Donovan Mitchell Thread #6 - Something might actually happen in this one!!!!!!

[thebuzzardman]

Putting Mitchell Robinson and fundamentals in the same sentence has to be one of the most ridiculous things posted here in recent memory - and Green Arrow is posting about his encounters in Thailand.

I think the point is he knows to stay in his lane and does that thing well.

Again, there's some debate, to me about the quality of his screens, but other than that, Mitch is fine.
Gee, he's not Kareem. That's ok for a guy drafted where he was.
The salary? Well, too late. At some point, players that do what he does, in the prime, get that ballpark.
Knicks overpaid by 4 million a year.
Maybe they have a plan around that, but doubt it

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

My snark takes don't include sober analysis.

I'm honestly not sure. Mitch is a decent/good player. He's also in the upper echelon of pay, and over 4 years, for the prototype of player he is.

This is basically a hedge, because I don't know, but neither easy nor hard - a team would have to have a need and a matching player (s) Knicks would like back or some 3 team trade.

Like, if Bam were to go on the market, even teams that have a good C would explore it, where Mitch it would be a team with a need.

So you think NBA teams would rate Bam more highly than Mitch? Controversial!!!

Look, I agree that if Mitch shot 40% from three, had Kareem's sky hook and would set a decent screen every now and then he'd be a better player. But his defence and team rebounding are top tier. He fundamentally gets basketball, even if he isn't that good at some important aspects. (And it's completely on the Knicks that they can't get him to shoot 66% from FT.) And he's basically gets on with it on court without creating drama. That makes him in the tier of Gobert, who was just traded for 17 first round picks or whatever.

I just used Bam as the throw in for the next level of C that completely easy to trade.

I think Mitch is good. At least getting Hartenstein means the Knicks can throw out a 5 with more offensive variety to his game (and possibly an outside shot) - something I've talked about for 2 years, so that should be fine.

I don't know if he's Gobert as Gobert is legit a little bit taller and I think noticeably better screens, but yes, Mitch willingly stays in his lane and does it well, agreed.

Also, don't make me say stuff that encourages Shams.

Yeah, I'd like Mitch to have more variety on offence, but..okay, the Knicks should actually organise some coaching so his FTs are respectable. Yes, NBA players should take care of things like this themselves, but teams can do this kind of stuff trivially, if intrusively, and so should. But the screens thing is pretty grating.

[bearadonisdna]

sorry dont know who to quote om the siakam thing, but Siakam already has a pair of twins developing almost exactly like him in OG and Barnes.
Its almost a set of triplets.
Right now i guess they are good olayers but its must also be an organizational thing too because these guys developing almost identically.

They might make an interesting trade partner, but im not even that down on Fournier as a SF.
For the knicks surely defense is a better fit but how much do you spend for a SF flop?
The way the market is, a lot of valuable nba player are getting traded for just a draft pick or so.
The knicks might be able to build a superstar-less dream lineup but it looks like ainge is trying to clean us out.

[Ghetto Gospel]

You would have looked at Siakam's 3 point shooting percentage and trashed him over it, stop it. I been saying that since the jump, since you started quoting me, it's literally the first thing I said about Siakam. You want this to be about Obi turning into Siakam, when it's simply about you and posters like you not being able to see value in Obi, you would have done the exact same thing with Siakam cause he had a glaring hole in his game. Nevermind the fact the gap between them offensively through their first two years is larger than the defensive one, both of them were net positives, you're talking like we sucked anytime Obi stepped on the floor.


Tyson Chandler? JR Smith? That was almost 10 years ago, and ended in failure The Lakers and Heat had LeBron, can we please stop using them as an example of team builds, they had a top 3 player all-time. You wouldn't want Jingles, he's 34 coming off an ACL tear and you had no idea he was a versatile defender, we also don't have a Giannis.

like i said, i'd be good with obi if he played defense like siakam and he could provide something on both ends of the floor, but right now he doesn't. if obi was a finisher that played good defense, then i don't need him to shoot 3's, though if he did shoot 3's he'd be the perfect role player and i'd love to keep him

you asked how we're going to get role players and i explained that to you. we got role players 10 years ago and we can get them again now. you're moving the goalposts

Obi shot 35% from three over a 45 game stretch , nice to see you finally on board.


No, I asked you how we're going to get the 3 & D forward from, teams aren't giving away starting 3 & D guys like that, and you said we got Tyson and JR 10 years ago, when player values were different. I'm not moving goalposts, I asked a specific question about a specific player type, probably the most valuable type of role player right now.


Most of the people who want Mitchell also realize he won't be enough on his own and we'd need another star, so we'd need another star & now a 3 & D forward.

i don't understand how i am on board? obi still doesn't play defense? i'd be on board if he played defense. if he played defense and shot 3s, he'd be perfect

fk you mean it's hard to get these guys. pj tucker was just signed by the 76ers, jingles was just signed by the bucks, nic batum was just waived 2 years ago by the hornets and signed with the clippers. obi isn't one of these guys neither, so it's not like we're giving up a 3&d pf

yes, we'd need another star to compete. but it's one less star that we'd need right now.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

My snark takes don't include sober analysis.

I'm honestly not sure. Mitch is a decent/good player. He's also in the upper echelon of pay, and over 4 years, for the prototype of player he is.

This is basically a hedge, because I don't know, but neither easy nor hard - a team would have to have a need and a matching player (s) Knicks would like back or some 3 team trade.

Like, if Bam were to go on the market, even teams that have a good C would explore it, where Mitch it would be a team with a need.

So you think NBA teams would rate Bam more highly than Mitch? Controversial!!!

Look, I agree that if Mitch shot 40% from three, had Kareem's sky hook and would set a decent screen every now and then he'd be a better player. But his defence and team rebounding are top tier. He fundamentally gets basketball, even if he isn't that good at some important aspects. (And it's completely on the Knicks that they can't get him to shoot 66% from FT.) And he's basically gets on with it on court without creating drama. That makes him in the tier of Gobert, who was just traded for 17 first round picks or whatever.

I just used Bam as the throw in for the next level of C that completely easy to trade.

I think Mitch is good. At least getting Hartenstein means the Knicks can throw out a 5 with more offensive variety to his game (and possibly an outside shot) - something I've talked about for 2 years, so that should be fine.

I don't know if he's Gobert as Gobert is legit a little bit taller and I think noticeably better screens, but yes, Mitch willingly stays in his lane and does it well, agreed.

Also, don't make me say stuff that encourages Shams.

When was the KP trade? Remind me.

[Ghetto Gospel]

sorry dont know who to quote om the siakam thing, but Siakam already has a pair of twins developing almost exactly like him in OG and Barnes.
Its almost a set of triplets.
Right now i guess they are good olayers but its must also be an organizational thing too because these guys developing almost identically.

They might make an interesting trade partner, but im not even that down on Fournier as a SF.
For the knicks surely defense is a better fit but how much do you spend for a SF flop?
The way the market is, a lot of valuable nba player are getting traded for just a draft pick or so.
The knicks might be able to build a superstar-less dream lineup but it looks like ainge is trying to clean us out.

the raptors clearly have a type that they like to draft: long athletes that can guard multiple positions and eventually hope they can learn to shoot down the road.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

like i said, i'd be good with obi if he played defense like siakam and he could provide something on both ends of the floor, but right now he doesn't. if obi was a finisher that played good defense, then i don't need him to shoot 3's, though if he did shoot 3's he'd be the perfect role player and i'd love to keep him

you asked how we're going to get role players and i explained that to you. we got role players 10 years ago and we can get them again now. you're moving the goalposts

Obi shot 35% from three over a 45 game stretch , nice to see you finally on board.


No, I asked you how we're going to get the 3 & D forward from, teams aren't giving away starting 3 & D guys like that, and you said we got Tyson and JR 10 years ago, when player values were different. I'm not moving goalposts, I asked a specific question about a specific player type, probably the most valuable type of role player right now.


Most of the people who want Mitchell also realize he won't be enough on his own and we'd need another star, so we'd need another star & now a 3 & D forward.

i don't understand how i am on board? obi still doesn't play defense? i'd be on board if he played defense. if he played defense and shot 3s, he'd be perfect

fk you mean it's hard to get these guys. pj tucker was just signed by the 76ers, jingles was just signed by the bucks, nic batum was just waived 2 years ago by the hornets and signed with the clippers. obi isn't one of these guys neither, so it's not like we're giving up a 3&d pf

yes, we'd need another star to compete. but it's one less star that we'd need right now.

PJ Tucker is 37 years old and just signed a contract that will have him paid until he's 41, that is how hard it is to get these guys, when someone this old is getting that many years & money it should tell you how hard it is. Jingles isn't a starter and he's also coming off a torn ACL, Batum was 31 and looked completely finished when the Hornets let him go. These are the type of players you want over Obadiah?


You should have just said Royce O'neale now that I think of it.

[thebuzzardman]

You would have looked at Siakam's 3 point shooting percentage and trashed him over it, stop it. I been saying that since the jump, since you started quoting me, it's literally the first thing I said about Siakam. You want this to be about Obi turning into Siakam, when it's simply about you and posters like you not being able to see value in Obi, you would have done the exact same thing with Siakam cause he had a glaring hole in his game. Nevermind the fact the gap between them offensively through their first two years is larger than the defensive one, both of them were net positives, you're talking like we sucked anytime Obi stepped on the floor.


Tyson Chandler? JR Smith? That was almost 10 years ago, and ended in failure The Lakers and Heat had LeBron, can we please stop using them as an example of team builds, they had a top 3 player all-time. You wouldn't want Jingles, he's 34 coming off an ACL tear and you had no idea he was a versatile defender, we also don't have a Giannis.

like i said, i'd be good with obi if he played defense like siakam and he could provide something on both ends of the floor, but right now he doesn't. if obi was a finisher that played good defense, then i don't need him to shoot 3's, though if he did shoot 3's he'd be the perfect role player and i'd love to keep him

you asked how we're going to get role players and i explained that to you. we got role players 10 years ago and we can get them again now. you're moving the goalposts

Obi shot 35% from three over a 45 game stretch , nice to see you finally on board.


No, I asked you how we're going to get the 3 & D forward from, teams aren't giving away starting 3 & D guys like that, and you said we got Tyson and JR 10 years ago, when player values were different. I'm not moving goalposts, I asked a specific question about a specific player type, probably the most valuable type of role player right now.


Most of the people who want Mitchell also realize he won't be enough on his own and we'd need another star, so we'd need another star & now a 3 & D forward.

Brunson isn't a star but certainly profiles as the excellent/VG 3rd player very deep playoff teams have (aside for the optimal size and defense stuff about him and DMitch - that's another debate)

Then the Knicks have to hope RJ makes the internal jump, but he'll also cost them ?28? Million a year while they find out?
There's risk. He might top out as nice 3rd/4th level guy but overpaid and hard to move.
He'd at least represent that amount of $ out for X player in a hypothetical (but not easy to make) trade

I'm with BX - I'd hold on to Fournier for two reasons, defensive issues be damned. If the team is moves away from the true high level, then I'm holding the solid player with 2 years on his deal at 17 million who might be able to be exchanged alone or in combination for a better 3 & D player. Easy? No. But at least possible.

There's an argument for keeping Randle for the same reason, but I can also see the addition by subtraction arguments.

I'd be all for getting Boj B back from the Jazz with Mitchell but while Randle goes out, but that means dabbling in the fantasy that Jazz want Westbrook to dump him, that Lakers want Randle, Fournier probably goes out, and then Boj B and him are kind of a wash - but maybe there is value in Boj B being a better defender who can play 3/4 instead of 2/3

TL/DR - Get Mitchell, have enough left over in right vet, some young guys and picks to be able to tweak the roster. I don't think it takes another star to make the team really good. But it probably takes another move.

[bearadonisdna]

So you think NBA teams would rate Bam more highly than Mitch? Controversial!!!

Look, I agree that if Mitch shot 40% from three, had Kareem's sky hook and would set a decent screen every now and then he'd be a better player. But his defence and team rebounding are top tier. He fundamentally gets basketball, even if he isn't that good at some important aspects. (And it's completely on the Knicks that they can't get him to shoot 66% from FT.) And he's basically gets on with it on court without creating drama. That makes him in the tier of Gobert, who was just traded for 17 first round picks or whatever.

Man that year mitch passed out turkeys really went a long way.
‘ more value than bam’ ?
‘ in the tier of Gobert’ ?
Man I’m really becoming an insane Knick fan like some talking about I’m starting to love this .

I think you kind of missed his points.
He's making fun of the fact I said Bam is better than Mitch, which I used as a C completely easy to trade - all 30 teams would be on the line. So BXetc went with the "no sh*t" sarcasm.

The comparison to Gobert is some hyperbole on his part but he's pointing out Mitch effectively plays a very good version of the same role but Gobert went for a zillion picks.
Clearly Gobert is another level, BXetc trying to point out these kinds of players have value. That's all.

well i certainly did whiff on that bam take.
been dealing with a caffeine withdrawal headache all day, soda to the rescue
And also if my sarcasm detector was off on that gobert take then i guess my bad too. , i guess.

[Im Coming Home]

Sims
Porzingis
RJ
Frank
Grant

[thebuzzardman]

So you think NBA teams would rate Bam more highly than Mitch? Controversial!!!

Look, I agree that if Mitch shot 40% from three, had Kareem's sky hook and would set a decent screen every now and then he'd be a better player. But his defence and team rebounding are top tier. He fundamentally gets basketball, even if he isn't that good at some important aspects. (And it's completely on the Knicks that they can't get him to shoot 66% from FT.) And he's basically gets on with it on court without creating drama. That makes him in the tier of Gobert, who was just traded for 17 first round picks or whatever.

I just used Bam as the throw in for the next level of C that completely easy to trade.

I think Mitch is good. At least getting Hartenstein means the Knicks can throw out a 5 with more offensive variety to his game (and possibly an outside shot) - something I've talked about for 2 years, so that should be fine.

I don't know if he's Gobert as Gobert is legit a little bit taller and I think noticeably better screens, but yes, Mitch willingly stays in his lane and does it well, agreed.

Also, don't make me say stuff that encourages Shams.

When was the KP trade? Remind me.

KP separate issue. Also, he insisted (so it's rumored) at not playing the 5 as a Knick.

[Ghetto Gospel]

Obi shot 35% from three over a 45 game stretch , nice to see you finally on board.


No, I asked you how we're going to get the 3 & D forward from, teams aren't giving away starting 3 & D guys like that, and you said we got Tyson and JR 10 years ago, when player values were different. I'm not moving goalposts, I asked a specific question about a specific player type, probably the most valuable type of role player right now.


Most of the people who want Mitchell also realize he won't be enough on his own and we'd need another star, so we'd need another star & now a 3 & D forward.

i don't understand how i am on board? obi still doesn't play defense? i'd be on board if he played defense. if he played defense and shot 3s, he'd be perfect

fk you mean it's hard to get these guys. pj tucker was just signed by the 76ers, jingles was just signed by the bucks, nic batum was just waived 2 years ago by the hornets and signed with the clippers. obi isn't one of these guys neither, so it's not like we're giving up a 3&d pf

yes, we'd need another star to compete. but it's one less star that we'd need right now.

PJ Tucker is 37 years old and just signed a contract that will have him paid until he's 41, that is how hard it is to get these guys, when someone this old is getting that many years & money it should tell you how hard it is. Jingles isn't a starter and he's also coming off a torn ACL, Batum was 31 and looked completely finished when the Hornets let him go. These are the type of players you want over Obadiah?

you asked how we're getting 3&d pf's cause they're "the most valuable type of role player" bobby portis signed with the bucks 2 years ago, otto porter just signed with the raptors this offseason. looks like these guys are available and can be had. kinda crazy huh? makes obi expendable in a trade for a star. i guess we can just keep moving the goalposts though

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

sorry dont know who to quote om the siakam thing, but Siakam already has a pair of twins developing almost exactly like him in OG and Barnes.
Its almost a set of triplets.
Right now i guess they are good olayers but its must also be an organizational thing too because these guys developing almost identically.

They might make an interesting trade partner, but im not even that down on Fournier as a SF.
For the knicks surely defense is a better fit but how much do you spend for a SF flop?
The way the market is, a lot of valuable nba player are getting traded for just a draft pick or so.
The knicks might be able to build a superstar-less dream lineup but it looks like ainge is trying to clean us out.

I think I'm agreeing with you. Not sure for certain,

Brunson, Mitchell, Fournier, Randle, Robinson with Thibs's defensive coaching is a good starting line up, and RJ gets the 18 minutes Julius is off court, plus some of Evan's off court time.

[thebuzzardman]

I'd like to point out to NoDopeOnSundays that B8RcDeMktfxC have pretty divergent views on Obi.

You two should discuss.

*grabs chair*

[Clyde_Style]

I'd like to point out to NoDopeOnSundays that B8RcDeMktfxC have pretty divergent views on Obi.

You two should discuss.

*grabs chair*

[Capn'O]

Apropos of nothing, Barrett's TS% at 21 is higher than Burks' was. At higher usage. ACAB. Hold them accountable. Carry on.

[Clyde_Style]

Apropos of nothing, Barrett's TS% at 21 is higher than Burks' was. At higher usage. ACAB. Hold them accountable. Carry on.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

like i said, i'd be good with obi if he played defense like siakam and he could provide something on both ends of the floor, but right now he doesn't. if obi was a finisher that played good defense, then i don't need him to shoot 3's, though if he did shoot 3's he'd be the perfect role player and i'd love to keep him

you asked how we're going to get role players and i explained that to you. we got role players 10 years ago and we can get them again now. you're moving the goalposts

Obi shot 35% from three over a 45 game stretch , nice to see you finally on board.


No, I asked you how we're going to get the 3 & D forward from, teams aren't giving away starting 3 & D guys like that, and you said we got Tyson and JR 10 years ago, when player values were different. I'm not moving goalposts, I asked a specific question about a specific player type, probably the most valuable type of role player right now.


Most of the people who want Mitchell also realize he won't be enough on his own and we'd need another star, so we'd need another star & now a 3 & D forward.

Brunson isn't a star but certainly profiles as the excellent/VG 3rd player very deep playoff teams have (aside for the optimal size and defense stuff about him and DMitch - that's another debate)

Then the Knicks have to hope RJ makes the internal jump, but he'll also cost them ?28? Million a year while they find out?
There's risk. He might top out as nice 3rd/4th level guy but overpaid and hard to move.
He'd at least represent that amount of $ out for X player in a hypothetical (but not easy to make) trade

I'm with BX - I'd hold on to Fournier for two reasons, defensive issues be damned. If the team is moves away from the true high level, then I'm holding the solid player with 2 years on his deal at 17 million who might be able to be exchanged alone or in combination for a better 3 & D player. Easy? No. But at least possible.

There's an argument for keeping Randle for the same reason, but I can also see the addition by subtraction arguments.

I'd be all for getting Boj B back from the Jazz with Mitchell but while Randle goes out, but that means dabbling in the fantasy that Jazz want Westbrook to dump him, that Lakers want Randle, Fournier probably goes out, and then Boj B and him are kind of a wash - but maybe there is value in Boj B being a better defender who can play 3/4 instead of 2/3

TL/DR - Get Mitchell, have enough left over in right vet, some young guys and picks to be able to tweak the roster. I don't think it takes another star to make the team really good. But it probably takes another move.

I like Bojan and if the deal ends up him on the Knicks that is probably fine/good for the Knicks. But I think Fournier is at least as good as a player and as a trade piece, is a little younger and isn't an expiring contact. All of those things would lead me to prefer to keep Fournier by a pretty decent margin.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

i don't understand how i am on board? obi still doesn't play defense? i'd be on board if he played defense. if he played defense and shot 3s, he'd be perfect

fk you mean it's hard to get these guys. pj tucker was just signed by the 76ers, jingles was just signed by the bucks, nic batum was just waived 2 years ago by the hornets and signed with the clippers. obi isn't one of these guys neither, so it's not like we're giving up a 3&d pf

yes, we'd need another star to compete. but it's one less star that we'd need right now.

PJ Tucker is 37 years old and just signed a contract that will have him paid until he's 41, that is how hard it is to get these guys, when someone this old is getting that many years & money it should tell you how hard it is. Jingles isn't a starter and he's also coming off a torn ACL, Batum was 31 and looked completely finished when the Hornets let him go. These are the type of players you want over Obadiah?

you asked how we're getting 3&d pf's cause they're "the most valuable type of role player" bobby portis signed with the bucks 2 years ago, otto porter just signed with the raptors this offseason. looks like these guys are available and can be had. kinda crazy huh? makes obi expendable in a trade for a star. i guess we can just keep moving the goalposts though

Bobby is a small ball C, 93% of his time was spent at the 5 last year, and he's a backup, Porter is a backup. You have named Jingles, Portis, Porter, Batum and Tucker, only 1 of these is going to be a starter next season. I asked a specific question about 3 & D forward, someone that would start, and this is the best you can do? You can say it's moving goal posts, but you buggin if you think starting some of these guys at the 4 over Randle or Obi would help.

[whocares1]

Giving up Grimes and Obi isnt really giving up the house. Knicks would still have RJ, IQ, McBride, and Cam.

Pretty sure the Jazz Radio host even said the player return was meh but the picks return was a haul for Utah.

McBride and Cam are nothing prospects. So saying we’d still have them doesn’t mean a thing.