72 Kareem vs 89 MJ

[Cavsfansince84]

I'm making this poll because I think 72 Kareem gets sort of unfairly downgraded due to the playoffs despite it being one of the best regular seasons of all time while people don't really do that with MJ's 89 and 90 seasons(I see a lot of people who have those as his 2nd and 3rd best seasons). MJ lost in 6 games in the ecf to the Pistons while Kareem lost in 6 to the 69 win Lakers and it really took a miracle game from Jim McMillian(42 pts in a 1 pt win) in game 2 to keep them from going down 0-2 to the Bucks. Imagine how perception changes if the Bucks win that series and then beat the 48 win Knicks in the finals.

Kareem rs: 34.8/16.6/4.6/119 ts+/25.4 ws on 111 pace team
MJ rs: 32.5/8.0/8.0/114 ts+/21.2 ws on 97 pace team

Kareem v Lakers: 33.7/17.5/4.8/48% ts
MJ vs Pistons: 29.7/5.5/6.5/56% ts

(edit: I added in an even option in the poll without realizing it would reset the poll. So revote if you need to.)

[Ron Swanson]

Jordan.

'72 Kareem is up there with any individual regular season ever, but you can't really ignore the massive scoring efficiency drop-off (60.3% to 46.2% TS) in the postseason. Kareem struggled matching up with Thurmond in the 1st round, in particular. Whereas I can't say the same about MJ (60.1% postseason TS on greater scoring and play-making volume) even if you want to isolate the Detroit series where Pippen was an absolute no-show.

[Cavsfansince84]

Jordan.

'72 Kareem is up there with any individual regular season ever, but you can't really ignore the massive scoring efficiency drop-off (60.3% to 46.2% TS) in the postseason. Kareem struggled matching up with Thurmond in the 1st round, in particular. Whereas I can't say the same about MJ (60.1% postseason TS on greater scoring and play-making volume) even if you want to isolate the Detroit series where Pippen was an absolute no-show.

This just seems strange to me though to make the defining thing be a series that a player's team won 4 games to 1 by an average of 12 pts. Also, to bring up Pippen in the Det series when Oscar was an ever bigger no show in the Lakers series(9/5/6 on 40%ts). Plus the fact that Kareem went up against perhaps the goat man to man defender in that series or even in both series. I mean granted these are both atg level seasons so its not that much separating them. I just think the difference in how they are perceived is strange.

[capfan33]

It's MJ. I do think MJ at his peak was a level above Kareem even though it's closer than a lot of people probably think. And I agree that 72 gets unfairly dinged by a lot of people due to the playoffs.

1st he was playing against the 2 best post defenders in NBA history and the only 2 guys who ever really gave him problems scoring-wise. Just a brutal combination B2B. Moreover, he was battling tendonitis in his skyhook leg which from the footage and the fact that he wrapped the leg (which he never did) bothered him quite a bit.

Moreover, Oscar was a non-factor with a groin-pull that had reached his stomach, which was a major blow to the Bucks. And despite all this, they almost beat a historically great Lakers team if not for the refs being idiots in Game 2 in a series that was won by razor thin margins.

And 34-17-5 even with slightly below average efficiency isn't at all bad even though you would obviously prefer to see him be a bit more efficient, but given the circumstances it's probably unreasonable to expect him to be uber-efficient anyways.

[Gregoire]

Jordan. Not close. GOAT peak basically.

[falcolombardi]

Jordan. Not close. GOAT peak basically.

Is definetely close

[70sFan]

It's extremely close, Kareem was incredible in 1972. Even in the WCF, you can see how many problems he caused for ATG Lakers team, despite having no help from Oscar. Kareem looked just so good physically in that season.

[70sFan]

Jordan. Not close. GOAT peak basically.

It's definitely close, top tier players all peaked close to each other.

[BenoUdrihFTL]

Something to consider about Jordan's 1989 season:

The powerhouse Detroit Pistons swept the Celtics (10.7 MOV), Bucks (11.8 MOV) and Lakers (6.7 MOV; granted Magic was limited by injury) that postseason en route to the title. The 47-win, 2.13 SRS Bulls somehow managed to take 2 games from them in an ECF series where the MOV was 4.2 and all 4 of Detroit's wins were by single digits. In an ECF series where Jordan absolutely carried Chicago with 30/6/7 (at a series pace of 88) on 56% TS (Detroit held opponents to 51% TS that season) while Scottie Pippen and Ho Grant COMBINED to contribute 19 ppg on 50% TS with 29 AST to 24 TO (Pippen was especially atrocious offensively with 10 ppg and 3 apg on 45% TS). In fact, outside of Jordan the entire Bulls team produced 61 ppg on 51% TS with 79 AST to 64 TO

Give 25yo Jordan a #2 who's capable of serving as a competent release value for when Detroit threw the kitchen sink at him and we might be looking at a Chicago Bulls dynasty that began in 1989

[Cavsfansince84]

Something to consider about Jordan's 1989 season:

The powerhouse Detroit Pistons swept the Celtics (10.7 MOV), Bucks (11.8 MOV) and Lakers (6.7 MOV; granted Magic was limited by injury) that postseason en route to the title. The 47-win, 2.13 SRS Bulls somehow managed to take 2 games from them in an ECF series where the MOV was 4.2 and all 4 of Detroit's wins were by single digits. In an ECF series where Jordan absolutely carried Chicago with 30/6/7 (at a series pace of 88) on 56% TS (Detroit held opponents to 51% TS that season) while Scottie Pippen and Ho Grant COMBINED to contribute 19 ppg on 50% TS with 29 AST to 24 TO (Pippen was especially atrocious offensively with 10 ppg and 3 apg on 45% TS). In fact, outside of Jordan the entire Bulls team produced 61 ppg on 51% TS with 79 AST to 64 TO

Give 25yo Jordan a #2 who's capable of serving as a competent release value for when Detroit threw the kitchen sink at him and we might be looking at a Chicago Bulls dynasty that began in 1989

Same could be said about what the Bucks did too though. They actually outscored the 11.65 srs Lakers in their series and both Kareem/MJ carried a heavy load. The Lakers won their other two series 8-1. MJ was also sort of bad over those last 3 games that the Bulls lost compared to the first 3.

[BenoUdrihFTL]

Something to consider about Jordan's 1989 season:

The powerhouse Detroit Pistons swept the Celtics (10.7 MOV), Bucks (11.8 MOV) and Lakers (6.7 MOV; granted Magic was limited by injury) that postseason en route to the title. The 47-win, 2.13 SRS Bulls somehow managed to take 2 games from them in an ECF series where the MOV was 4.2 and all 4 of Detroit's wins were by single digits. In an ECF series where Jordan absolutely carried Chicago with 30/6/7 (at a series pace of 88) on 56% TS (Detroit held opponents to 51% TS that season) while Scottie Pippen and Ho Grant COMBINED to contribute 19 ppg on 50% TS with 29 AST to 24 TO (Pippen was especially atrocious offensively with 10 ppg and 3 apg on 45% TS). In fact, outside of Jordan the entire Bulls team produced 61 ppg on 51% TS with 79 AST to 64 TO

Give 25yo Jordan a #2 who's capable of serving as a competent release value for when Detroit threw the kitchen sink at him and we might be looking at a Chicago Bulls dynasty that began in 1989

Same could be said about what the Bucks did too though. They actually outscored the 11.65 srs Lakers in their series and both Kareem/MJ carried a heavy load. The Lakers won their other two series 8-1.

Fair point. MJ (33%) and Kareem (32%) scored about the same percentage of their teams' points as significant underdogs vs the eventual champs, however I'll just note that Jordan did so at substantially greater efficiency relative to his teammates (MJ 56% TS to 51% rest of team; Kareem 48% to 47% rest of team). Kareem also got some solid secondary and tertiary scoring from Bob Dandrige and Lucius Allen who combined for 36 ppg on 49% TS (to Kareem's 34 on 48%), whereas Chicago's 2nd and 3rd leading scorers were the vaunted Craig Hodges and Bill Cartwright who combined for 23 ppg on 54% TS (to MJ's 30 on 56%). Full disclosure I've never seen that 1972 series but on paper it seems like MIL had two guys besides Kareem that the LAL defense at least had to pay some attention to, whereas -- outside of some hot 3pt shooting by Hodges -- Chicago really had no one to make Detroit pay for devoting their entire defense to the Jordan Rules

[Cavsfansince84]

Fair point. MJ (33%) and Kareem (32%) scored about the same percentage of their teams' points as significant underdogs vs the eventual champs, however I'll just note that Jordan did so at substantially greater efficiency relative to his teammates (MJ 56% TS to 51% rest of team; Kareem 48% to 47% rest of team). Kareem also got some solid secondary and tertiary scoring from Bob Dandrige and Lucius Allen who combined for 36 ppg on 49% TS (to Kareem's 34 on 48%), whereas Chicago's 2nd and 3rd leading scorers were the vaunted Craig Hodges and Bill Cartwright who combined for 23 ppg on 54% TS (to MJ's 30 on 56%). Full disclosure I've never seen that 1972 series but on paper it seems like MIL had two guys besides Kareem that the LAL defense at least had to pay some attention to, whereas -- outside of some hot 3pt shooting by Hodges -- Chicago really had no one to make Detroit pay for devoting their entire defense to the Jordan Rules

True though those Chi-Det series were extremely slowed down grind fests. So that has to be taken into account. Both teams struggled to score. The focus can't be entirely on offense either. I think Kareem in the 70's had a larger impact defensively than MJ did in the 80's/90's.

[capfan33]

Something to consider about Jordan's 1989 season:

The powerhouse Detroit Pistons swept the Celtics (10.7 MOV), Bucks (11.8 MOV) and Lakers (6.7 MOV; granted Magic was limited by injury) that postseason en route to the title. The 47-win, 2.13 SRS Bulls somehow managed to take 2 games from them in an ECF series where the MOV was 4.2 and all 4 of Detroit's wins were by single digits. In an ECF series where Jordan absolutely carried Chicago with 30/6/7 (at a series pace of 88) on 56% TS (Detroit held opponents to 51% TS that season) while Scottie Pippen and Ho Grant COMBINED to contribute 19 ppg on 50% TS with 29 AST to 24 TO (Pippen was especially atrocious offensively with 10 ppg and 3 apg on 45% TS). In fact, outside of Jordan the entire Bulls team produced 61 ppg on 51% TS with 79 AST to 64 TO

Give 25yo Jordan a #2 who's capable of serving as a competent release value for when Detroit threw the kitchen sink at him and we might be looking at a Chicago Bulls dynasty that began in 1989

Same could be said about what the Bucks did too though. They actually outscored the 11.65 srs Lakers in their series and both Kareem/MJ carried a heavy load. The Lakers won their other two series 8-1.

Fair point. MJ (33%) and Kareem (32%) scored about the same percentage of their teams' points as significant underdogs vs the eventual champs, however I'll just note that Jordan did so at substantially greater efficiency relative to his teammates (MJ 56% TS to 51% rest of team; Kareem 48% to 47% rest of team). Kareem also got some solid secondary and tertiary scoring from Bob Dandrige and Lucius Allen who combined for 36 ppg on 49% TS (to Kareem's 34 on 48%), whereas Chicago's 2nd and 3rd leading scorers were the vaunted Craig Hodges and Bill Cartwright who combined for 23 ppg on 54% TS (to MJ's 30 on 56%). Full disclosure I've never seen that 1972 series but on paper it seems like MIL had two guys besides Kareem that the LAL defense at least had to pay some attention to, whereas -- outside of some hot 3pt shooting by Hodges -- Chicago really had no one to make Detroit pay for devoting their entire defense to the Jordan Rules

This is fair, but at the end of the day the Bucks offense began and ended with Kareem due to Oscar's injury. Kareem took 33 field goal attempts per game, which is ludicrous, especially against an ATG defender like Wilt. Everyone knew where the ball was going every possession and Allen/Dandridge had a much easier time as a result.

The other part of this is that this was a defensively focused series where both sides struggled scoring despite having high powered offenses, and Kareem deserves the lionshare of the credit for making the Lakers offense struggle the way it did in the series. He had significantly more impact on D than MJ which does make this a more competitive comparison.

[OhayoKD]

Jordan. Not close. GOAT peak basically.

That seems pretty dubious.

Kareem was drafted onto a 27 win team like Jordan and then won 56 games as a rookie. Jordan only hit more than 55 in 91 with a team that would have been one of the best in the east without him.

Why is Kareem's peak "not close"?

[Sark]

Jordan. Not close. GOAT peak basically.

That seems pretty dubious.

Kareem was drafted onto a 27 win team like Jordan and then won 56 games as a rookie. Jordan only hit more than 55 in 91 with a team that would have been one of the best in the east without him.

Why is Kareem's peak "not close"?

Kareem wasn't drafted onto a team full of coke heads though. There's only so much a player can do if teammates are in need of rehab.

[Cavsfansince84]

Kareem wasn't drafted onto a team full of coke heads though. There's only so much a player can do if teammates are in need of rehab.

While that's true I'd still say that Kareem brought more impact as a rookie by a decent amount.

[HeartBreakKid]

Something to consider about Jordan's 1989 season:

The powerhouse Detroit Pistons swept the Celtics (10.7 MOV), Bucks (11.8 MOV) and Lakers (6.7 MOV; granted Magic was limited by injury) that postseason en route to the title. The 47-win, 2.13 SRS Bulls somehow managed to take 2 games from them in an ECF series where the MOV was 4.2 and all 4 of Detroit's wins were by single digits. In an ECF series where Jordan absolutely carried Chicago with 30/6/7 (at a series pace of 88) on 56% TS (Detroit held opponents to 51% TS that season) while Scottie Pippen and Ho Grant COMBINED to contribute 19 ppg on 50% TS with 29 AST to 24 TO (Pippen was especially atrocious offensively with 10 ppg and 3 apg on 45% TS). In fact, outside of Jordan the entire Bulls team produced 61 ppg on 51% TS with 79 AST to 64 TO

Give 25yo Jordan a #2 who's capable of serving as a competent release value for when Detroit threw the kitchen sink at him and we might be looking at a Chicago Bulls dynasty that began in 1989

Is this really saying anything? Every superstar could start a dynasty if they got a better team earlier.

You could just as easily say imagine if Larry Bird didn't have massive back problems in 1989 and maybe neither the Pistons or Bulls win.

[SS_Carpathia]

It's extremely close, Kareem was incredible in 1972. Even in the WCF, you can see how many problems he caused for ATG Lakers team, despite having no help from Oscar. Kareem looked just so good physically in that season.

Close, perhaps, but you definitely prefer Abdul-Jabbar, right? You're the '70s guy after all.

[70sFan]

It's extremely close, Kareem was incredible in 1972. Even in the WCF, you can see how many problems he caused for ATG Lakers team, despite having no help from Oscar. Kareem looked just so good physically in that season.

Close, perhaps, but you definitely prefer Abdul-Jabbar, right? You're the '70s guy after all.

Not definitely, but probably.

[ODanseTron]

'89 Jordan by quite some distance. Better regular season and far, far better postseason. Playoffs performance matters much more than regular season and Abdul-Jabbar greatly disappointed in the '72 playoffs.

This is like comparing '16 Curry to '13 LeBron or something like that. It doesn't matter how legendary one's regular season was if he had a meltdown in the playoffs / FInals. At least, it's certainly not better than someone who exploded in the playoffs / Finals.