90s/2000s player that would be better in todays game

[AleksandarN]

Peja Stojakovic. He would be crazy good. One of best three pointer shooters ever along with elite off ball movement

[bebopdeluxe]

Drazen.

TOO MUCH SWAG

[dc]

Allan Houston
Michael Finley
Cliff Robinson
Brent Barry
Detlef Schrempf

Robinson and Schrempf would both be playing a lot of small ball 5 in today's game. Schrempf would be good at it though Robinson being a weak rebounder would kind of be a problem.

Finley, Houston and Barry would be good today. Probably a little bit better offensively but people shouldn't all of a sudden be thinking that the modern game would all of a sudden make them look like superstars.

Houston's defense in today's switch heavy schemes would be a problem for his team. The guy was also one of the worst rebounding guards in the league, so it'd be an additional problem if his team played small, which is obviously more common in the modern game. He'd be great shooting the ball, obviously, but his lack of being able to do other things well would be exposed as well.

[Grumpy Heat Fan]

Michael Jordan.

In today's open lanes and perimter friendly league... he would average 50 ppg at the SG spot.

[og15]

I can't read all of that without you understanding the concept of defenders being worse because they have less tools to utilize. How can defenders possibly be better? With more defensive tools to utilize you now have reason to put defensive specialists all over your roster.

There's a difference between defenders being worse and defensive rules making it more difficult for defenders. The individual defenders ability on defense is not worse, their ability to defend as effectively is diminished, sure, but that doesn't make the player a worse defender than a similar player under different rules.

This post is about offensive players, so people are not citing defensive guys, and many are citing offensive players who couldn't defend well or were mediocre when they played anyways.

You're saying past defenders were better in general, so they wouldn't have issue defending now, though the person is talking about people citing guys like Keith Van Horn, etc who weren't on the floor for defense, not Michael Curry, but then you are also saying defenders were better because the rules allowed them to be better. But if those rules are no longer available, they are no longer better if the rules is what made them better.

I disagree that if the rules changed to favor defense more, teams would now stick defensive specialists without offensive ability on their rosters. What you are forgetting is that defensive strategies have also changed, so those types of players become liabilities when teams sag way off them, they won't be able to make it up with just defense. Remember that teams built similar to modern rosters, even without playing at the same pace or shooting as many three's were very efficient offensively against other teams built with defensive specialists during that time.

No one now is playing 3 non or limited range shooters in their starting lineup because of defense even if there was more allowance for physicality on defense.

Defensive rules making it more difficult for defenders means that defenders can't simply fall back on physicality, using hands, etc on defense, they have to rely on moving their feet, defensive IQ, etc, which means some guys who could survive defensively with more favorable defensive rules can't anymore. It's also not just defensive rules, it's also offensive strategy which is aimed at consistently picking on the weak defender. If KVH (just an example) is in my starting lineup at the 4, the opposing team is going to run as many pick and rolls with the man guarding him as the screen setter. KVH would need to have really good offensive impact to justify leaving him on the floor. If he doesn't, KVH would still be effective when he plays, but his minutes would be limited which then makes him worse in this era in terms of overall impact and production.

Emphasis is placed on shooting, defense is deemphasized with three second paint rule. Guys today are worse defensively. Some of the best defenders don't get a shot at the NBA these days.

Well, a guy like a Ben Wallace would still make the league and he would be a C, and you would surround him with shooting. He's switchable, mobile, athletic, it's his lack of touch and finishing ability that would be troublesome, but he's good enough on defense that on the right team it works. Even when he played, he had to find the right team for his talents.

Yea, maybe Bo Outlaw doesn't get as much burn or I don't know, Michael Ruffin doesn't make the league. Yea, the Michael Curry's would be weeded out similar to someone like MKG or Hollis-Jefferson, but a guy like Michael Curry never played more than around 20 mpg for a reason. There are also some really good offensive players who don't get to make the league or play as much because they are not effective defensively. The poor defenders that could make the league before and play more who are weeded out now certainly are at least as many as the defense only guys who had no offensive game to speak of who are also weeded out.

Who are the specific players you are citing here though?

[dc]

Michael Jordan.

In today's open lanes and perimter friendly league... he would average 50 ppg at the SG spot.

There's less open lanes in the modern era than there used to be, not more. Not that he wouldn't dominate anyways. He would be shooting more 3s and playing more like Kobe did.

Lebron went to Hakeem to learn the post game after his debacle in 2011 because the Mavs (under the new rules) knew how to pack things in and cut off his freight train drives. You weren't allowed to play defense like that in the past.

[Grumpy Heat Fan]

Michael Jordan.

In today's open lanes and perimter friendly league... he would average 50 ppg at the SG spot.

There's less open lanes in the modern era than there used to be, not more. Not that he wouldn't dominate anyways. He would be shooting more 3s and playing more like Kobe did.

Lebron went to Hakeem to learn the post game after his debacle in 2011 because the Mavs (under the new rules) knew how to pack things in and cut off his freight train drives. You weren't allowed to play defense like that in the past.

It's like opposite world, because you said the exact opposite of reality.

The game has been opened up and the lanes are wide open with no defenders waiting in the paint.

Michael Jordan was 100x the driver that Lebron is. He was faster, and much more acrobatic and creative in his finishes.

[dc]

Michael Jordan.

In today's open lanes and perimter friendly league... he would average 50 ppg at the SG spot.

There's less open lanes in the modern era than there used to be, not more. Not that he wouldn't dominate anyways. He would be shooting more 3s and playing more like Kobe did.

Lebron went to Hakeem to learn the post game after his debacle in 2011 because the Mavs (under the new rules) knew how to pack things in and cut off his freight train drives. You weren't allowed to play defense like that in the past.

It's like opposite world, because you said the exact opposite of reality.

The game has been opened up and the lanes are wide open with no defenders waiting in the paint.

Michael Jordan was 100x the driver that Lebron is. He was faster, and much more acrobatic and creative in his finishes.

Anytime someone does something that is "100x" better than someone else, that's basically Greek Mythology. If MJ was 100x the driver Lebron was, he'd obviously have a higher career FG% than Lebron because he'd be getting layups/dunks left and right, but somehow it's 3% points lower. Maybe it was something less than 100x; I'm just speculating. If MJ was merely 1.2x the driver Lebron is, he'd have a higher FG%.

With the elimination of the illegal defense rule, there can easily be 3 people waiting in the lane now after you beat 1 guy off the dribble. In the past, if you beat 1 guy off the dribble there would be 0 or 1 guy waiting in the lane. In the past, an offense could park a non-shooter at the 3 point line and the opponent (by rule) was forced to guard that guy with somebody. You couldn't give said non-shooter the "Tony Allen" treatment. That would be illegal defense.

Defenses can have multiple people camping in the lane or shading the paint to whatever varying degree they see fit. They have flexibility in doing what they want. In the past, you couldn't do that. You couldn't "shade" a guy over into paint. It'd be illegal defense. You couldn't "shade" a defender over to help out somebody without the ball. That'd be illegal defense.

Bottom line is that in today's game, you can guard an area/space if you want. You couldn't do that in the past. You had to guard a player, even if that guy was a non-scorer.

[SelfishPlayer]

There's a difference between defenders being worse and defensive rules making it more difficult for defenders. The individual defenders ability on defense is not worse, their ability to defend as effectively is diminished, sure, but that doesn't make the player a worse defender than a similar player under different rules.

This post is about offensive players, so people are not citing defensive guys, and many are citing offensive players who couldn't defend well or were mediocre when they played anyways.

You're saying past defenders were better in general, so they wouldn't have issue defending now, though the person is talking about people citing guys like Keith Van Horn, etc who weren't on the floor for defense, not Michael Curry, but then you are also saying defenders were better because the rules allowed them to be better. But if those rules are no longer available, they are no longer better if the rules is what made them better.

I disagree that if the rules changed to favor defense more, teams would now stick defensive specialists without offensive ability on their rosters. What you are forgetting is that defensive strategies have also changed, so those types of players become liabilities when teams sag way off them, they won't be able to make it up with just defense. Remember that teams built similar to modern rosters, even without playing at the same pace or shooting as many three's were very efficient offensively against other teams built with defensive specialists during that time.

No one now is playing 3 non or limited range shooters in their starting lineup because of defense even if there was more allowance for physicality on defense.

Defensive rules making it more difficult for defenders means that defenders can't simply fall back on physicality, using hands, etc on defense, they have to rely on moving their feet, defensive IQ, etc, which means some guys who could survive defensively with more favorable defensive rules can't anymore. It's also not just defensive rules, it's also offensive strategy which is aimed at consistently picking on the weak defender. If KVH (just an example) is in my starting lineup at the 4, the opposing team is going to run as many pick and rolls with the man guarding him as the screen setter. KVH would need to have really good offensive impact to justify leaving him on the floor. If he doesn't, KVH would still be effective when he plays, but his minutes would be limited which then makes him worse in this era in terms of overall impact and production.

Emphasis is placed on shooting, defense is deemphasized with three second paint rule. Guys today are worse defensively. Some of the best defenders don't get a shot at the NBA these days.

Well, a guy like a Ben Wallace would still make the league and he would be a C, and you would surround him with shooting. He's switchable, mobile, athletic, it's his lack of touch and finishing ability that would be troublesome, but he's good enough on defense that on the right team it works. Even when he played, he had to find the right team for his talents.

Yea, maybe Bo Outlaw doesn't get as much burn or I don't know, Michael Ruffin doesn't make the league. Yea, the Michael Curry's would be weeded out similar to someone like MKG or Hollis-Jefferson, but a guy like Michael Curry never played more than around 20 mpg for a reason. There are also some really good offensive players who don't get to make the league or play as much because they are not effective defensively. The poor defenders that could make the league before and play more who are weeded out now certainly are at least as many as the defense only guys who had no offensive game to speak of who are also weeded out.

Who are the specific players you are citing here though?

If that question is about what young excellent defenders are playing amateur basketball these days that will never get a shot at the NBA then that's something that is manipulated at the lowest levels of basketball steering that sort of guy away from defense and more towards making shots. If that question is about defensive specialists that played in the past in the NBA that couldn't get a shot today, then it's a known fact these guys were legislated out of the game. Why ask me for specific names? I didn't create the charge circle. I didn't create defensive three seconds. I didn't eliminate hand checking.

With that said, Bruce Bowen and Raja Bell wouldn't make the NBA today. They were minor league sort of basketball players that bounced around the NBA early in their careers, getting NBA consideration because they flashed unique on ball defense. They both were former Sixers. Their unique on ball defense once established as legitimate and not some kind of "beginner's luck" by the 10 day contract guy, got them jobs. Eventually they developed shot making ability. These days defensive guys have to flat out be able to do more offensively earlier in their careers and/or have a higher pedigree. Raja and Bruce didn't even have impressive measurables. They were naturally great defensive talents whose inner lights/genius were facilitated to grow unfettered without the pressure of being a floor spacer.

[[EverGreen]]

Keith Van Horn. Dude was ahead of his time.

Legit the first person I thought of also.

[SelfishPlayer]

Dana Barros...

[formula 400]

Peja Stojakovic. He would be crazy good. One of best three pointer shooters ever along with elite off ball movement

meh. none of that matters. in any era, it just comes down comes to winning or losing. and this guy led the kings chant for CHOKE CITY

[og15]

Emphasis is placed on shooting, defense is deemphasized with three second paint rule. Guys today are worse defensively. Some of the best defenders don't get a shot at the NBA these days.

Well, a guy like a Ben Wallace would still make the league and he would be a C, and you would surround him with shooting. He's switchable, mobile, athletic, it's his lack of touch and finishing ability that would be troublesome, but he's good enough on defense that on the right team it works. Even when he played, he had to find the right team for his talents.

Yea, maybe Bo Outlaw doesn't get as much burn or I don't know, Michael Ruffin doesn't make the league. Yea, the Michael Curry's would be weeded out similar to someone like MKG or Hollis-Jefferson, but a guy like Michael Curry never played more than around 20 mpg for a reason. There are also some really good offensive players who don't get to make the league or play as much because they are not effective defensively. The poor defenders that could make the league before and play more who are weeded out now certainly are at least as many as the defense only guys who had no offensive game to speak of who are also weeded out.

Who are the specific players you are citing here though?

If that question is about what young excellent defenders are playing amateur basketball these days that will never get a shot at the NBA then that's something that is manipulated at the lowest levels of basketball steering that sort of guy away from defense and more towards making shots. If that question is about defensive specialists that played in the past in the NBA that couldn't get a shot today, then it's a known fact these guys were legislated out of the game. Why ask me for specific names? I didn't create the charge circle. I didn't create defensive three seconds. I didn't eliminate hand checking.

With that said, Bruce Bowen and Raja Bell wouldn't make the NBA today. They were minor league sort of basketball players that bounced around the NBA early in their careers, getting NBA consideration because they flashed unique on ball defense. They both were former Sixers. Their unique on ball defense once established as legitimate and not some kind of "beginner's luck" by the 10 day contract guy, got them jobs. Eventually they developed shot making ability. These days defensive guys have to flat out be able to do more offensively earlier in their careers and/or have a higher pedigree. Raja and Bruce didn't even have impressive measurables. They were naturally great defensive talents whose inner lights/genius were facilitated to grow unfettered without the pressure of being a floor spacer.

The first bolded part is making it seem like defense and shot making are mutually exclusive, they aren't. Why would gearing a guy towards making shots inherently make him a worse defender? That's not really true.

In the current NBA, teams will put a guy like that on their G-League team or at the end of their bench and see if he was develop his shooting there. I don't agree that there would be no opportunity or a player like that to develop into an NBA level role player. I also wouldn't really call Raja a non-shooter pre-NBA.

Finney-Smith was an undrafted player who shot 31% or lower from 3PT his first three seasons and was given time to develop as a shooter. How is he different from a Raja or Bowen?

What about Dort? He was bricking shots as a rookie. Undrafted, got a chance to prove himself, showed his great defense and OKC gave him time to develop his shooting. Those are exactly the type of player you are suggesting wouldn't be able to make it, but they are.

[Jagic Mohnson]

These guys would be sought after in todays game. Dan would be a max player since he is 3 and d.
Sam Perkins
Dan Majerle
Tony Delk
Erik Piatkowski
Hershey Hawkins

[SelfishPlayer]

Well, a guy like a Ben Wallace would still make the league and he would be a C, and you would surround him with shooting. He's switchable, mobile, athletic, it's his lack of touch and finishing ability that would be troublesome, but he's good enough on defense that on the right team it works. Even when he played, he had to find the right team for his talents.

Yea, maybe Bo Outlaw doesn't get as much burn or I don't know, Michael Ruffin doesn't make the league. Yea, the Michael Curry's would be weeded out similar to someone like MKG or Hollis-Jefferson, but a guy like Michael Curry never played more than around 20 mpg for a reason. There are also some really good offensive players who don't get to make the league or play as much because they are not effective defensively. The poor defenders that could make the league before and play more who are weeded out now certainly are at least as many as the defense only guys who had no offensive game to speak of who are also weeded out.

Who are the specific players you are citing here though?

If that question is about what young excellent defenders are playing amateur basketball these days that will never get a shot at the NBA then that's something that is manipulated at the lowest levels of basketball steering that sort of guy away from defense and more towards making shots. If that question is about defensive specialists that played in the past in the NBA that couldn't get a shot today, then it's a known fact these guys were legislated out of the game. Why ask me for specific names? I didn't create the charge circle. I didn't create defensive three seconds. I didn't eliminate hand checking.

With that said, Bruce Bowen and Raja Bell wouldn't make the NBA today. They were minor league sort of basketball players that bounced around the NBA early in their careers, getting NBA consideration because they flashed unique on ball defense. They both were former Sixers. Their unique on ball defense once established as legitimate and not some kind of "beginner's luck" by the 10 day contract guy, got them jobs. Eventually they developed shot making ability. These days defensive guys have to flat out be able to do more offensively earlier in their careers and/or have a higher pedigree. Raja and Bruce didn't even have impressive measurables. They were naturally great defensive talents whose inner lights/genius were facilitated to grow unfettered without the pressure of being a floor spacer.

The first bolded part is making it seem like defense and shot making are mutually exclusive, they aren't. Why would gearing a guy towards making shots inherently make him a worse defender? That's not really true.

In the current NBA, teams will put a guy like that on their G-League team or at the end of their bench and see if he was develop his shooting there. I don't agree that there would be no opportunity or a player like that to develop into an NBA level role player. I also wouldn't really call Raja a non-shooter pre-NBA.

Finney-Smith was an undrafted player who shot 31% or lower from 3PT his first three seasons and was given time to develop as a shooter. How is he different from a Raja or Bowen?

What about Dort? He was bricking shots as a rookie. Undrafted, got a chance to prove himself, showed his great defense and OKC gave him time to develop his shooting. Those are exactly the type of player you are suggesting wouldn't be able to make it, but they are.

Dort and DFS are both younger than Raja and Bowen were. Neither of them qualifies as defensive specialists or even great at defense. There have always been Mario Elie and John Starks types that will give you a gritty full effort on both ends of the court. Defense is so demphasized today that something called a two way player exists. You're supposed to be a two way player! The normal player today is what used to be called an offensive specialist. Hubert Davis...Hubert Davis would be a starter today and be thought of like Buddy Hield or even better.

[JoeyGsShoulders]

I wonder how someone like Donyell Marshall would do. Had super long arms, so even if he lacked footspeed on switches, could cover distance with the hands. Did reasonably well in picking up steals and blocks as a position defender (guys like Jokic, Marc Gaosl, etc. do well as position defenders, despite lack of foot speed). Could rebound and stretch the floor...

But I don't remember seeing him in a ton of switches and don't know how he would handle it...

[Grumpy Heat Fan]

There's less open lanes in the modern era than there used to be, not more. Not that he wouldn't dominate anyways. He would be shooting more 3s and playing more like Kobe did.

Lebron went to Hakeem to learn the post game after his debacle in 2011 because the Mavs (under the new rules) knew how to pack things in and cut off his freight train drives. You weren't allowed to play defense like that in the past.

It's like opposite world, because you said the exact opposite of reality.

The game has been opened up and the lanes are wide open with no defenders waiting in the paint.

Michael Jordan was 100x the driver that Lebron is. He was faster, and much more acrobatic and creative in his finishes.

Anytime someone does something that is "100x" better than someone else, that's basically Greek Mythology. If MJ was 100x the driver Lebron was, he'd obviously have a higher career FG% than Lebron because he'd be getting layups/dunks left and right, but somehow it's 3% points lower. Maybe it was something less than 100x; I'm just speculating. If MJ was merely 1.2x the driver Lebron is, he'd have a higher FG%.

With the elimination of the illegal defense rule, there can easily be 3 people waiting in the lane now after you beat 1 guy off the dribble. In the past, if you beat 1 guy off the dribble there would be 0 or 1 guy waiting in the lane. In the past, an offense could park a non-shooter at the 3 point line and the opponent (by rule) was forced to guard that guy with somebody. You couldn't give said non-shooter the "Tony Allen" treatment. That would be illegal defense.

Defenses can have multiple people camping in the lane or shading the paint to whatever varying degree they see fit. They have flexibility in doing what they want. In the past, you couldn't do that. You couldn't "shade" a guy over into paint. It'd be illegal defense. You couldn't "shade" a defender over to help out somebody without the ball. That'd be illegal defense.

Bottom line is that in today's game, you can guard an area/space if you want. You couldn't do that in the past. You had to guard a player, even if that guy was a non-scorer.

Again, everything you say is opposite of reality.

You say the elimination of illegal defense rule, but ignore the institution of the 3 second defensive rule in 2002. Nobody can camp the paint like they used to.

You bring up Lebron's FG%, and I already told you the lanes are wide open so he's getting easy points and pumping that FG% higher.

[aussiewill]

Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf for a couple of reasons...

[dc]

It's like opposite world, because you said the exact opposite of reality.

The game has been opened up and the lanes are wide open with no defenders waiting in the paint.

Michael Jordan was 100x the driver that Lebron is. He was faster, and much more acrobatic and creative in his finishes.

Anytime someone does something that is "100x" better than someone else, that's basically Greek Mythology. If MJ was 100x the driver Lebron was, he'd obviously have a higher career FG% than Lebron because he'd be getting layups/dunks left and right, but somehow it's 3% points lower. Maybe it was something less than 100x; I'm just speculating. If MJ was merely 1.2x the driver Lebron is, he'd have a higher FG%.

With the elimination of the illegal defense rule, there can easily be 3 people waiting in the lane now after you beat 1 guy off the dribble. In the past, if you beat 1 guy off the dribble there would be 0 or 1 guy waiting in the lane. In the past, an offense could park a non-shooter at the 3 point line and the opponent (by rule) was forced to guard that guy with somebody. You couldn't give said non-shooter the "Tony Allen" treatment. That would be illegal defense.

Defenses can have multiple people camping in the lane or shading the paint to whatever varying degree they see fit. They have flexibility in doing what they want. In the past, you couldn't do that. You couldn't "shade" a guy over into paint. It'd be illegal defense. You couldn't "shade" a defender over to help out somebody without the ball. That'd be illegal defense.

Bottom line is that in today's game, you can guard an area/space if you want. You couldn't do that in the past. You had to guard a player, even if that guy was a non-scorer.

Again, everything you say is opposite of reality.

You say the elimination of illegal defense rule, but ignore the institution of the 3 second defensive rule in 2002. Nobody can camp the paint like they used to.

You bring up Lebron's FG%, and I already told you the lanes are wide open so he's getting easy points and pumping that FG% higher.

The 3 sec rule was to make it so that it wouldn’t become ridiculous the way FIBA ball was played, (and it’s particularly dumb already over there with their trapezoidal lane). Nonetheless, that doesn’t prevent things like shading an extra player over on an offensive player. It’s also 3 often times very generous seconds that refs give and will sometimes miss altogether, just as they often miss offensive 3 second calls all the time. The 3 sec rule also doesn’t apply when a defender is within an arms length of another offensive player, and they’re often pretty liberal with what an arm’s actually length means.

And playing different kinds of zone schemes means you can impede a guys progress to the hoop in multiple locations, not just the paint. That’s what Dallas did to Lebron, who at that point didn’t have a complete offensive game.

Since Lebron has expanded his game with an improved jumper and post up game, he has more than just his freight train drives and he’s become way more difficult to defend.

[SelfishPlayer]

Lebron with a group of bench players and non perennial All Stars from the 90s/2000s could win a title in this era the very first season together:

PG Lebron James, John Starks, Dana Barros
SG Eddie Jones, Hubert Davis, Dell Curry
SF Michael Finley, Mario Elie
PF Sean Elliott, Tayshaun Prince, Detlef Schrempf
C Clifford Robinson