Peak Harden closer to peak Derozan or Jordan?

[FreeThrowLine]

It’s crazy that some people don’t think Harden is a below average defender. He might be capable of playing decent defense but what’s the point if the effort isn’t there?

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

He’s lazy and not paying attention way too often

Watch on YouTube

There’s a LOT more examples out there, so if the only proof is the “eye test” isn’t it enough to see it with our own eyes that he’s lazy and disinterested?

[Plossum]

Derozan. Harden is a bed wetter in the serious games (like DD) and has never been close to the level MJ played at.

[bebopdeluxe]

James Harden - career 0.9 DBPM, 37 defensive win shares

Rajon Rondo - career 1.0 DBPM, 41 defensive win shares

So…Rajon Rondo has been a below-average defensive player in his career?

I picked Rondo as a random guard who has played around as long as Harden, and is generally though if as a solid defender. I bet I could find others. There also may be other advanced defensive metrics that may not reflect well on Harden. However, the numbers do not support your assertion that James Harden has been a “below-average defender” over the course of his career. They just don’t.

A couple of other random names that I looked up for grins:

Ray Allen: -0.7 DBPM (figures)
Dwayne Wade: 0.8 DBPM (similar to Harden in that, by later in his career, his defense had slipped)
Klay Thompson (a guy who was always thought of as a "great" defender): -1.1 DBPM (erk)
Kobe Bryant: -0.1 DBPM (maybe this stat isn't very good after all...)

Michael Jordan: 2.0 career DBPM (for a wing player, that is ridiculous)

Is he a great defender now? Probably not. And he is obviously nowhere near the defender that Jordan was. But during his 6 year prime, he averaged a 1.3 DBPM and over 3.5 defensive win shares per season. That is not "below-average"

Sorry.

So you didn’t actually answer my specific question, but you provided an ‘advanced’ stat that even you can see is flawed.

Any non biased person watching Harden on defense would agree he’s below average. The problem is your regular no name players don’t get acknowledged for playing good defense unless they’re elite

There it is, folks. The good, old-fashioned "eye test".

"I don't care what these new-fangled FACTS and STATISTICS say. I go with my GUT. And my gut says that Harden sucked as a defender. That is all."

And the video clips that you posted - while being real examples of Harden's sub-par defense - don't offset SIX SEASONS of solid NBA caliber defense. I bet you could put together a mixtape of Embiid sucking on D, too.

Again, Harden has NEVER been in MJ's league on D. Would never argue that. I am not arguing that he is any kind of plus-defender today. But from 2014-15 to 2019-20, Harden averaged over 3.5 defensive win shares a season and a 1.3 DBPM. That is STATISTICAL FACT.

Now, if you want to present other defensive metrics that say that, during that 6 season period, Harden sucked on D, feel free to post them. I am sure the board would love to see them.

[FreeThrowLine]

James Harden - career 0.9 DBPM, 37 defensive win shares

Rajon Rondo - career 1.0 DBPM, 41 defensive win shares

So…Rajon Rondo has been a below-average defensive player in his career?

I picked Rondo as a random guard who has played around as long as Harden, and is generally though if as a solid defender. I bet I could find others. There also may be other advanced defensive metrics that may not reflect well on Harden. However, the numbers do not support your assertion that James Harden has been a “below-average defender” over the course of his career. They just don’t.

A couple of other random names that I looked up for grins:

Ray Allen: -0.7 DBPM (figures)
Dwayne Wade: 0.8 DBPM (similar to Harden in that, by later in his career, his defense had slipped)
Klay Thompson (a guy who was always thought of as a "great" defender): -1.1 DBPM (erk)
Kobe Bryant: -0.1 DBPM (maybe this stat isn't very good after all...)

Michael Jordan: 2.0 career DBPM (for a wing player, that is ridiculous)

Is he a great defender now? Probably not. And he is obviously nowhere near the defender that Jordan was. But during his 6 year prime, he averaged a 1.3 DBPM and over 3.5 defensive win shares per season. That is not "below-average"

Sorry.

So you didn’t actually answer my specific question, but you provided an ‘advanced’ stat that even you can see is flawed.

Any non biased person watching Harden on defense would agree he’s below average. The problem is your regular no name players don’t get acknowledged for playing good defense unless they’re elite

There is is, folks. The good, old-fashioned "eye test".

"I don't care what these new-fangled FACTS and STATISTICS say. I go with my GUT. And my gut says that Harden sucked as a defender. That is all."

Again, Harden has NEVER been in MJ's league on D. Would never argue that. I am not arguing that he is any kind of plus-defender today. But from 2014-15 to 2019-20, Harden averaged over 3.5 defensive win shares a season and a 1.3 DBPM. Those are FACTS.

Now, if you want to present other defensive metrics that say that, during that 6 season period, that Harden sucked on D, feel free to post them. I am sure the board would love to see them.

Alright man, I’m done, Harden > Bill Russell, hope that makes you happy

Enjoy him on your team and I’m sure you’ll be on my side once he demands a trade

[NBA4Lyfe]

It’s crazy that some people don’t think Harden is a below average defender. He might be capable of playing decent defense but what’s the point if the effort isn’t there?

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

He’s lazy and not paying attention way too often

Watch on YouTube

There’s a LOT more examples out there, so if the only proof is the “eye test” isn’t it enough to see it with our own eyes that he’s lazy and disinterested?

You could do this with an nba superstar you don’t like. Stephen curry ain’t a good defender either, neither were Nash and nowitizki lol but they won mvps easy

You just don’t like harden, and that’s fine but their IS NOTHING you can do that’s gonna erase his career numbers on basketball reference lol

[bebopdeluxe]

So you didn’t actually answer my specific question, but you provided an ‘advanced’ stat that even you can see is flawed.

Any non biased person watching Harden on defense would agree he’s below average. The problem is your regular no name players don’t get acknowledged for playing good defense unless they’re elite

There is is, folks. The good, old-fashioned "eye test".

"I don't care what these new-fangled FACTS and STATISTICS say. I go with my GUT. And my gut says that Harden sucked as a defender. That is all."

Again, Harden has NEVER been in MJ's league on D. Would never argue that. I am not arguing that he is any kind of plus-defender today. But from 2014-15 to 2019-20, Harden averaged over 3.5 defensive win shares a season and a 1.3 DBPM. Those are FACTS.

Now, if you want to present other defensive metrics that say that, during that 6 season period, that Harden sucked on D, feel free to post them. I am sure the board would love to see them.

Alright man, I’m done, Harden > Bill Russell, hope that makes you happy

Enjoy him on your team and I’m sure you’ll be on my side once he demands a trade

Thanks, bro. Glad to see EXACTLY where you are coming from as far as Harden is concerned.

And to be clear, when he was killing everybody in Houston, I absolutely HATED his flopping azz...which was my way of rationalizing his putting up numbers that only a handful of players IN NBA HISTORY were putting up.

I am honest enough to admit that, now that he is on my team, I hope he recaptures that Houston magic, because I want a parade. But I gotta tell you, Rubin/Fanatics deal on the side or not, the man is leaving STRAIGHT PAPER YO on the table to try to win a ring. What was the offer in Brooklyn? 3/161 or something like that? If he does a Gordon Hayward and blows out his knee on opening night (which I am sure that some in this thread would LOVE to see), that is like $100 million that he walked away from in Brooklyn. You see Flat Earth or Westbrick walking away from that kind of cash? Huh?

Dude has gotten MAJOR respect from the Philly fanbase for doing the team a solid - as he should.

Now all he has to do is show up in May/June. We will see what happens.

[YogurtProducer]

Really there is no proof Harden is a below average defender outside of peoples "eye-tests"... Derozan is an entirely different level of bad and Harden is an entirely different level of offense than Demar is.

Offensively Harden matches MJ - Defensively Demar is easily a tier or two below Hardemn (and MJ tiers above both).

The answer is Jordan. Harden is an MVP ffs I don't understand how anyone can even suggest he is closer to Demar who is nothing.

1. I never suggested Harden is closer to either, I said the topic itself didn’t make sense

2. Offensively Harden doesn’t ‘match’ MJ

3. DD isn’t “nothing”, it seems you have a hatred for him

You are wrong

Harden DOES MATCH JORDAN OFFENSIVELY

Harden averaged 45 in a single month, and had a six game stretch averaging 50

Not to mention harden broke Jordan’s point per 100 possessions record

Bottomline is harden is the most efficient volume scorer since Oscar/west

The Harden hate is out of this world, he 100% is one of the best offensive players of our generation. Essentially here we are asking does an offensive superstar with meh defence compare better to the best two-way player of all time or the guy who sucks on defense and disappears on offense in important games?

Demar just is not even in the same ballpark as these two guys. Harden is a top 50-100 player of all time and Demar might be like what, top 250?

[NBA4Lyfe]

James Harden - career 0.9 DBPM, 37 defensive win shares

Rajon Rondo - career 1.0 DBPM, 41 defensive win shares

So…Rajon Rondo has been a below-average defensive player in his career?

I picked Rondo as a random guard who has played around as long as Harden, and is generally though if as a solid defender. I bet I could find others. There also may be other advanced defensive metrics that may not reflect well on Harden. However, the numbers do not support your assertion that James Harden has been a “below-average defender” over the course of his career. They just don’t.

A couple of other random names that I looked up for grins:

Ray Allen: -0.7 DBPM (figures)
Dwayne Wade: 0.8 DBPM (similar to Harden in that, by later in his career, his defense had slipped)
Klay Thompson (a guy who was always thought of as a "great" defender): -1.1 DBPM (erk)
Kobe Bryant: -0.1 DBPM (maybe this stat isn't very good after all...)

Michael Jordan: 2.0 career DBPM (for a wing player, that is ridiculous)

Is he a great defender now? Probably not. And he is obviously nowhere near the defender that Jordan was. But during his 6 year prime, he averaged a 1.3 DBPM and over 3.5 defensive win shares per season. That is not "below-average"

Sorry.

So you didn’t actually answer my specific question, but you provided an ‘advanced’ stat that even you can see is flawed.

Any non biased person watching Harden on defense would agree he’s below average. The problem is your regular no name players don’t get acknowledged for playing good defense unless they’re elite

There it is, folks. The good, old-fashioned "eye test".

"I don't care what these new-fangled FACTS and STATISTICS say. I go with my GUT. And my gut says that Harden sucked as a defender. That is all."

And the video clips that you posted - while being real examples of Harden's sub-par defense - don't offset SIX SEASONS of solid NBA caliber defense. I bet you could put together a mixtape of Embiid sucking on D, too.

Again, Harden has NEVER been in MJ's league on D. Would never argue that. I am not arguing that he is any kind of plus-defender today. But from 2014-15 to 2019-20, Harden averaged over 3.5 defensive win shares a season and a 1.3 DBPM. That is STATISTICAL FACT.

Now, if you want to present other defensive metrics that say that, during that 6 season period, Harden sucked on D, feel free to post them. I am sure the board would love to see them.

Harden haters don’t like facts

Because if you use facts and numbers, they know harden embarrasses a lot of past greats head to head numbers wise

[YogurtProducer]

It’s crazy that some people don’t think Harden is a below average defender. He might be capable of playing decent defense but what’s the point if the effort isn’t there?

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

He’s lazy and not paying attention way too often

Watch on YouTube

There’s a LOT more examples out there, so if the only proof is the “eye test” isn’t it enough to see it with our own eyes that he’s lazy and disinterested?

You could do this with every NBA player to ever play.

3 videos is not changing the facts from 32617 career minutes he has played.

It is just crazy how Harden has somehow managed a fantastic NBA career while being a horrible defender and not an elite scorer. How did he ever win MVP or compile a 612-330 record in his career being so average?

[mulamutti]

i would say peak iverson. Harden didn't lead his teams to playoff wins, which is mostly what iverson did. Both were the best offensive players in the league, but not the best players in the league. Both didn't care to play defense. DD was never the best offensive player in the league, but from the two options given, is the closer choice. It would be insane to compare him to MJ. maybe his first couple of years or something.

[The Rebel]

Really there is no proof Harden is a below average defender outside of peoples "eye-tests"... Derozan is an entirely different level of bad and Harden is an entirely different level of offense than Demar is.

Offensively Harden matches MJ - Defensively Demar is easily a tier or two below Hardemn (and MJ tiers above both).

The answer is Jordan. Harden is an MVP ffs I don't understand how anyone can even suggest he is closer to Demar who is nothing.

1. I never suggested Harden is closer to either, I said the topic itself didn’t make sense

2. Offensively Harden doesn’t ‘match’ MJ

3. DD isn’t “nothing”, it seems you have a hatred for him

You are wrong

Harden DOES MATCH JORDAN OFFENSIVELY

Harden averaged 45 in a single month, and had a six game stretch averaging 50

Not to mention harden broke Jordan’s point per 100 possessions record

Bottomline is harden is the most efficient volume scorer since Oscar/west

Harden only could do that because they added a step and gather to travels while also changing the dribbling rules, not to mention calling defensive fouls on offense initiated contact. Literally every one of his moves were illegal in the 90s and he still couldn't out score Jordan.

[DavidSterned]

harden is also not popular with the white nba media voters who vote on end of year awards

harden has been screwed outta mvp in 2017 and definetly 2019 nba mvp. if steph curry had those same seasons againist the competiton harden went up againist those years, curry likely wins mvp just because of how popular he is among white media members. Hell stephen curry finished 3rd in mvp and didnt even make the playoffs in 2021

harden on the other hand was left off all nba in 2016 despite average 29/7/6 and leading the nba in total points scored. Also was left off all nba in 2021 despite playing 44 games, when lebron made all nba playing 45 games

harden has been up againist it his entire career from the nba media, and if he played in a sport where the voting had no bias, like the nfl, nhl or mlb his career likely would be seen in a much more favorable light

but to answer the op's question, harden is closer to jordan

Harden has

1. Won a regular season MVP before
2. Only ever "lost" the MVP award to other black players, unless you are delusional enough to think he deserved either of the last two that Jokic won

So what the hell does race have to do with anything?

[FreeThrowLine]

You could do this with an nba superstar you don’t like. Stephen curry ain’t a good defender either, neither were Nash and nowitizki lol but they won mvps easy

You just don’t like harden, and that’s fine but their IS NOTHING you can do that’s gonna erase his career numbers on basketball reference lol

Dear biased Sixers fan

No, you could not do this with any NBA superstar, Harden is special in this category

I don't like or dislike Harden and I have no interest in erasing his career numbers, but please feel free to lol, it's nice to be happy

[FreeThrowLine]

You could do this with every NBA player to ever play.

No you couldn't

3 videos is not changing the facts from 32617 career minutes he has played.

There are PLENTY more videos, I grabbed 3 just before I was heading into a meeting, did you even watch them? That kind of laziness is directly in line with the point I was making which you keep missing

It is just crazy how Harden has somehow managed a fantastic NBA career while being a horrible defender and not an elite scorer. How did he ever win MVP or compile a 612-330 record in his career being so average?

When did I say he wasn't an elite scorer? When did I call him average as an overall player? Are we putting words into each others mouths now?

There's nothing crazy about a player being elite on one end and below average on the other and still having a "fantastic NBA career"...should we start pretending Ben Wallace was above average on offense now simply because he was an elite defender and had a fantastic career?

[FreeThrowLine]

Harden haters don’t like facts

Because if you use facts and numbers, they know harden embarrasses a lot of past greats head to head numbers wise

not even a Harden hater, don't care about him either way, but the fact is he's a below average defender, the only one getting embarrassed is him on Shaqtin a fool

[FreeThrowLine]

You are wrong

Harden DOES MATCH JORDAN OFFENSIVELY

Harden averaged 45 in a single month, and had a six game stretch averaging 50

Not to mention harden broke Jordan’s point per 100 possessions record

Bottomline is harden is the most efficient volume scorer since Oscar/west

[NBA4Lyfe]

Harden haters don’t like facts

Because if you use facts and numbers, they know harden embarrasses a lot of past greats head to head numbers wise

not even a Harden hater, don't care about him either way, but the fact is he's a below average defender, the only one getting embarrassed is him on Shaqtin a fool

You are a harden hater and James harden despite spending his first 3 years coming of the bench has amassed more career points, win shares, assists, vorp and has a higher career bpm than Stephen curry

Both curry and harden were drafted in 2009

Shaqtin a fool mvp, yea the guy who ruined an Emmy nominated show in inside the nba and currently has chuck wanting to leave for the LIV Golf tour. That show went down the toilet the second snaquille was added as a member. Good luck with draymond as a Barkley replacement tnt

[NBA4Lyfe]

You are wrong

Harden DOES MATCH JORDAN OFFENSIVELY

Harden averaged 45 in a single month, and had a six game stretch averaging 50

Not to mention harden broke Jordan’s point per 100 possessions record

Bottomline is harden is the most efficient volume scorer since Oscar/west

Produce numbers and stats. Not memes and things to make you’re argument or give up. At this point you making yourself look worse with each post

[FreeThrowLine]

You are wrong

Harden DOES MATCH JORDAN OFFENSIVELY

Harden averaged 45 in a single month, and had a six game stretch averaging 50

Not to mention harden broke Jordan’s point per 100 possessions record

Bottomline is harden is the most efficient volume scorer since Oscar/west

Produce numbers and stats. Not memes and things to make you’re argument or give up. At this point you making yourself look worse with each post

Yes sir, I would very much like to continue debating this subject with you. I'm sure if I waste my time making an argument with stats and numbers you will change your position as you seem like a very reasonable and non-biased individual. Harden is the greatest scorer ever, he might only do 1 thing better than Jordan (3 point shooting) but we should ignore everything else and nominate him the most elite scorer of all time

ALL HAIL HARDON!

[FreeThrowLine]

You are a harden hater and James harden despite spending his first 3 years coming of the bench has amassed more career points, win shares, assists, vorp and has a higher career bpm than Stephen curry

Both curry and harden were drafted in 2009

Shaqtin a fool mvp, yea the guy who ruined an Emmy nominated show in inside the nba and currently has chuck wanting to leave for the LIV Golf tour. That show went down the toilet the second snaquille was added as a member. Good luck with draymond as a Barkley replacement tnt

Yes sir, because I state Harden is a below average defender that makes me a hater

I don't even like Shaq, in fact I dislike Shaq and couldn't care less about whether he's on TV, but that doesn't change the fact that Harden stars in his segment on the regular and it's based on his defense....or lack thereof