You need both for a great product but Jerry West is just acting like a boomer. You can be a role player in the NBA but at the end of the day you're still one of the best 500 basketball players in the entire world.

Well in this case the role player was full of himself for coming out and disrespecting the talent who guarded Bob Cousy and the other stars from that time period of NBA Basketball by calling them fire fighters, plumbers, etc. So all West is really saying is that who is JJ to disrespect role players from any era? He had a solid career, average over 10 points which is never a bad thing because it contributes well to a team, but that doesn't make it ok to go around being arrogant like this.

Is it disrespectful if its true?

[Fencer reregistered]

Frankly, that sounded to me as if West was conceding at least some of Redick's claimed facts, while taking strong umbrage at Redick's tone.

Exactly this IMO. He straight up acknowledged the point about the level of athletes then vs. now. I think what he took offense to was the suggestion that accomplishments from that era were not as impressive. Dominating an era is dominating an era. He was also pointing out that JJ had a place in the league in the backs of those players.

When he mentioned Cousy's name in that context, I wondered whether he'd go to the union-recognition story. As the story is commonly told today, the three players most credited with getting the union established and recognized by the owners were:

-- Bob Cousy, founder and first president.
-- Tom Heinsohn, second president, and organizer of the all-star game labor action that won recognition.
-- Jerry West, the non-Celtic always mentioned as standing up to his team owner's threats and participating in the half-time strike.

[PizzaSteve]

[streamable][/streamable]

I understand his point, but Jerry is basically saying only the greats can competently talk basketball. That’s just not true. If you make it to the league, your opinion on ball should be revered. But that’s just me. Keep doing your thing JJ!

I dont agree. Reading the full comment, I think he is saying that the elite level players of any era are comparable, as examples of the best that good genetics, crazy hard work, and coaching can achieve.

Given the human genome hasnt evolved, the top athelete across eras is going to be similar. Economics, level of globalism, lack of training facilities, nutrition, etc and other issues of an era might limit the number of people who achieve the elite level though, or improve play on the margins as people learn new techniques.

So I think he is saying that the 'average player' in todays era is likely better, given the global pool of talent, better education about what is possible, etc, but that those guys who stand out as memorable for decades are roughly similar. Only a few in each generation consistently dominate and stand out as elite. Its no shame on JJ that he isnt one of them, its just facts.

JJ is an example of a typical elite athelete, not a superstar generational, game changing type talent, which West was. Kinda like the difference between an olympian and a multiple gold medalist. Both are admirable. Only one is exceptional.

Yawn.

The best NBA minds are role players cause stars are too full of themselves. You need both for a great product but Jerry West is just acting like a boomer. You can be a role player in the NBA but at the end of the day you're still one of the best 500 basketball players in the entire world.

When Redick has a track record of judging talent like Jerry West has an NBA GM, then we can talk.

And West didn't have the luxury of playing in a league where you barely touch an offensive player and get called for a foul or a three-point shot or get to enjoy first class travel and accommodations his accomplishments would be even more impressive.

No, he had the luxury of playing against average joes with less preparation. Smaller league as well. He's one of the greats but nothing that JJ Reddick said is wrong. Athletes are better nowadays and competition is tougher in terms of making it to the league. Anybody can make it not just the priviliged white folk like when things first began.

This is just factually wrong. The reason is that all elite atheletes have to survive, which doesnt mean they are not good. Perfect example is the following: anyone who follows cycling know the story of the young emerging star of the current Tour de France, Jonas Vingegaard. A few years ago he was working in a factory packing fish to survive so he could train. He showed up at all comer races and broke records for one day routes, was discovered, and 2-3 years later is acknowledged as one of the the top cyclists in the world. Was he not an elite athelete because he was packing fish?

Calling these elite basketball players average joes because they worked and played is super disrespectful precisely because they were the best basketball players of their generation. The difference was how labor in the basketball world was screwed by management, not their atheletic skills.

[sikma42]

Why is it that young people think the previous generation was stupid and bad at pretty much everything? I mean... this never occurred to my generation to constantly have to rip down anyone and everyone older. What exactly were you people taught to act this way to think this?

This is what I don’t get. People picked up the euro step and gather step back in 1/2 years easy. This is in the middle of their career. Jerry West after watching modern bball moves would be more advanced than JJ Reddick in 6 months. JJ lacks talent and it would show in any era. He isn’t averaging 30 anywhere.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[Nate505]

"Jerry West pretty much destroys JJ Redick" by not denying what Redick said and instead attacking Redick's stats.

Makes total sense.

West has no argument. Redick is factually and historically correct in that some NBA players in Cousy's era were not full time basketball players and had part time jobs. Why? Because there was no money in basketball.

Bob Cousy was the league's highest paid player in 1959 and he only made $25,000 per year which is the equivalent of $253,000 in 2022 (at the same time, in baseball, Ted Williams was making $135,000 per year which is $1.4 million today - and MLB players of this era also had part time jobs for the same reason). Most NBA players made far less than Cousy so they did what they had to do. Yes, some were plumbers.
.

Even when the league started the average NBA salary was higher than the average median salary in the US at the time. They didn't have to have a second job to survive. They worked during the off season because, well, because that's what people did then. Work. Why not make more money when you aren't playing basketball? For most of them it's very likely that their NBA salary was their primary source of income during the career, and that none of them would skip a game and risk that salary because Mrs. Thompson down the street had a leaky faucet that needed fixing.

[PizzaSteve]

Holy ****, now you cant be dedicated to a job because its only 100k-250k/year? So much ignorance and entitlement.

How can you dedicate all of your time to one job if you have two jobs? It's not physically possible.

If you believe in Gladwell's 10,000 hour rule (it takes 10,000 hours of intensive practice to achieve mastery of complex skills) then who do you think will master something faster, the person who only does one thing, or the person who splits their time between multiple things?

Who was likely to have faced more masters, Cousy or Redick? The answer is Redick.

The percentage of masters in the game is higher today than it was in 1959 simply due to economics i.e. it pays to master basketball today whereas it did not pay to master basketball in 1959.

While this may be somewhat true, it is not a reason to disrepect those atheletes. There is no data to suggest these players didnt play enough in childhood through college playing time against good competition to achieve mastery of the game, as it had evolved, within their era.

In fact, modern NBA players often have less experience. GS's #2 pick has barely played beyond high school, and certainly not as much as someone with 4 years of college coaching and a pro career on the 50s, yet he will see significant NBA play this year and there are many out there just like him, developing while playing in the league. Might be less differences in relative defensive skills on the court era vs era than some think. Athleticism in the pool I would understand.

[Johnny Bball]

Holy ****, now you cant be dedicated to a job because its only 100k-250k/year? So much ignorance and entitlement.

How can you dedicate all of your time to one job if you have two jobs? It's not physically possible.

If you believe in Gladwell's 10,000 hour rule (it takes 10,000 hours of intensive practice to achieve mastery of complex skills) then who do you think will master something faster, the person who only does one thing, or the person who splits their time between multiple things?

Who was likely to have faced more masters, Cousy or Redick? The answer is Redick.

The percentage of masters in the game is higher today than it was in 1959 simply due to economics i.e. it pays to master basketball today whereas it did not pay to master basketball in 1959.

You understand Olympic athletes were the same way forever right?? Amateurs? NCAA... is school during the season not worse than a job offseason? But did they find time? Honestly some people make the weirdest **** up about their parent's or grandparents generation and I have no idea why there are these issues.

The last line... wtf. That's on you and your problem but that is not professional athlete's problem with their drive. Only for money. No.

[BostonCouchGM]

to break this down succinctly, Cousy overlapped with Oscar, West and Baylor and held his own. He was still one of the top players alongside them during that time despite being old and past his prime. Oscar, West and Baylor overlapped Havlicek, Maravich, McAdoo, White, Dr. J, and Barry and held their own despite age. Those players overlapped Isiah, Magic, Bird, Gervin, Dantley, etc and held their own despite age. Magic, Bird overlapped MJ, Barkley, Shaq and Malone and held their own. Malone and Barkley overlapped Kobe,and Lebron and held their own. Lebron is currently overlapping Luka. So you see how if each of these greats were able to overlap the next gen and hold their own that it stands that they'd hold their own with the players of today? Especially when you factor in the rule changes? JJ and his ilk are so dumb. JJ was his era's version of a milk man or plumber

[queridiculo]

I understand his point, but Jerry is basically saying only the greats can competently talk basketball. That’s just not true. If you make it to the league, your opinion on ball should be revered. But that’s just me. Keep doing your thing JJ!

Woosh, that‘s not what he said at all.

He called JJ a scrub, and told him to sit the **** down.

Reddick is this leagues equivalent of a plummer, he should praise the lord every day that somebody with as limited a skillset as him was able to make this much money.

In fact, he should probably thank all those firemen and plummers that paved the way for his disrespectful ass.

[LakersLegacy]

JJ should have won more for sure. It’s a different game then and now. Of course players are better now. But players should be even better today than they are because many aren’t that dedicated to winning and don’t care as much as players in the past despite $100,000,000.00 or more.

So Jerry and JJ both have points. Jerry is right that players should care more for how much access they have and $$$$$$ they have. JJ is right that players are better because of a bigger talent pool (also taller more athletic players today) more access to trainers, training facilities, mentors etc