Jerry West pretty much destroys JJ Redick

[SecondTake]

It doesn’t make sense to do that. Put 26 ur old Jerry West in the NBA and 27 year old Jerry West would have a modern package. It doesn’t take that much to upgrade from his game to now. It’s an off season or two at most. He is a 25-30 pov scorer.


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Take Jerry West from his heyday and make him play a game tomorrow and see how good he looks. It'd be bad.

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I'm not sure what your point is? If I put Steph Curry into a game from the 1960s he'd be called for traveling every time he had the basketball. Obviously any player would need to adjust to a new era, depriving them of that while limiting it to the era of your choice is deliberately skewing the results.

The whole point is that the differences are so significant that you can't just swap a player from one era to another without some sort of an adjustment period. Tell a modern player to play an entire basketball game without drinking any water and see how he handles it, remember LeBron and his cramps from the Finals? That happened to him from playing in a slightly warmer arena. Transport him to a time where they didn't hydrate players properly or have air conditioning and see how he does. If you make him play a game the day he arrived in that time he'd cramp up and not be able to play at all. That's unfair but you want to do unfair...

I'm saying make players compete exactly as they were. Because that's what we KNOW they could do, because they did it. So LeBron today would do much better if transplanted in the 60s than West would vice versa.

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[HMFFL]

Jerry is short tempered and bitter. He's angry here because he knows Redick is right. Redick's comment is too on the nose. Hits too close to home. And Redick is only repeating what Michael Jordan had already said in the 90s and nobody gave MJ crap for that.

This guy thinks the Jerry West representation on a TV show is actually true .



He's saying if people that live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones. Cousy was great for his era, and Reddick was average. Average guys trying to rip down past greats are easy to tear down as well.

I mean... you just have to actually listen to get what he's saying.

And Jordan talked about Chamberlain as the best player ever and not sure he was better, quite humbly. He never talked about the previous era greats like they were garbage.

Well said.
I believe that basically explains it but many people won't ever accept that perspective.

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[BK_2020]

Show me video of Jerry West saying he wasn't dedicated to the game lol
You can't because it doesn't exist. He was insanely competitive and if you ever watched him play you would know he had a lot of skill that he clearly developed over time practicing.
It's true they were at a competitive disadvantage compared to modern players, but to say they weren't dedicated to the game is a total falsehood.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">“No one trained year-round then, no one.”<br><br>Jerry West shares what it was like playing in the ‘60s and ‘70s on <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NBATogether?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#NBATogether</a> with <a href="https://twitter.com/TurnerSportsEJ?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@TurnerSportsEJ</a>. <a href="https://t.co/McFniLFGlL">pic.twitter.com/McFniLFGlL</a></p>&mdash; NBA on TNT (@NBAonTNT) <a href="

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?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 30, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Johnny Bball]

The above is not proof anyone was not dedicated, that's not what the word means, and that's just a bad way to presume they weren't. There are some guys now that don't train all summer now with all of what's at stake. There's a famous clip of a star player that didn't touch a basketball for 3 months after only playing half the year for example.

[KrAzY3]

Take Jerry West from his heyday and make him play a game tomorrow and see how good he looks. It'd be bad.

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I'm not sure what your point is? If I put Steph Curry into a game from the 1960s he'd be called for traveling every time he had the basketball. Obviously any player would need to adjust to a new era, depriving them of that while limiting it to the era of your choice is deliberately skewing the results.

The whole point is that the differences are so significant that you can't just swap a player from one era to another without some sort of an adjustment period. Tell a modern player to play an entire basketball game without drinking any water and see how he handles it, remember LeBron and his cramps from the Finals? That happened to him from playing in a slightly warmer arena. Transport him to a time where they didn't hydrate players properly or have air conditioning and see how he does. If you make him play a game the day he arrived in that time he'd cramp up and not be able to play at all. That's unfair but you want to do unfair...

I'm saying make players compete exactly as they were. Because that's what we KNOW they could do, because they did it. So LeBron today would do much better if transplanted in the 60s than West would vice versa.

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And I'm saying you'd have to either transport them to a "neutral" time or you give them an adjustment period and modern everything.

For instance, may be we put Jerry West and Steph Curry in 1991 with 1991 rules/tech/gear and see how they do. I imagine both would do fairly well for the record. But the idea that we're trying to compare West to Curry (or other modern era players) but only West has to make an adjustment, that's nonsense. Also, I already covered Lebron. Dude would cramp up, but how do we really know how he'd do wearing 60s era shoes, with 60s era medical help, etc... I think he would adjust just fine after a while, but not before having a lot of issues with cramps and fouling out of games all the time because back then initiating contact when you had the ball was a foul.

So, we just have to look at both sides every bit as clearly. It's not all one way, there would be adjustments both would have to make. LeBron working side jobs might have turned out a bit different than what we see now. Most players would have trouble if you transported them several decades backwards or forwards and forced them to play under what would be very abnormal circumstances for them.

To judge past players because they'd have to adjust to the present is no different than judging my grandfather (who died in the 90s) because he'd have trouble figuring out the internet. It doesn't make him less smart than me, he'd just have to learn how it works! He was really good with what was cutting edge tech for his time, but he'd just have to learn about the new stuff. Obviously Jerry West would have to adjust to a completely new thing like the three point line, that doesn't make him in anyway an inferior basketball player.

[ReddoverKobe]

It doesn’t make sense to do that. Put 26 ur old Jerry West in the NBA and 27 year old Jerry West would have a modern package. It doesn’t take that much to upgrade from his game to now. It’s an off season or two at most. He is a 25-30 pov scorer.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Take Jerry West from his heyday and make him play a game tomorrow and see how good he looks. It'd be bad.

Sent from my SM-S908W using RealGM mobile app

I'm not sure what your point is? If I put Steph Curry into a game from the 1960s he'd be called for traveling every time he had the basketball. Obviously any player would need to adjust to a new era, depriving them of that while limiting it to the era of your choice is deliberately skewing the results.

The whole point is that the differences are so significant that you can't just swap a player from one era to another without some sort of an adjustment period. Tell a modern player to play an entire basketball game without drinking any water and see how he handles it, remember LeBron and his cramps from the Finals? That happened to him from playing in a slightly warmer arena. Transport him to a time where they didn't hydrate players properly or have air conditioning and see how he does. If you make him play a game the day he arrived in that time he'd cramp up and not be able to play at all. That's unfair but you want to do unfair...

Was this meant to be serious?

[BoatsNZones]

Some dudes have no idea how skilled, professional and athletic West was. Dribbling rules were different then (you had to be close to 12:6, which makes it look more awkward on tape), but his fundamentals were far more sound than most players in this league. He did work against and with Wilt Chamberlain. He would do work with and against anyone. JJ (who I like and respect) is tierrrrs of difference comparison.

[NyKnicks1714]

Some dudes have no idea how skilled, professional and athletic West was. Dribbling rules were different then (you had to be close to 12:6, which makes it look more awkward on tape), but his fundamentals were far more sound than most players in this league. He did work against and with Wilt Chamberlain. He would do work with and against anyone. JJ (who I like and respect) is tierrrrs of difference comparison.

I don't think the issue is what West (or Cousy, etc, any great from those early eras) could do, at least not for me, it's what his average competition could do. I'm not arguing he wouldn't be great in today's game, I just think that even if you gave him all the modern training, medicine, dietary knowledge of today, he wouldn't be as head and shoulders above the competition as he was in his day.

[AussieRules]

Some dudes have no idea how skilled, professional and athletic West was. Dribbling rules were different then (you had to be close to 12:6, which makes it look more awkward on tape), but his fundamentals were far more sound than most players in this league. He did work against and with Wilt Chamberlain. He would do work with and against anyone. JJ (who I like and respect) is tierrrrs of difference comparison.

I don't think the issue is what West (or Cousy, etc, any great from those early eras) could do, at least not for me, it's what his average competition could do. I'm not arguing he wouldn't be great in today's game, I just think that even if you gave him all the modern training, medicine, dietary knowledge of today, he wouldn't be as head and shoulders above the competition as he was in his day.

Oh he would, because West was Curry before Curry. West was Mr Clutch, the logo. If the 3 point line existed in West’s time he probably holds numerous records for long range shooting.

West and Goodrich were the original splash brothers who used to bomb from halfcourt back in the 70s. Guys need to learn more about number 44, Jerry West.

[Drakeem]

Why is it that young people think the previous generation was stupid and bad at pretty much everything? I mean... this never occurred to my generation to constantly have to rip down anyone and everyone older. What exactly were you people taught to act this way to think this?

I mean, with the amount of older players (and you can apply this to a lot of industries now for some reason) constantly finding a way to crap on newer players (hell just look at people like McGrady talk about Giannis, one of the greatest players EVER already) I can see why younger people push back.

Hearing constantly from your elders, and even worse, people that you idolized constantly dump on you on how much worse the game is now and how much better they were and their era was gets annoying. The further you push, the harsher the pushback is going to be. The amount of older players who crapped on Curry, Bron, etc and saying that they couldn't be on their level can get irritating so I sympathize with when someone decides to snap back.

Hell it's like that just during someones day to day life. The amount of times I've heard the older generation call the newer generation lazy when in reality it doesn't matter how hard you work anymore when prices for things globally are just getting obscene. There's no amount you can save to prepare for life. I get it, and I don't really mind when a younger person has something to say.

[Johnny Bball]

Why is it that young people think the previous generation was stupid and bad at pretty much everything? I mean... this never occurred to my generation to constantly have to rip down anyone and everyone older. What exactly were you people taught to act this way to think this?

I mean, with the amount of older players (and you can apply this to a lot of industries now for some reason) constantly finding a way to crap on newer players (hell just look at people like McGrady talk about Giannis, one of the greatest players EVER already) I can see why younger people push back.

Hearing constantly from your elders, and even worse, people that you idolized constantly dump on you on how much worse the game is now and how much better they were and their era was gets annoying. The further you push, the harsher the pushback is going to be. The amount of older players who crapped on Curry, Bron, etc and saying that they couldn't be on their level can get irritating so I sympathize with when someone decides to snap back.

Hell it's like that just during someones day to day life. The amount of times I've heard the older generation call the newer generation lazy when in reality it doesn't matter how hard you work anymore when prices for things globally are just getting obscene. There's no amount you can save to prepare for life. I get it, and I don't really mind when a younger person has something to say.

Lol. Mcgrady is 43 years old and played until 10 years ago! He's 5 years older than James!!!

I mean... the problem probably is not what you are reading/hearing but your preconceived notions.

[BoatsNZones]

Some dudes have no idea how skilled, professional and athletic West was. Dribbling rules were different then (you had to be close to 12:6, which makes it look more awkward on tape), but his fundamentals were far more sound than most players in this league. He did work against and with Wilt Chamberlain. He would do work with and against anyone. JJ (who I like and respect) is tierrrrs of difference comparison.

I don't think the issue is what West (or Cousy, etc, any great from those early eras) could do, at least not for me, it's what his average competition could do. I'm not arguing he wouldn't be great in today's game, I just think that even if you gave him all the modern training, medicine, dietary knowledge of today, he wouldn't be as head and shoulders above the competition as he was in his day.

There’s too many intrinsic advantages and building off literally himself over the years to directly compare, but he was the trend setter. Literally THE mold of the NBA. The “transplant” nonsense makes no sense given how different the game was, but give him time to adapt as a 16 year old and he would run game on this league, I assure you.

[michaelm]

Some dudes have no idea how skilled, professional and athletic West was. Dribbling rules were different then (you had to be close to 12:6, which makes it look more awkward on tape), but his fundamentals were far more sound than most players in this league. He did work against and with Wilt Chamberlain. He would do work with and against anyone. JJ (who I like and respect) is tierrrrs of difference comparison.

I don't think the issue is what West (or Cousy, etc, any great from those early eras) could do, at least not for me, it's what his average competition could do. I'm not arguing he wouldn't be great in today's game, I just think that even if you gave him all the modern training, medicine, dietary knowledge of today, he wouldn't be as head and shoulders above the competition as he was in his day.

There’s too many intrinsic advantages and building off literally himself over the years to directly compare, but he was the trend setter. Literally THE mold of the NBA. The “transplant” nonsense makes no sense given how different the game was, but give him time to adapt as a 16 year old and he would run game on this league, I assure you.

I strongly suspect you are right about West, but even taking him out of it modern players do owe something to the likes of Bill Russell imo. Apart from pretty much inventing NBA defense, possibly being pretty much the ultimate team player and leader of men, being an elite athlete by any standard, and successfully coaching a team to titles while still playing for that team, what he had to put up with, or more to the point wouldn't put up with, changed the way basketball players were treated, and JJ Reddick for one certainly doesn't have to face what Bill, who gets the plumbers and firemen stuff as well, faced.

[Patches Perry]

I am usually quick to hammer old heads who go after the newer generations, but in this case, Redick fired first. I like both guys and I think Redick is half right, but West is absolutely correct. It was a different game back then, and it's just really hard to compare. Honestly, players now are a lot better than they used to be, but you have to grade on a curve. As West pointed out, access to training and financial investment in growth and development now is just worlds different than it was back then.

So Redick is right in a vacuum, but his comments lack a lot of context. West clarifies the context that was missing.

[ODanseTron]

Yea it was a different era definitely, however Cousy and West were both significantly better players than Redick could have ever hoped to be.

[Roscoe Sheed]

I looked at clips of the guys playing in the 60s and it's laughable. Missed layups from running at 100% full speed, guards shooting 15ft hooks, etc. Jerry West has absolutely no right to talk down on Redick considering high school Redick was probably a better player than peak West.

Clown

Among the worst takes I have ever read. The lack of awareness is truly representative of why West had to speak up.

The problem for me is not JJs relatively intelligent podcasts. The problem is when you seek hot take language, lazy idiots repeat it. Guys without JJ's knowledge or context. Just this week I heard stupid tier B talking sports heads repeating the 'plumbers' comments word for word, exact phrasing. And stating as fact that these guys were horrible lazy and unathletic, etc, repeating the 'proof' that these people had the nerve to work during the off season as plumbers and firemen (like young dudes during off hours on a local sports talk). Its like almost every olympic athlete today is similar, but I guess they all suck too and should be disrespected because they 'aint rich like us.'

That is the issue with what JJ said. People are too stupid and lazy to actually study history and just repeat what they've heard. Because of this the world treats people a certain way.

Average young sports fans are, to stereotype, often frustrated insecure young men who are looking for excuses to make fun of people, often those with accomplishments, because they are insecure and never accomplished much themselves. That is what they want to believe, to lower others to their own level of inadequacy. Their lack of success is because their 'era' is so advanced and difficult and that Jerry West or Cousey wouldnt have started on their high school team.

It is absurd. It is the same mentality that had generation of the past (and sadly many still) sincerely believe that people descendent from africa, ireland, Italy, jews or muslims, women or disabled were inferior and deserved the 'disrespect from their betters.'

I completely agree. So many “personalities” on tv and radio are so poorly prepared- it is your job to do the proper research in terms of watching videos and analyzing stats. There’s really no excuse in the modern day- so much is available to them, but they are content with making uninformed comments. The standards are so low

[michaelm]

I am usually quick to hammer old heads who go after the newer generations, but in this case, Redick fired first. I like both guys and I think Redick is half right, but West is absolutely correct. It was a different game back then, and it's just really hard to compare. Honestly, players now are a lot better than they used to be, but you have to grade on a curve. As West pointed out, access to training and financial investment in growth and development now is just worlds different than it was back then.

So Redick is right in a vacuum, but his comments lack a lot of context. West clarifies the context that was missing.

And West is not one of the "it was better in my day" guys to my knowledge anyway, and has a proven record of being among the best judges of modern day playing talent.

[BostonCouchGM]

I am usually quick to hammer old heads who go after the newer generations, but in this case, Redick fired first. I like both guys and I think Redick is half right, but West is absolutely correct. It was a different game back then, and it's just really hard to compare. Honestly, players now are a lot better than they used to be, but you have to grade on a curve. As West pointed out, access to training and financial investment in growth and development now is just worlds different than it was back then.

So Redick is right in a vacuum, but his comments lack a lot of context. West clarifies the context that was missing.

are they though? Or is their "skill" made possible because they're allowed to carry, travel, push off, and use illegal screens? Do players of today know how to dribble, drive, create separation and shoot within the confines of the rules on the books that players from the 1960s had to follow? There's certainly MORE great athletes that's for sure. The pool from which the NBA pulls from is global and the money/incentive is so great that millions are trying to play. But they played with 9 teams. So the competition for those spots was severe. So it's all relative.

[BoatsNZones]

Some dudes have no idea how skilled, professional and athletic West was. Dribbling rules were different then (you had to be close to 12:6, which makes it look more awkward on tape), but his fundamentals were far more sound than most players in this league. He did work against and with Wilt Chamberlain. He would do work with and against anyone. JJ (who I like and respect) is tierrrrs of difference comparison.

I don't think the issue is what West (or Cousy, etc, any great from those early eras) could do, at least not for me, it's what his average competition could do. I'm not arguing he wouldn't be great in today's game, I just think that even if you gave him all the modern training, medicine, dietary knowledge of today, he wouldn't be as head and shoulders above the competition as he was in his day.

I have delved into tape of West pretty deep and seen enough of his games and learned enough about his character to understand a true End Boss when I see one. He was that guy. And he had every element of the game; be it playmaking, defense, shooting from anywhere. Think Luka, but lighter and more athletic, a better defender, a better shooter, and an absolutely killer mentality.

[BoatsNZones]

I don't think the issue is what West (or Cousy, etc, any great from those early eras) could do, at least not for me, it's what his average competition could do. I'm not arguing he wouldn't be great in today's game, I just think that even if you gave him all the modern training, medicine, dietary knowledge of today, he wouldn't be as head and shoulders above the competition as he was in his day.

There’s too many intrinsic advantages and building off literally himself over the years to directly compare, but he was the trend setter. Literally THE mold of the NBA. The “transplant” nonsense makes no sense given how different the game was, but give him time to adapt as a 16 year old and he would run game on this league, I assure you.

I strongly suspect you are right about West, but even taking him out of it modern players do owe something to the likes of Bill Russell imo. Apart from pretty much inventing NBA defense, possibly being pretty much the ultimate team player and leader of men, being an elite athlete by any standard, and successfully coaching a team to titles while still playing for that team, what he had to put up with, or more to the point wouldn't put up with, changed the way basketball players were treated, and JJ Reddick for one certainly doesn't have to face what Bill, who gets the plumbers and firemen stuff as well, faced.

Of course Michael, and there were trend setters before Bill as well. I’m speaking more to the modern game of perimeter shooting/defensive wings who are #1’s that can also playmake. West is the man for this league. And he was the man in his own league as well.