Peak Harden closer to peak Derozan or Jordan?

[The Rebel]

DOES THAT ONLY BENEFIT HARDEN THO

im not getting you're argument, havent players like steve nash and stephen curry also benefited from the same rules as harden

My argument is that you don't have an argument mine just showed that it is considerably easier to score now than ever, other players could score more, but they do not dominate the ball or play enough minutes, doesn't change the fact that it is easier.

LOL it is not easier man.

Per 100 possessions in MJ's career the NBA hovered between 105-108 points. In Hardens career it has been 104-112. So at most teams are 4 points per 100 possessions more efficient (and that has only started in the last 2-3 seasons) which can 100% per attributed to teams making 5 or so more 3 points per game instead of taking long 2's. That is it. That is the entire difference.

When MJ put up 37ppg the average ORTG was 108.3. When Harden put up 36ppg the averaged ORTG was 110.4. A whopping 2 point difference.

Lmao literally every offensive stat out there and anybody who watched the 90s show that scoring is easier today than it was 20 years ago, but since a Harden homer who never watched Jordan says different so I guess everything and everyone but you are wrong, and Harden is the greatest. Man I wish I was that delusional.

[YogurtProducer]

What are you talking about? Scoring has went up by 19 ppg, pace, and offensive ratings have all jumped since 98. Hell efg% has Increased by .67% since 99 and ts% by almost .5%, those are all huge differences.

In MJ's two highest scoring seasons the NBA averaged 110 and 108ppg. In Harden's is was 111 and 111. When it dropped it was almost entirely due to a drop in pace, not due to better defence.

Per 100 MJ for his career with CHI put up 42 points and Harden is at 39 with HOU (both of their primes). MJ had 7 assists and Harden was at 10.

Any benefit Harden gets from the modern era is more than offset by the slower pace of MJ's era in which he could play more minutes in a game.

Like come on man. Stop trying to downplay one of the greatest offensive players we have ever seen.

Literally the only one arguing that scoring is the same today as the 90s is you, every rule change has been to help the offense, and now Jordan could play more because of pace? Man your ignorance is showing.

When MJ came into the league scoring was 110ppg and it was about 97ppg when he left. Harden came in when it was 100ppg and now it is 110ppg... AKA - the difference is almost nothing and again, has everything to do with taking more 3's, a higher pace, and nothing to do with "scoring is easier".

Again I want to ask - if scoring is so easy, why do we not see more 30+ppg scorers? Why is it that none of the stats back up your claims that scoring is easier?

[YogurtProducer]

My argument is that you don't have an argument mine just showed that it is considerably easier to score now than ever, other players could score more, but they do not dominate the ball or play enough minutes, doesn't change the fact that it is easier.

LOL it is not easier man.

Per 100 possessions in MJ's career the NBA hovered between 105-108 points. In Hardens career it has been 104-112. So at most teams are 4 points per 100 possessions more efficient (and that has only started in the last 2-3 seasons) which can 100% per attributed to teams making 5 or so more 3 points per game instead of taking long 2's. That is it. That is the entire difference.

When MJ put up 37ppg the average ORTG was 108.3. When Harden put up 36ppg the averaged ORTG was 110.4. A whopping 2 point difference.

Lmao literally every offensive stat out there and anybody who watched the 90s show that scoring is easier today than it was 20 years ago, but since a Harden homer who never watched Jordan says different so I guess everything and everyone but you are wrong, and Harden is the greatest. Man I wish I was that delusional.

For what it is worth, I despise James Harden. I think he is a big douche and dislike everything about him.

Can you please show me these offensive stats that show me scoring is easier? Where are these stats and why can no on else other than you seem to find them???? Please, do not point to EFG% (explained solely by the increase in 3-point volume).

Anyone who watches the 90s without any sort of bias can see how horrible defense was then. You literally could not bring the double at guys as it was illegal defense . Any benefits offenses have gotten are completely offset by how much more complicated defensive systems are today.

And FWIW, I have never once said Harden > MJ. I firmly believe MJ > Harden, but people act like Harden is not a top offensive player of all-time and that just is **** false

[NBA4Lyfe]

I like the rating comparison some have used. MJ id put as a 99/100, abd Harden at about a 90-91 out of 100 with Derozan about a 79-80. Vote goes to Closer to MJ.

Capping it at 100 is misleading. Jordan if 99 is probably wayyy better than anyone who is 98 and below but the rating makes it look like they were close. So Harden at 91 isn’t even CLOSE to Jordan’s level. They’re not in any kind of tier together. Harden is closer to Dd.

Peak 3-year BPM:

Jordan: 12.0

Harden: 10.1







DeRozan: 2.8

lol great post

for some reason the harden haters dont like to use logic when making their arguments. Its all eye test based to them

[Ballerhogger]

Neither . He’s not great on defense and not big mid range shot taker . DeRozan not great on defense just to be clear. He’s closer as far value to MJ obviously when comes to peak. He’s a mvp winner . Enough said

[dhsilv2]

My argument is that you don't have an argument mine just showed that it is considerably easier to score now than ever, other players could score more, but they do not dominate the ball or play enough minutes, doesn't change the fact that it is easier.

LOL it is not easier man.

Per 100 possessions in MJ's career the NBA hovered between 105-108 points. In Hardens career it has been 104-112. So at most teams are 4 points per 100 possessions more efficient (and that has only started in the last 2-3 seasons) which can 100% per attributed to teams making 5 or so more 3 points per game instead of taking long 2's. That is it. That is the entire difference.

When MJ put up 37ppg the average ORTG was 108.3. When Harden put up 36ppg the averaged ORTG was 110.4. A whopping 2 point difference.

Lmao literally every offensive stat out there and anybody who watched the 90s show that scoring is easier today than it was 20 years ago, but since a Harden homer who never watched Jordan says different so I guess everything and everyone but you are wrong, and Harden is the greatest. Man I wish I was that delusional.

Jordan's best scoring year wasn't even in the 1990's...Jordan played through at last 2 distinctly different eras from his early 84-91(3) to that 95-98 which was a completely night and day different league. And the stats he just posted are accurate, they're THE offensive stats. There's far more data pointing to better offensive sets offsetting far better defense today. By the mid 90's the NBA was looking more like a free throw shooting contest than basketball by today's standards.

[Peregrine01]

There's probably no better player in history who can put up 60 on the Orlando Magic in the regular season easier than Harden can. Put him in the playoffs though, where the play gets more physical and refs start swallowing the whistle more, and Harden looks a lot closer to Derozan than Jordan.

[JayMKE]

Its a weird question, he's a better player than Derozan but he aint some all time great since he never won anything.

[LarsV8]

Its just so odd seeing people's emotions warp into just absurd opinions.

These poll results....lol

These takes are god awful.

[NBA4Lyfe]

Its a weird question, he's a better player than Derozan but he aint some all time great since he never won anything.

harden 13th all time in mvp shares, top 20 all time in career win shares, and ranks above wade and curry in career vorp

oscar and west only one 1 ring so does that invalidate their careers

[NBA4Lyfe]

There's probably no better player in history who can put up 60 on the Orlando Magic in the regular season easier than Harden can. Put him in the playoffs though, where the play gets more physical and refs start swallowing the whistle more, and Harden looks a lot closer to Derozan than Jordan.

harden has scored 40 on at least every team in the league besides the rockets

[Profound23]

Its a weird question, he's a better player than Derozan but he aint some all time great since he never won anything.

Thought so too....then I thought it made sense as far as a litmus test.

He is better than DD but worse than MJ....so which of the two is he closest to?

I am shocked it's even this close of a swing towards MJ. I would have thought at this point we would see at least 75% DD.

[YogurtProducer]

There's probably no better player in history who can put up 60 on the Orlando Magic in the regular season easier than Harden can. Put him in the playoffs though, where the play gets more physical and refs start swallowing the whistle more, and Harden looks a lot closer to Derozan than Jordan.

That would explain why Hardens playoff stats are almost identical to his RS ones

[madmaxmedia]

Well, he was better than peak DD by a fair margin, but that doesn't put Jordan as the next comparison. If you want to say he was more of a gimmick foul-drawing act than a lethal scorer and finisher, then sure, DD is the comp.

Never put Harden and Jordan in the same sentence tho.

You just did my friend.

[ILOVEIT]

Stop. Please OP, stop. You are either a big Derozan fan or hater of Harden.

Because Derozan was NEVER EVER close to Harden...and I hate Harden's game.

So no....not falling for choosing one of two horrible options.

[madmaxmedia]

Only one thing is for sure, JJ Redick would have crushed all of them.

[D.Brasco]

Well, he was better than peak DD by a fair margin, but that doesn't put Jordan as the next comparison. If you want to say he was more of a gimmick foul-drawing act than a lethal scorer and finisher, then sure, DD is the comp.

Never put Harden and Jordan in the same sentence tho.

You just did my friend.

[TwitterFingers]

Peak Harden is better than peak DeRozan, but not near peak MJ

[tsherkin]

Peak Harden is better than peak DeRozan, but not near peak MJ

The point isn't a direct comparison between MJ and Harden. It's that Harden is closer to MJ than to Derozan.

[Peregrine01]

There's probably no better player in history who can put up 60 on the Orlando Magic in the regular season easier than Harden can. Put him in the playoffs though, where the play gets more physical and refs start swallowing the whistle more, and Harden looks a lot closer to Derozan than Jordan.

That would explain why Hardens playoff stats are almost identical to his RS ones

Harden in his prime:

2017:
RS: 38 PP100, 61% TS
PO: 38 PP100, 58% TS

2018:
RS: 42 PP100, 61% TS
PO: 39 PP100, 55% TS

2019:
RS: 48 PP100, 62% TS
PO: 41 PP100, 57% TS

2020:
RS: 44 PP100, 63% TS
PO: 39 PP100, 64% TS

Not exactly "almost identical". His scoring dips pretty substantially both on volume and efficiency.