Who is a comparable player to Prime Penny Hardaway in terms of impact?

mdonnelly1989 · Post #1 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Sat Jul 30, 2022 1:53 am

Doesn't have be play style wise.

Just in terms of skill/talent/ability/impact. The total package.

SickMother · Post #2 » by **SickMother** » Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:38 am

Using Win Shares & WS/48 as a jumping off point I'd say these are the three closest seasons to peak Penny...

95-96 Penny: 24.6 PER | 112 TS+ | 14.4 WS | .229 WS/48 | 21.7 PPG | 7.1 AST | 4.3 REB
71-72 Frazier: 21.6 PER | 114 TS+ | 14.5 WS | .223 WS/48 | 23.2 PPG | 5.8 AST | 6.7 REB
[TS+, WS and WS/48 all within fractions, Penny more playmaking, Walt more defense/rebounding.]

95-96 Penny: 24.6 PER | 112 TS+ | 14.4 WS | .229 WS/48 | 21.7 PPG | 7.1 AST | 4.3 REB
63-64 J West: 24.2 PER | 116 TS+ | 14.0 WS | .232 WS/48 | 28.7 PPG | 5.6 AST | 6.0 REB
[smallest PER margin, West more dynamic scoring/rebounding, Penny with the AST edge.]

95-96 Penny: 24.6 PER | 112 TS+ | 14.4 WS | .229 WS/48 | 21.7 PPG | 7.1 AST | 4.3 REB
96-97 G Hill: 25.5 PER | 104 TS+ | 14.6 WS | .223 WS/48 | 21.4 PPG | 7.3 AST | 9.0 REB
[pretty close across the board, Penny more efficient scoring, Grant better rebounding.]

falcolombardi · Post #3 » by **falcolombardi** » Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:51 am

Probably a superstar

Penny seems to have packed quite the offensive punch, hyper efficient scorer who prefered to use that threat to set up teammstes first (and was apparently quite good at it)

That is a very magic-esque profile if obviously not quite as good

mdonnelly1989 · Post #4 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:33 pm

SickMother wrote:Using Win Shares & WS/48 as a jumping off point I'd say these are the three closest seasons to peak Penny...

95-96 Penny: 24.6 PER | 112 TS+ | 14.4 WS | .229 WS/48 | 21.7 PPG | 7.1 AST | 4.3 REB
71-72 Frazier: 21.6 PER | 114 TS+ | 14.5 WS | .223 WS/48 | 23.2 PPG | 5.8 AST | 6.7 REB
[TS+, WS and WS/48 all within fractions, Penny more playmaking, Walt more defense/rebounding.]

95-96 Penny: 24.6 PER | 112 TS+ | 14.4 WS | .229 WS/48 | 21.7 PPG | 7.1 AST | 4.3 REB
63-64 J West: 24.2 PER | 116 TS+ | 14.0 WS | .232 WS/48 | 28.7 PPG | 5.6 AST | 6.0 REB
[smallest PER margin, West more dynamic scoring/rebounding, Penny with the AST edge.]

95-96 Penny: 24.6 PER | 112 TS+ | 14.4 WS | .229 WS/48 | 21.7 PPG | 7.1 AST | 4.3 REB
96-97 G Hill: 25.5 PER | 104 TS+ | 14.6 WS | .223 WS/48 | 21.4 PPG | 7.3 AST | 9.0 REB
[pretty close across the board, Penny more efficient scoring, Grant better rebounding.]

Let's use those 3 against the top 3 seasons against Isiah Thomas and where do we stand?

SickMother · Post #5 » by **SickMother** » Sun Jul 31, 2022 12:23 am

mdonnelly1989 wrote:
SickMother wrote:Using Win Shares & WS/48 as a jumping off point I'd say these are the three closest seasons to peak Penny...

95-96 Penny: 24.6 PER | 112 TS+ | 14.4 WS | .229 WS/48 | 21.7 PPG | 7.1 AST | 4.3 REB
71-72 Frazier: 21.6 PER | 114 TS+ | 14.5 WS | .223 WS/48 | 23.2 PPG | 5.8 AST | 6.7 REB
[TS+, WS and WS/48 all within fractions, Penny more playmaking, Walt more defense/rebounding.]

95-96 Penny: 24.6 PER | 112 TS+ | 14.4 WS | .229 WS/48 | 21.7 PPG | 7.1 AST | 4.3 REB
63-64 J West: 24.2 PER | 116 TS+ | 14.0 WS | .232 WS/48 | 28.7 PPG | 5.6 AST | 6.0 REB
[smallest PER margin, West more dynamic scoring/rebounding, Penny with the AST edge.]

95-96 Penny: 24.6 PER | 112 TS+ | 14.4 WS | .229 WS/48 | 21.7 PPG | 7.1 AST | 4.3 REB
96-97 G Hill: 25.5 PER | 104 TS+ | 14.6 WS | .223 WS/48 | 21.4 PPG | 7.3 AST | 9.0 REB
[pretty close across the board, Penny more efficient scoring, Grant better rebounding.]

Let's use those 3 against the top 3 seasons against Isiah Thomas and where do we stand?

This is what I would have as peak Zeke...

84-85 Isiah: 22.2 PER | 97 TS+ | 11.2 WS | .173 WS/48 | 21.2 PPG | 13.9 AST | 4.5 REB

Thomas is way ahead of the pack assist wise, but also way behind the pack in scoring efficiency. Win Shares thinks the efficiency deficit is more harmful than the assist advantage is beneficial compared to the players above & I agree with that assessment.

sp6r=underrated · Post #6 » by **sp6r=underrated** » Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:52 am

falcolombardi wrote:Probably a superstar

Penny seems to have packed quite the offensive punch, hyper efficient scorer who prefered to use that threat to set up teammstes first (and was apparently quite good at it)

That is a very magic-esque profile if obviously not quite as good

Yup, he was the last major guard for a long-time who was more influenced by Magic than Michael. So sad his career was wrecked by injuries.

kcktiny · Post #7 » by **kcktiny** » Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:30 am

Absolutely a superstar - at the time.

At the end of 1995-96 Penny Hardaway was already all-NBA 1st team twice, and was 3rd in MVP voting that season. At that time we were all being told he was the second coming of Magic Johnson - and it sure seemed like he was.

He was that good.