Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!!

[Ghetto Gospel]

Speaking of Siakam, in his 2nd season he averaged 7.3ppg, 4.0rpg, 2.0apg and shot 51% from the field and 22% from three, he got 5 starts on the year and averaged 13/4/2. He got to start in his 3rd season, and we know what happened there, 16.9ppg, 6.9rpg, 3.1apg, and Obi's advanced stats have been better through his first two years than Siakam's were. Much like Obi, Siakam's stats were screaming out "hey, maybe this guy should play more?".

Imagine Siakam on this team with most of you debbie downer ass posters who can't do projections, you would have been saying he sucks he shoots 22% from three and no way should he start over Serge Ibaka who was 28 at the time and made $20 million to Siakam's $1.3 million.

siakam didn't start playing basketball until he was like 17, a few years before he was drafted. if you're a team trying to win, there was no way he should have been playing a ton of minutes off rip, he just got started learning how to play basketball

weren't you calling him a bad/unmoveable contract just last year?

What does that have to do with the Raptors deciding to start him in his 3rd season, despite the fact a more established player was in front of him?

And what does the second part have to do with what he was in his 2nd season? We're not talking about what he is, we're talking about what he was at the same time in his career as Obi. You would have been on here posting screenshots from Statmuse showing what he shot when he took more than 3 threes in a game.

because the key to improving shooting isn't playing time. it's more time spent shooting in the gym in the offseason and outside of games. they saw the shooting was good in practice and scrimmages and decided he'd be a really good offensive player. siakam at that time was already proven as a defensive player and obi is not..? unfortunately, defense is half the game, if obi was as good a defensive player and had the same tools, i'd be much more inclined to keep him, but he's not

[Clyde_Style]

i don't even believe all this stuff you guys say is really even about obi. you just all hate randle and want him replaced. who does that doesn't even really matter. obi is just here already.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

Rather than quibbling about exactly how meh Obi is as an asset, let me double back to what I think the Knicks ought to try to do with their few years players.

I do think a trade for Donny or SGA is a good idea, and can use up some of those protected firsts in an efficient way. I don't think the Knicks should give up anything not #1 protected for 2023. Maybe Victor turns out to be the worst possible love child of KP and Frank, but the chances of him being the best player to be drafted since at least Luka seem extremely high to me.

My view is that the Knicks should certainly trade away RJ .. and should be able to get a decent return for him .. although not from the Jazz, and Cam if that is possible, which is pretty doubtful. They should definitely try to keep IQ. And then Grimes, Obi and McBride in that order. About at even steps from IQ definitely try to keep (but of course let go in the right trade) down to basically don't care either way about Deuce.

Also try to base the salary on a trade for Donny or SGA on Rose rather than Fournier.

[whocares1]

Speaking of Siakam, in his 2nd season he averaged 7.3ppg, 4.0rpg, 2.0apg and shot 51% from the field and 22% from three, he got 5 starts on the year and averaged 13/4/2. He got to start in his 3rd season, and we know what happened there, 16.9ppg, 6.9rpg, 3.1apg, and Obi's advanced stats have been better through his first two years than Siakam's were. Much like Obi, Siakam's stats were screaming out "hey, maybe this guy should play more?".


Imagine Siakam on this team with most of you debbie downer ass posters who can't do projections, you would have been saying he sucks he shoots 22% from three and no way should he start over Serge Ibaka who was 28 at the time and made $20 million to Siakam's $1.3 million.

That's what's more frustrating than anything, when his per 36 checks out and he's clearly trending up developmentally.

"He's been in the league for an entire 2 seasons, and in strictly limited minutes he's not prime Amare and he's not shooting 45% from three"

It's the strangest thing, the PER 36 numbers were literally validated when he started, then they say it was the competition, knowing damn well if he hadn't played well they would have been saying he sucks

Yup a lot of the people that hate Obi would’ve told you he couldn’t score 20 points against the bench, let alone 42 points as a starter. The goal post gets moved bc that’s what happens when someone can’t be wrong.

[Madskillzz024]

Giving up Grimes and Obi isnt really giving up the house. Knicks would still have RJ, IQ, McBride, and Cam.

Pretty sure the Jazz Radio host even said the player return was meh but the picks return was a haul for Utah.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

siakam didn't start playing basketball until he was like 17, a few years before he was drafted. if you're a team trying to win, there was no way he should have been playing a ton of minutes off rip, he just got started learning how to play basketball

weren't you calling him a bad/unmoveable contract just last year?

What does that have to do with the Raptors deciding to start him in his 3rd season, despite the fact a more established player was in front of him?

And what does the second part have to do with what he was in his 2nd season? We're not talking about what he is, we're talking about what he was at the same time in his career as Obi. You would have been on here posting screenshots from Statmuse showing what he shot when he took more than 3 threes in a game.

because the key to improving shooting isn't playing time. it's more time spent shooting in the gym in the offseason and outside of games. they saw the shooting was good in practice and scrimmages and decided he'd be a really good offensive player. siakam at that time was already proven as a defensive player and obi is not..? unfortunately, defense is half the game, if obi was as good a defensive player and had the same tools, i'd be much more inclined to keep him, but he's not

Siakam wasn't proven as anything at that time, you can't rewrite history here, Nurse starting him was a surprise and unexpected -

In addition to Anunoby and Leonard, Nurse says that Pascal Siakam, who has made great improvements over the offseason, is close to being that type of player as well. Siakam will likely be a fixture in the second unit, bringing versatility on both ends of the floor.

https://www.sportingnews.com/ca/nba/news/toronto-raptors-nick-nurse-on-lineups-rotations-bench-mob-leonard-lowry-valanciunas-anunoby-siakam/zm1esz9xzyrd1rf7lvddoq85y


He was a bench guy that was expected to be a hustle big for the 2nd unit, he got thrown into the starting lineup because Nurse didn't want to play Jonas and Ibaka together, he wanted his team to play faster and let Siakam handle the ball in transition which is something he had never done prior to that season. You keep saying Obi isn't a defender, he was a better defender than Randle this year, what are you guys even saying at this point? The overarching point is that those stats from Siakam, would have been met with the same type of disdain as the ones Obi posts here, cause if you can't see there's more to Obi, you can't convince me you would have been seeing it with Siakam, 22% from three, I see what you all say about RJ's shooting.

[bearadonisdna]

Cool activity.
Am a sucker for team building: Total:90

5. Sims |10
4.Obi |25
3. Wilson Chandler |25

1. RJB |25
2. Jerian Grant |5

[G_K_F]

Giving up Grimes and Obi isnt really giving up the house. Knicks would still have RJ, IQ, McBride, and Cam.

Pretty sure the Jazz Radio host even said the player return was meh but the picks return was a haul for Utah.

McBride hasn’t done anything in the league and has no value.

Cam Reddish sucks.

RJ will have less value at $30 million per season.

[thebuzzardman]

Speaking of Siakam, in his 2nd season he averaged 7.3ppg, 4.0rpg, 2.0apg and shot 51% from the field and 22% from three, he got 5 starts on the year and averaged 13/4/2. He got to start in his 3rd season, and we know what happened there, 16.9ppg, 6.9rpg, 3.1apg, and Obi's advanced stats have been better through his first two years than Siakam's were. Much like Obi, Siakam's stats were screaming out "hey, maybe this guy should play more?".


Imagine Siakam on this team with most of you debbie downer ass posters who can't do projections, you would have been saying he sucks he shoots 22% from three and no way should he start over Serge Ibaka who was 28 at the time and made $20 million to Siakam's $1.3 million.

Obi, Hartenstein and trade Mitch later next season for useful player

Mitch is less problematic than Randle in an offense, you could run spain PnR with Mitch and Obi, those sets the Hawks killed us with where Collins & Capella were setting screens at the same time? We could do that with them if they have Mitchell/Brunson as primary ball handlers.

Randle isn't a good enough finisher at the rim for that kind of thing, you can only do it with 2 skywalkers.

Good point. I'm torn on Randle, even after being really pissed at him last year.
Same for Obi, different reasons.
I suppose how I feel is a loose summary of the overall take on both

Obi is getting better and needs an expanded role - this amount of which depends on where you are on the Obi spectrum.
There are defensive concerns for Obi; generally Randle is better except last year when he mailed it in
Have some concerns for Obi in the halfcourt offense, particularly when teams zone up and he's asked to create his own offense more. 3 point shot concerns add to this.

Randle can more reliably create offense in the half court, he can certainly pass well for a big, but there's a concern Randle's passing comes with dominating the ball.
Counter argument is Randle got put in a role one level too high and can do well if asked to do less
Counter counter argument is Randle really doesn't have the inclination to play that way and is less effective in that role
Also, with Brunson and Donovan M, Knicks would have two guys who can score when "the play breaks down", so it's better to have willing cutters, stay in their lane shooters and finisher types.
I mean, Utah thrived with Uber P&R Gobert, Mitchell, with Conley, and Boj B providing spacing (not all but this is long enough) with Ingles the willing do it all glue guy and Clarkson to keep the shooting/scoring going off the bench.
Meaning, teams can do well and don't know the 3rd option to be as skilled as Randle, especially if he's not going to stay in his lane.

I'd probably sacrifice Grimes on the alter of getting DMitch and saving a future pick, probably shed Cam too, and Rose (who I like) and keep Fournier and IQ for bench shooting, Randle to see if he can embrace an uber role player mindset, and if not, that's 25 million to deal.

Yes, I know that's giving up defense, height, that Utah might say f*ck off, and the risk Randle acts like a d*ckbag.

Brunson/IQ
DMitchell/Fournier
RJ/ Feron Hunt (bootleg Cam Reddish) or mle vet
Randle/Obi
Big Mitch/Hartenstein
Various pieces (McBride traded)

[The Vo Show]

G - RJ - 25c
G - Frank - 10c
F - Obi - 25c
F - Wilson Chandler - 25c
C - Sims - 10c

5c left over for me cause that row is terrible.

[thebuzzardman]

Giving up Grimes and Obi isnt really giving up the house. Knicks would still have RJ, IQ, McBride, and Cam.

Pretty sure the Jazz Radio host even said the player return was meh but the picks return was a haul for Utah.

McBride hasn’t done anything in the league and has no value.

Cam Reddish sucks.

RJ will have less value at $30 million per season.

Reddish has value of (roughly) 6 million that is expiring, which Ainge may prefer. He's filler.
Ainge can probably flip him at the deadline for a 2nd rounder
Or maybe we don't know and retains enough value for a late first, but prob not

[Ghetto Gospel]

What does that have to do with the Raptors deciding to start him in his 3rd season, despite the fact a more established player was in front of him?

And what does the second part have to do with what he was in his 2nd season? We're not talking about what he is, we're talking about what he was at the same time in his career as Obi. You would have been on here posting screenshots from Statmuse showing what he shot when he took more than 3 threes in a game.

because the key to improving shooting isn't playing time. it's more time spent shooting in the gym in the offseason and outside of games. they saw the shooting was good in practice and scrimmages and decided he'd be a really good offensive player. siakam at that time was already proven as a defensive player and obi is not..? unfortunately, defense is half the game, if obi was as good a defensive player and had the same tools, i'd be much more inclined to keep him, but he's not

Siakam wasn't proven as anything at that time, you can't rewrite history here, Nurse starting him was a surprise and unexpected -

In addition to Anunoby and Leonard, Nurse says that Pascal Siakam, who has made great improvements over the offseason, is close to being that type of player as well. Siakam will likely be a fixture in the second unit, bringing versatility on both ends of the floor.

https://www.sportingnews.com/ca/nba/news/toronto-raptors-nick-nurse-on-lineups-rotations-bench-mob-leonard-lowry-valanciunas-anunoby-siakam/zm1esz9xzyrd1rf7lvddoq85y


He was a bench guy that was expected to be a hustle big for the 2nd unit, he got thrown into the starting lineup because Nurse didn't want to play Jonas and Ibaka together, he wanted his team to play faster and let Siakam handle the ball in transition which is something he had never done prior to that season. You keep saying Obi isn't a defender, he was a better defender than Randle this year, what are you guys even saying at this point?

the advanced stats prove that siakam was a good defensive player in year 2, which obi is not.

a few things with regards to defense. it's more acceptable for a "star" or an offensive player with a heavy load to not be a good defensive player. i think obi is just a role player and i want good defense out of my role players, it's really that simple. one way role players are slowly getting phased out of the league and getting less playing time, either because they can't shoot/score or can't play defense. i'm okay with trading randle just like i am obi, my post history shows that i was hoping they'd trade him last year after his all-nba season, i don't see your point?

[G_K_F]

That game is an easy one.

C - Josh Harrelson
PF - Danilo Gallinari
SF - RJ Barrett
SG - Landry Fields
PG - Jerian Grant

Or

C - Jericho Sims
PF - Obi Toppin
SF - Landry Fields
SG - Frank Ntilikina
PG - Immanuel Quickley

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

Obi, Hartenstein and trade Mitch later next season for useful player

Is Mitch going to be hard or easy to trade in your view? If easy, why trade? If hard, how to trade?

My snark takes don't include sober analysis.

I'm honestly not sure. Mitch is a decent/good player. He's also in the upper echelon of pay, and over 4 years, for the prototype of player he is.

This is basically a hedge, because I don't know, but neither easy nor hard - a team would have to have a need and a matching player (s) Knicks would like back or some 3 team trade.

Like, if Bam were to go on the market, even teams that have a good C would explore it, where Mitch it would be a team with a need.

So you think NBA teams would rate Bam more highly than Mitch? Controversial!!!

Look, I agree that if Mitch shot 40% from three, had Kareem's sky hook and would set a decent screen every now and then he'd be a better player. But his defence and team rebounding are top tier. He fundamentally gets basketball, even if he isn't that good at some important aspects. (And it's completely on the Knicks that they can't get him to shoot 66% from FT.) And he's basically gets on with it on court without creating drama. That makes him in the tier of Gobert, who was just traded for 17 first round picks or whatever.

[Ghetto Gospel]

Obi, Hartenstein and trade Mitch later next season for useful player

Mitch is less problematic than Randle in an offense, you could run spain PnR with Mitch and Obi, those sets the Hawks killed us with where Collins & Capella were setting screens at the same time? We could do that with them if they have Mitchell/Brunson as primary ball handlers.

Randle isn't a good enough finisher at the rim for that kind of thing, you can only do it with 2 skywalkers.

Good point. I'm torn on Randle, even after being really pissed at him last year.
Same for Obi, different reasons.
I suppose how I feel is a loose summary of the overall take on both

Obi is getting better and needs an expanded role - this amount of which depends on where you are on the Obi spectrum.
There are defensive concerns for Obi; generally Randle is better except last year when he mailed it in
Have some concerns for Obi in the halfcourt offense, particularly when teams zone up and he's asked to create his own offense more. 3 point shot concerns add to this.

Randle can more reliably create offense in the half court, he can certainly pass well for a big, but there's a concern Randle's passing comes with dominating the ball.
Counter argument is Randle got put in a role one level too high and can do well if asked to do less
Counter counter argument is Randle really doesn't have the inclination to play that way and is less effective in that role
Also, with Brunson and Donovan M, Knicks would have two guys who can score when "the play breaks down", so it's better to have willing cutters, stay in their lane shooters and finisher types.
I mean, Utah thrived with Uber P&R Gobert, Mitchell, with Conley, and Boj B providing spacing (not all but this is long enough) with Ingles the willing do it all glue guy and Clarkson to keep the shooting/scoring going off the bench.
Meaning, teams can do well and don't know the 3rd option to be as skilled as Randle, especially if he's not going to stay in his lane.

I'd probably sacrifice Grimes on the alter of getting DMitch and saving a future pick, probably shed Cam too, and Rose (who I like) and keep Fournier and IQ for bench shooting, Randle to see if he can embrace an uber role player mindset, and if not, that's 25 million to deal.

Yes, I know that's giving up defense, height, that Utah might say f*ck off, and the risk Randle acts like a d*ckbag.

Brunson/IQ
DMitchell/Fournier
RJ/ Feron Hunt (bootleg Cam Reddish) or mle vet
Randle/Obi
Big Mitch/Hartenstein
Various pieces (McBride traded)

basically our entire roster is playing out of role or suffering in some which way because we don't have a superstar level offensive player to settle everyone down on offense.

[DaGawd]

That game is an easy one.

C - Josh Harrelson
PF - Danilo Gallinari
SF - RJ Barrett
SG - Landry Fields
PG - Jerian Grant

Or

C - Jericho Sims
PF - Obi Toppin
SF - Landry Fields
SG - Frank Ntilikina
PG - Immanuel Quickley

both lineups are definitely in the running for victor wembenyama

[thebuzzardman]

Giving up Grimes and Obi isnt really giving up the house. Knicks would still have RJ, IQ, McBride, and Cam.

Pretty sure the Jazz Radio host even said the player return was meh but the picks return was a haul for Utah.

Really depends on the valuation each team puts on the individual youth not only in the present, but how they rate their projection.
And each side is going to lie a bit for leverage.

I have no idea. Sometimes I think Obi can take another step or at least project his current stats upward with increased minutes, other times I'm less sure and say "whatever, Randle is going to get the minutes, go get Paschall and call it a trade"

And same is true of IQ and Grimes.

Then again, it's not like Utah scored some giant "Youth" haul from The Wolves.

Not counting Beasley. He's there for the $, he's expiring, and really what matters is he's decent and can be moved. Same for Beverly. Knicks can offer the same level of players in Rose, Fournier and Cam - in that they are filler of some use, who can be moved.

The "youth" the Wovles sent: Vanderbilt, Leandro Bolmaro, Walker Kessler.

Vanderbilt is an ordinary, nothing special backup PF - perfect for the tank, won't be winning a team any games.
Leandro Bolmaro has played one season and not done much - but here's the upside arguments
Walker Kessler hasn't played an NBA minute. He's a scouting report and all projection.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

because the key to improving shooting isn't playing time. it's more time spent shooting in the gym in the offseason and outside of games. they saw the shooting was good in practice and scrimmages and decided he'd be a really good offensive player. siakam at that time was already proven as a defensive player and obi is not..? unfortunately, defense is half the game, if obi was as good a defensive player and had the same tools, i'd be much more inclined to keep him, but he's not

Siakam wasn't proven as anything at that time, you can't rewrite history here, Nurse starting him was a surprise and unexpected -

In addition to Anunoby and Leonard, Nurse says that Pascal Siakam, who has made great improvements over the offseason, is close to being that type of player as well. Siakam will likely be a fixture in the second unit, bringing versatility on both ends of the floor.

https://www.sportingnews.com/ca/nba/news/toronto-raptors-nick-nurse-on-lineups-rotations-bench-mob-leonard-lowry-valanciunas-anunoby-siakam/zm1esz9xzyrd1rf7lvddoq85y


He was a bench guy that was expected to be a hustle big for the 2nd unit, he got thrown into the starting lineup because Nurse didn't want to play Jonas and Ibaka together, he wanted his team to play faster and let Siakam handle the ball in transition which is something he had never done prior to that season. You keep saying Obi isn't a defender, he was a better defender than Randle this year, what are you guys even saying at this point?

the advanced stats show that siakam was proven as a defensive player in year 2, which obi is not.

a few things with regards to defense. it's more acceptable for a "star" or an offensive player with a heavy load to not be a good defensive player. i think obi is just a role player and i want good defense out of my role players, it's really that simple. one way role players are slowly getting phased out of the league and getting less playing time, either because they can't shoot/score or can't play defense. i'm okay with trading randle just like i am obi, my post history shows that i was hoping they'd trade him last year after his all-nba season, i don't see your point?

He wasn't "proven" in any shape or form, people here would be saying he did it against bench units, the advanced stats also show Obi was a better all around player.


And I'll ask you, what I've asked everyone else, where do you think this 3 & D forward is going to come from? We're on the verge of trading for Mitchell, we're going to be capped out and with less draft capital, trying to ask for option C when only A & B are available isn't really realistic. What you want isn't on the menu once the Mitchell trade happens, either we're stuck with Randle or we play Obi at the 4, there is no other option here.

Also, the cries for defense from Obi crack me up, we're in a thread about trading for Donovan Mitchell, to pair him with Jalen Brunson, defense isn't going to be good unless prime Kevin Garnett is manning the 4 for us.

[thebuzzardman]

Mitch is less problematic than Randle in an offense, you could run spain PnR with Mitch and Obi, those sets the Hawks killed us with where Collins & Capella were setting screens at the same time? We could do that with them if they have Mitchell/Brunson as primary ball handlers.

Randle isn't a good enough finisher at the rim for that kind of thing, you can only do it with 2 skywalkers.

Good point. I'm torn on Randle, even after being really pissed at him last year.
Same for Obi, different reasons.
I suppose how I feel is a loose summary of the overall take on both

Obi is getting better and needs an expanded role - this amount of which depends on where you are on the Obi spectrum.
There are defensive concerns for Obi; generally Randle is better except last year when he mailed it in
Have some concerns for Obi in the halfcourt offense, particularly when teams zone up and he's asked to create his own offense more. 3 point shot concerns add to this.

Randle can more reliably create offense in the half court, he can certainly pass well for a big, but there's a concern Randle's passing comes with dominating the ball.
Counter argument is Randle got put in a role one level too high and can do well if asked to do less
Counter counter argument is Randle really doesn't have the inclination to play that way and is less effective in that role
Also, with Brunson and Donovan M, Knicks would have two guys who can score when "the play breaks down", so it's better to have willing cutters, stay in their lane shooters and finisher types.
I mean, Utah thrived with Uber P&R Gobert, Mitchell, with Conley, and Boj B providing spacing (not all but this is long enough) with Ingles the willing do it all glue guy and Clarkson to keep the shooting/scoring going off the bench.
Meaning, teams can do well and don't know the 3rd option to be as skilled as Randle, especially if he's not going to stay in his lane.

I'd probably sacrifice Grimes on the alter of getting DMitch and saving a future pick, probably shed Cam too, and Rose (who I like) and keep Fournier and IQ for bench shooting, Randle to see if he can embrace an uber role player mindset, and if not, that's 25 million to deal.

Yes, I know that's giving up defense, height, that Utah might say f*ck off, and the risk Randle acts like a d*ckbag.

Brunson/IQ
DMitchell/Fournier
RJ/ Feron Hunt (bootleg Cam Reddish) or mle vet
Randle/Obi
Big Mitch/Hartenstein
Various pieces (McBride traded)

basically our entire roster is playing out of role or suffering in some which way because we don't have a superstar level offensive player to settle everyone down on offense.

Donovan Mitchell says hello

[bearadonisdna]

Is Mitch going to be hard or easy to trade in your view? If easy, why trade? If hard, how to trade?

My snark takes don't include sober analysis.

I'm honestly not sure. Mitch is a decent/good player. He's also in the upper echelon of pay, and over 4 years, for the prototype of player he is.

This is basically a hedge, because I don't know, but neither easy nor hard - a team would have to have a need and a matching player (s) Knicks would like back or some 3 team trade.

Like, if Bam were to go on the market, even teams that have a good C would explore it, where Mitch it would be a team with a need.

So you think NBA teams would rate Bam more highly than Mitch? Controversial!!!

Look, I agree that if Mitch shot 40% from three, had Kareem's sky hook and would set a decent screen every now and then he'd be a better player. But his defence and team rebounding are top tier. He fundamentally gets basketball, even if he isn't that good at some important aspects. (And it's completely on the Knicks that they can't get him to shoot 66% from FT.) And he's basically gets on with it on court without creating drama. That makes him in the tier of Gobert, who was just traded for 17 first round picks or whatever.

Man that year mitch passed out turkeys really went a long way.
‘ more value than bam’ ?
‘ in the tier of Gobert’ ?
Man I’m really becoming an insane Knick fan like some talking about I’m starting to love this .