How do you compare Jason Kidd, John Stockton, CP3 and Steve Nash as floor generals?

[mdonnelly1989]

Do you think in terms of Floor Generals these players deserve to be in the same tier?

(This is not talking about who the better PG is. That also includes other things like defense, scoring, intangibles.)

Here we are talking about passing vision, zip, accuracy, finding the open teammate and getting teammates in their perfect shooting spots.


Rank them each and break them down.

[DraymondGold]

Hmm cool question! I tend to lean Nash, but I do personally find it a bit hard to entirely separate scoring from floor-general ability. Why?
1. Different scoring abilities change how defenses guard you. A defender might sag off a bad shooter to block a passing lane, making it harder for them to be a floor general, while a defender might get closer to a good shooter to block their shot (and thus open up a passing lane). Smart players who are both good scorers and playmakers can play these two threats off of each other, so even if one ends up appearing to be the better playmaker, their scoring may still have influenced this ability.
2. Spacing. Spacing can be a form of off-ball playmaking that makes it easier for teammates without the ball, and this obviously connects to scoring ability from distance.

Trying my best to limit the impact of those two factors, I tend to go Nash first. He did play on some offensive-first lineups, but over the course of his prime, he led better offenses relative to his league than any of the other 3 guards by a long shot. His vision is all time, as is his ability to hit passing windows. He's a bit more aggressive with his passing than the others, which does produce worse Assist/Turnover ratios than Stockton or Paul, but it does lead to more "home-run passes" that generate wide open layups/3 point shots for his team (and thus might make up for the turnover risk and help the offense more).

Cp3 and Stockton are always linked in my mind. They're slightly conservative, on-ball passers (not to mention great point guard defenders who can also score), who are just about the best in the business at that form of playmaking... but to me are a hair behind the best in the business at the less conservative form of playmaking (i.e. Magic and Nash).

Kidd might be in this group as a pure passer, but his ability to lead great offenses as an overall floor general seems a touch behind (possibly because of factor 1, where he isn't able to leverage his scoring to help his passing). [For what it's worth, I do see him as the best defender of the group though].

[penbeast0]

I have Chris Paul as the best overall playmaker mainly due to his ability to run a great offense without turnovers. He has other issues like injuries and some personality clashes but in terms of pure playmaking, he's hard to top.

Stockton and Nash are very close for 2nd; Stockton is better at running set plays, Nash better at creating something out of nothing. I lean a little to Stockton whose team numbers are a bit depressed from all the years of playing with offensively challenged centers and small forward (and for that matter, mediocre 2 guards up until Hornacek who was very good). He had Karl Malone who was great, but until Hornacek, that's about all he had.

Nash had great talent around his 2-5 on the SSOL Suns but continued it after Amare, Marion, etc. moved on with the likes of Marcin Gortat so it was clearly Nash and D'Antoni creating a great offense in my mind.

Kidd lags well behind athe rest. He didn't play on great offenses until they took most of his playmaking duties away from him in his second Dallas stint and never seemed to improve his teams that much on the offensive end. He is the best defender but that's not this conversation.

[ShotCreator]

Watching Chris Paul next to Harden, a guy who can actually make plays at a way above average level, you realize just how understated and overlooked passing and playmaking styles are. They’re like fingerprints, everyone is really unique.

Chris Paul was way better, like freakishly good at passing into a shooters pocket. Way better than Harden at this. It explained why Reddick looked overly good next to him for me. Ryan Anderson literally make made more than half the 3’s he shot off a CP3 pass in 2018.

His sense of timing and placement was unteachable.

However, Harden has a much stronger ability to find lobs. Chris Paul just couldn’t find lobs at all these weird angles like Harden.

If you were a teammate of these guys in 2018 I know the court and game would feel very different because the passing tendencies were so different. Raw passing, Harden was…better than CP3.

Just that left hand the ability to squeeze the ball into the best spot at the rim, I don’t think Chris Paul created those shots. Decision making and keeping guys in rhythm though, easily CP3.

Stockton played faster than CP3 so the shots he created were different. Stockton is probably underrated here. I find it hard to put Paul over him.

Kidd is a creative genius but his scoring game took a lot away from what was possible.

Nash is the best overall.

[colts18]

1. CP3. He's been a superstar now for 5 different teams now. You have to read that again. He went to 5 different situations and instantly made them better. OKC was supposed to be a tanking squad competing for the #1 pick, instead he took them to the playoffs and got them within a game of defeating the James Harden Rockets. Then he goes to Phoenix who hasn't made the playoffs in over a decade and turns them into a finals team.

2. John Stockton- As Penbeast mentioned above, Stockton had amazing offenses despite never playing for an offensively-slanted team. If he played for a Dantoni system, he wins 3 MVPs.

3. Steve Nash- It's never mentioned enough how Nash played on the most offensively slanted rosters in his prime for any superstar. All of those on court offensive rating numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt. He played on Don Nelson and Mike D'Antoni's all-offense, no defense rosters. He had freedom, spacing, and the rim runners needed to succeed. It's no coincidence that he was a complete bust before Don Nelson saved his career. Then Mike D'Antoni turned him from an all-star to MVP. Remember that D'Antoni has a track record of making PG's have their best years with him. Remember Raymond Felton? Chris Duhon? James Harden? Kendall Marshall? Do you know who was Jeremy Lin's coach when he had his insane Linsanity run where he went from an unknown undrafted 23 year old to a legit 20-9 PG who was going toe to toe with Kobe? Mike D'Antoni.

4. Jason Kidd- Very underrated. He was a mini-Chris Paul in that everywhere he went, his teams got better while his former teams got worse. If he was a better shooter and finisher, he would rank higher.

[Colbinii]

1. CP3. He's been a superstar now for 5 different teams now. You have to read that again. He went to 5 different situations and instantly made them better. OKC was supposed to be a tanking squad competing for the #1 pick, instead he took them to the playoffs and got them within a game of defeating the James Harden Rockets. Then he goes to Phoenix who hasn't made the playoffs in over a decade and turns them into a finals team.

2. John Stockton- As Penbeast mentioned above, Stockton had amazing offenses despite never playing for an offensively-slanted team. If he played for a Dantoni system, he wins 3 MVPs.

3. Steve Nash- It's never mentioned enough how Nash played on the most offensively slanted rosters in his prime for any superstar. All of those on court offensive rating numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt. He played on Don Nelson and Mike D'Antoni's all-offense, no defense rosters. He had freedom, spacing, and the rim runners needed to succeed. It's no coincidence that he was a complete bust before Don Nelson saved his career. Then Mike D'Antoni turned him from an all-star to MVP. Remember that D'Antoni has a track record of making PG's have their best years with him. Remember Raymond Felton? Chris Duhon? James Harden? Kendall Marshall? Do you know who was Jeremy Lin's coach when he had his insane Linsanity run where he went from an unknown undrafted 23 year old to a legit 20-9 PG who was going toe to toe with Kobe? Mike D'Antoni.

4. Jason Kidd- Very underrated. He was a mini-Chris Paul in that everywhere he went, his teams got better while his former teams got worse. If he was a better shooter and finisher, he would rank higher.

You clearly have a bias. You prop up and post positives about 3 players yet slander Nash.

[Colbinii]

1. Nash

Best feel for how to stretch and exasperated a defensive with his decision making and ability to push the envelope. He could make plays out of thin air in ways the others simply couldn't due to his understanding and feel for the game. He saw the game in a different and unique way--something we have never seen.

2. Chris Paul

The Cerebral offensive maestro who could cut through a defense with precision. The difference between Paul and Nash is CP3 is precise in his actions and was extremely calculated in his movements and actions to beat a defense where Nash was better at finding the corner-case way to beat a defense in the moment. Make no mistake, Paul's ability to orchestrate an offense as a conductor but also play first-chair violin can't be understated.

3. John Stockton

Tremendous manager of a game as a lead ball handler. A maestro in executing his preparation and understanding his teams plan and pulling through the plan. I very much get the vibes of a military-esque style, knowing his role and playing in that role to a T. He would make the best army general of the 4.

4. Kidd

I like him a lot but don't see him in this comparison mostly due to his inconsistent shooting for most of his prime. That doesn't make his impact any less [Well, I do have him less than Nash and CP3] but Kidds ability to get out in the open court and lead a team by playing tremendous defense cant be overstated for what a floor general should be accomplishing. Interesting player to think of who grew up today: Would develop his shot earlier in his career and his size allows him to be a very aggressive lead guard.

[colts18]

1. CP3. He's been a superstar now for 5 different teams now. You have to read that again. He went to 5 different situations and instantly made them better. OKC was supposed to be a tanking squad competing for the #1 pick, instead he took them to the playoffs and got them within a game of defeating the James Harden Rockets. Then he goes to Phoenix who hasn't made the playoffs in over a decade and turns them into a finals team.

2. John Stockton- As Penbeast mentioned above, Stockton had amazing offenses despite never playing for an offensively-slanted team. If he played for a Dantoni system, he wins 3 MVPs.

3. Steve Nash- It's never mentioned enough how Nash played on the most offensively slanted rosters in his prime for any superstar. All of those on court offensive rating numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt. He played on Don Nelson and Mike D'Antoni's all-offense, no defense rosters. He had freedom, spacing, and the rim runners needed to succeed. It's no coincidence that he was a complete bust before Don Nelson saved his career. Then Mike D'Antoni turned him from an all-star to MVP. Remember that D'Antoni has a track record of making PG's have their best years with him. Remember Raymond Felton? Chris Duhon? James Harden? Kendall Marshall? Do you know who was Jeremy Lin's coach when he had his insane Linsanity run where he went from an unknown undrafted 23 year old to a legit 20-9 PG who was going toe to toe with Kobe? Mike D'Antoni.

4. Jason Kidd- Very underrated. He was a mini-Chris Paul in that everywhere he went, his teams got better while his former teams got worse. If he was a better shooter and finisher, he would rank higher.

You clearly have a bias. You prop up and post positives about 3 players yet slander Nash.

I slander Nash because no one on this board who props up Nash's offensive ratings have ever addressed the criticism of the D'Antoni's offenses success on Nash. We now have 15 years of evidence over 4 different teams of D'Antoni effect on Point Guards. It's undeniable at this point.

Phoenix:
-Nash wins 2 MVPs
-Barbosa posts career high numbers in Assists and 3 point shooting

New York:
-Chris Duhon has his best offensive season
-Raymond Felton posts career numbers
-Linsanity posts numbers he never touches again for the rest of his career

Los Angeles:
-Kendall Marshall's only season he looked like a competent NBA player. Finished 2nd in Assist rate.

Houston:
-James Harden's numbers skyrocket with D'Antoni. Wins an MVP and has his 4 best years with D'Antoni


At this point, it's clear that D'Antoni has a special superpower with PG's. All of Nash's offensive numbers have to be adjusted for D'Antoni's offense being ahead of the curve. Steve Nash's Suns were playing like a modern team in a league with 2 Big Men on the court who didn't utilize the 3 point line.

[Texas Chuck]

He didn't play on great offenses until they took most of his playmaking duties away from him in his second Dallas stint

This never happened.

[falcolombardi]

1. CP3. He's been a superstar now for 5 different teams now. You have to read that again. He went to 5 different situations and instantly made them better. OKC was supposed to be a tanking squad competing for the #1 pick, instead he took them to the playoffs and got them within a game of defeating the James Harden Rockets. Then he goes to Phoenix who hasn't made the playoffs in over a decade and turns them into a finals team.

2. John Stockton- As Penbeast mentioned above, Stockton had amazing offenses despite never playing for an offensively-slanted team. If he played for a Dantoni system, he wins 3 MVPs.

3. Steve Nash- It's never mentioned enough how Nash played on the most offensively slanted rosters in his prime for any superstar. All of those on court offensive rating numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt. He played on Don Nelson and Mike D'Antoni's all-offense, no defense rosters. He had freedom, spacing, and the rim runners needed to succeed. It's no coincidence that he was a complete bust before Don Nelson saved his career. Then Mike D'Antoni turned him from an all-star to MVP. Remember that D'Antoni has a track record of making PG's have their best years with him. Remember Raymond Felton? Chris Duhon? James Harden? Kendall Marshall? Do you know who was Jeremy Lin's coach when he had his insane Linsanity run where he went from an unknown undrafted 23 year old to a legit 20-9 PG who was going toe to toe with Kobe? Mike D'Antoni.

4. Jason Kidd- Very underrated. He was a mini-Chris Paul in that everywhere he went, his teams got better while his former teams got worse. If he was a better shooter and finisher, he would rank higher.

You clearly have a bias. You prop up and post positives about 3 players yet slander Nash.

I slander Nash because no one on this board who props up Nash's offensive ratings have ever addressed the criticism of the D'Antoni's offenses success on Nash. We now have 15 years of evidence over 4 different teams of D'Antoni effect on Point Guards. It's undeniable at this point.

Phoenix:
-Nash wins 2 MVPs
-Barbosa posts career high numbers in Assists and 3 point shooting

New York:
-Chris Duhon has his best offensive season
-Raymond Felton posts career numbers
-Linsanity posts numbers he never touches again for the rest of his career

Los Angeles:
-Kendall Marshall's only season he looked like a competent NBA player. Finished 2nd in Assist rate.

Houston:
-James Harden's numbers skyrocket with D'Antoni. Wins an MVP and has his 4 best years with D'Antoni


At this point, it's clear that D'Antoni has a special superpower with PG's. All of Nash's offensive numbers have to be adjusted for D'Antoni's offense being ahead of the curve. Steve Nash's Suns were playing like a modern team in a league with 2 Big Men on the court who didn't utilize the 3 point line.

Harden was a star before and after d'antony. He came when harden was in his 7th season in the league and had already had his superstar breakout

The rest of the guys you mention thrived relatively speaking with d'antony but you cannot really be comparing linsanity hot stretch to nash leading a goat tier offensive dinasty?

[SHAQ32]

CP3
Nash
Stockton
Kidd

[penbeast0]

He didn't play on great offenses until they took most of his playmaking duties away from him in his second Dallas stint

This never happened.

Going to go back and watch those Dallas playoff runs with Kidd and Dirk and see if my memory is wrong. Generally, I trust you to know Mavs stuff better than I do.

[DraymondGold]

To those taking CP3 or Stockton first, do you also have them as the better overall offensive player over Nash? If not, where does Nash close the gap?

[penbeast0]

(a) CP3, yes, Stockton, no, though it's reasonably close but Nash is a better shooter than either.
(b) He doesn't, he ranks behind both CP3 and Stockton, though ahead of Kidd both as a floor general and overall.

[iggymcfrack]

Didn't read the question before voting and took CP3. As a pure passer, it's obviously Nash. He's ahead of everyone all-time except Magic for that. If you factor in defense though, it's obviously completely different.

[LukaTheGOAT]

1. CP3. He's been a superstar now for 5 different teams now. You have to read that again. He went to 5 different situations and instantly made them better. OKC was supposed to be a tanking squad competing for the #1 pick, instead he took them to the playoffs and got them within a game of defeating the James Harden Rockets. Then he goes to Phoenix who hasn't made the playoffs in over a decade and turns them into a finals team.

2. John Stockton- As Penbeast mentioned above, Stockton had amazing offenses despite never playing for an offensively-slanted team. If he played for a Dantoni system, he wins 3 MVPs.

3. Steve Nash- It's never mentioned enough how Nash played on the most offensively slanted rosters in his prime for any superstar. All of those on court offensive rating numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt. He played on Don Nelson and Mike D'Antoni's all-offense, no defense rosters. He had freedom, spacing, and the rim runners needed to succeed. It's no coincidence that he was a complete bust before Don Nelson saved his career. Then Mike D'Antoni turned him from an all-star to MVP. Remember that D'Antoni has a track record of making PG's have their best years with him. Remember Raymond Felton? Chris Duhon? James Harden? Kendall Marshall? Do you know who was Jeremy Lin's coach when he had his insane Linsanity run where he went from an unknown undrafted 23 year old to a legit 20-9 PG who was going toe to toe with Kobe? Mike D'Antoni.

4. Jason Kidd- Very underrated. He was a mini-Chris Paul in that everywhere he went, his teams got better while his former teams got worse. If he was a better shooter and finisher, he would rank higher.

You clearly have a bias. You prop up and post positives about 3 players yet slander Nash.

I slander Nash because no one on this board who props up Nash's offensive ratings have ever addressed the criticism of the D'Antoni's offenses success on Nash. We now have 15 years of evidence over 4 different teams of D'Antoni effect on Point Guards. It's undeniable at this point.

Phoenix:
-Nash wins 2 MVPs
-Barbosa posts career high numbers in Assists and 3 point shooting

New York:
-Chris Duhon has his best offensive season
-Raymond Felton posts career numbers
-Linsanity posts numbers he never touches again for the rest of his career

Los Angeles:
-Kendall Marshall's only season he looked like a competent NBA player. Finished 2nd in Assist rate.

Houston:
-James Harden's numbers skyrocket with D'Antoni. Wins an MVP and has his 4 best years with D'Antoni


At this point, it's clear that D'Antoni has a special superpower with PG's. All of Nash's offensive numbers have to be adjusted for D'Antoni's offense being ahead of the curve. Steve Nash's Suns were playing like a modern team in a league with 2 Big Men on the court who didn't utilize the 3 point line.

What about what Nash did in 2010 without D'Antoni in his age 35 season, no less?

2009-2010 Steve Nash:

(stats are per 75)

• 18.9 points
• 3.8 rebounds
• 12.7 assists
• 4.1 3PAs (+7.1 r3P%)
• 61.5 TS% ( +7.2 rTS%)
• 50.7 FG%
• 93.8 FT%
• orchestrated a top 10 offense in league history (+7.7 rORtg)

The Suns made it to the WCF, putting up a competitive series before losing to the eventual champions.

I mean we haven't really ever so more than maybe a couple guards (Steph might be the only one) who were so good offensively at 35. I think Nash is an all-timer anyway you slice, even without D'Antoni directly being there.

[colts18]

Harden was a star before and after d'antony. He came when harden was in his 7th season in the league and had already had his superstar breakout

The rest of the guys you mention thrived relatively speaking with d'antony but you cannot really be comparing linsanity hot stretch to nash leading a goat tier offensive dinasty?

You are proving my point. If Jeremy Lin and Raymond Felton can thrive with D'Antoni, imagine what an all-star like Nash can do? Become an MVP. We saw the exact same thing with Harden who was a star player who became a superstar under D'Antoni