Who will have a bigger legacy? Reggie Miller or Jimmy Butler

[Godymas]

Reggie Miller makes the NBA top 75. Now obviously the pure accolades doesn't seem to justify it. 5x All Star 3x All NBA 1x 50-40-90

The argument for Reggie was "well he turned it up in the playoffs, carried the Pacers to deep playoff runs, had many memorable moments and iconic games"

Yet I look at Jimmy Butler today and can't help but see someone that's not finished with their prime and has pretty much beaten Reggie in almost reasonable metric of the argument that was given to him.

Butler has more All Star selections (6 so far), more All NBA selections (4 so far), more All Defense selections (5 so far), won MiP and led the league in Steals one season.

Like Reggie he's been the #1 option for deep playoff runs having led Miami to the finals and last season to the ECF plus the years he spent in Chicago in the post DRose era.

Right now today, is Jimmy Butler good enough legacy wise to knock Reggie Miller off the top 75 all time?

Jimmy Butler Career 17.7 ppg - 5.3 Rbd - 4 Ast - 1.6 Stl .5 Blk

Reggie Miller Career 18.2 ppg - 3 rbd - 3 ast - 1.1 stl .1 Blk

Jimmy despite the slight dip in scoring shows to be the more productive on the court player. This is also with him being a 2.6 ppg and 8.6 ppg scorer his first 2 years.

Reggie Miller played for a long time, lasted until 39 and scored 25k career points which is impressive. Right now Jimmy might project to finish 18k points, maybe could stretch to 20k, but also with his injury history won't likely last as long. I will also say that Jimmy's numbers are severely lowered due to the first 3 years he played in the league taking a while to develop his game. Reggie on the other hand scored 2k points his 3rd year which stayed the most points he scored in a season.

Is Reggie Miller overrated in his legacy? I can't see how the argument exists that his 17 year career was more impressive compared to what Jimmy has done in a 8 year stretch.

[HeartBreakKid]

You stated at the beginning that Reggie Miller's All-star and All-NBA selections underrate him, and your first and perhaps most key point is that Jimmy Butler has more awards than him?


The point thing is a bit ridiculous. You didn't even bother to list their efficiency. Reggie Miller and Jimmy Butler are not comparable as scorers, Butler's rookie year of only scoring 2 points is irrelevant to that. They also played in different eras, which you seemingly thought was not worth mentioning but it was worth mentioning that the Heat went to the finals?

Making it seem like they are close as scorers because they both average around 18 PPG is like saying Allen Iverson and Michael Jordan are close as scorers because they both average 33+ ppg.

Reggie Miller's efficiency is substantial higher than Jimmy Butler and he did it in an era with lower overall efficiency and lower 3 point shooting volume (which is Miller's specialty).

You're also comparing their career averages despite the fact that Miller has played more and his career is done (which means his twilight years are included).


Jimmy Butler is a more well rounded player, but you're trying to phrase it like Jimmy Butler is basically equal to Miller in scoring but does more things which isn't true. Jimmy Butler is not in Reggie Miller's tier as a scorer, and that isn't even taking into account Miller does these things without needing the ball.


Jimmy Butler is not as good as Reggie Miller. As for whether he would knock Miller out of a top 75, I doubt it - Miller is more famous and well known, likely more respected by his peers and has been part of the media himself for decades.

[Godymas]

You stated at the beginning that Reggie Miller's All-star and All-NBA selections underrate him, and your first and perhaps most key point is that Jimmy Butler has more awards than him?


The point thing is a bit ridiculous. You didn't even bother to list their efficiency. Reggie Miller and Jimmy Butler are not comparable as scorers, Butler's rookie year of only scoring 2 points is irrelevant to that.

Making it seem like they are close as scorers because they both average around 18 PPG is like saying Allen Iverson and Michael Jordan are close as scorers because they both average 33+ ppg.

Reggie Miller's efficiency is substantial higher than Jimmy Butler and he did it in an era with lower overall efficiency and lower 3 point shooting volume (which is Miller's specialty).

You're also comparing their career averages despite the fact that Miller has played more and his career is done (which means his twilight years are included).


Jimmy Butler is a more well rounded player, but you're trying to phrase it like Jimmy Butler is basically equal to Miller in scoring but does more things which isn't true. Jimmy Butler is not in Reggie Miller's tier as a scorer, and that isn't even taking into account Miller does these things without needing the ball.


Jimmy Butler is not as good as Reggie Miller. As for whether he would knock Miller out of a top 75, I doubt it - Miller is more famous and well known, likely more respected by his peers and has been part of the media himself for decades.

Jimmy Butler has 57% TS for his career, Reggie has 61.4% TS. The numbers are the same for both the regular season and playoffs. You're using one singular metric to justify Reggie (efficiency) as better than Butler when anyone can see Butler has the more complete game. The trade-off in TS is completely worth it because of how elite Butler is on the defensive side of the ball. The relative TS that Reggie adds is not greater than what Butler can do better than Reggie for the other 50% of the game.

Yes Reggie Miller was very much capable off ball, Butler is somewhat capable off ball lacks the shooting and versatility to be as effective. Certainly Butler could set more screens if required. He is still an effective cutter, effective with the hockey assist, getting into position. Reggie and Butler have comparable usage rates for their entire career. Reggie is more capable off ball because he has the natural shooting ability. What else does Reggie provide off ball aside from being able to catch and shoot?

Reggie Miller is going to stick out like a sore thumb for years when people look back at the top 75 and more and more people that didn't watch him play become aware of it. He is going to get called out a ton.

[Owly]

I can see some argument that some overrate Reggie on here (versus where I imagine I might have him), depending on what measures you trust, how much weight you want to put on playoffs.

I can see that Butler, at a glance holds up well in the playoffs (two notable recent runs) and thus there could be comparison in that light (guys holding up well in the playoffs).

To the comp as players I'd have to look closer to get a serious analysis. To "legacy" that's always fuzzy and not something I'm too invested in.

That said ...

raw incomplete slashline type measures are a very crude measure (and in this instance ignore Miller's huge strengths in longevity of quality and efficiency).

I'm not sure I can agree with a framing that seems to imply it's somehow an artificial or false or misleading advantage or otherwise some how bad to Miller that he came out ready to take on a big role quickly and was great in year 3. I don't get where that was going.

I don't really understand the framing of Butler "knock[ing] ... Miller out of the top 75". The way I think about it, the top 75 (done seriously) is the top 75 players and when Miller is 75th and someone passes him that person would I suppose knock him out if we are to care about that. I wouldn't just allocate a "scoring wing playoff maintainer/elevator" spot. So it would be a remarkable coincidence (and for those higher on Miller impossible) if Butler would be the one to knock him out of the 75.

[Ein Sof]

Reggie Miller led the league in TS Add in 1991 and 1992.

Nice agenda thread btw.

[Sign5]

Legacy? Tough, maybe Miller but I'd prefer Butler to lead my team between the two choices personally. Reggie was the better scorer while Butler is/was better at everything else by a good degree.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Would you say Steph, Harden or KD, would be worthy of being top 75 ever just on the basis of their scoring ability? Because if so, I think Miller still deserves consideration.

Reggie Miller in the Playoffs from 1990-99:
• 27.0 Points/75 on +11.3 rTS%

Kevin Durant in the playoffs from 2012-19:
• 29.0 Points/75 on +6.2 rTS%

Steph Curry in the playoffs from 2014-19:
• 28.0 Points/75 on +9.0 rTS%

James Harden in the playoffs from 2015-21:
• 28.1 Points/75 on +5.5 rTS%

Being maybe the 2nd greatest shooter ever and adding more value through just off-ball play than any guy outside of Steph is really impressive. He wasn't just a shooter, he was a SCORER!

And he was a great player whose scoring ability extended into the early 2000s.

[sp6r=underrated]

Is Reggie Miller overrated in his legacy? I can't see how the argument exists that his 17 year career was more impressive compared to what Jimmy has done in a 8 year stretch.

Miller is overrated now is the heart of this thread so I'm going to focus on Reggie Miller and table the Jimmy Butler comparison.

Unlike some others on this board I consider as evidence All-NBA Teams, All-NBA Vote Share, MVP Awards and MVP Award Share. I don't consider All-Stars or All Defensive Awards. Recognition is a good datapoint for showing how a player was regarded in his time. If you're arguing against the consensus position of a player's contemporaries you need strong evidence. I do consider Miller a top 50 player all-time but will acknowledge that goes blatantly against the consensus of the time.

There is very strong statistical evidence that Miller's value was missed. He played at a similar high level for an extremely long period of time. He ended up in the top 30 all-time for many cumulative box score metrics. His career average for BPM is still top 50 all time despite logging so many minutes. The cornerstone of his high statline is his scoring combined with all-time great efficiency. Efficiency is underappreciated now but woefully in the past. Voters simply didn't realize the value of a guy who'd reliably hit 60+ TS at roughly 20 ppg.

[JVL]

People still talk about Reggie Miller, 22 years after his last All-Star appearance.

No one will talk about Jimmy Butler in 24 years (if he also sniffs the AS game for the last time at 34yo like Miller) unless he wins a ring as the main guy.

That's all that matters. Legacy is what people talk about when you're long gone. You can do dozens of statistical reviews and comparisons, doesn't change the fact that Butler is on barely anyone's tongues in his prime, let alone 2 decades after his prime.

[Cavsfansince84]

Seems strange to me that you are trying to frame Jimmy Butler being top 75 by saying he must take Reggie's spot which I don't see as accurate personally. I mean sure we can compare them as players but the biggest difference between them is length of prime and longevity. I think you can make a good case for Jimmy at his best being better than Reggie.

[Dutchball97]

I do think Butler already peaked higher than Reggie but in overall career value it's a different story. I think All-Star and All-NBA selections are a bit too subjective to base head to head rankings on, especially when we're talking about guys who are usually kind of on the bubble so barely making it and just missing out are suddenly viewed worlds apart when that's far from the truth.

First of all it's important to remember Reggie has over double the minutes and games played as Butler has done so far. With Butler turning 33 in september he's never going to come anywhere close to how much Reggie played in his career. A bit of a crude measuring stick but one I find gives at least a decent ballpark, we can see Reggie Miller has a significant lead in WS (174.4 against Butler's 93.6). You'll notice Butler has over half Miller's WS (same goes for VORP btw) but that's because Reggie's average WS per year gets brought down due to his valuable but not elite post-prime years Butler still has to go into, at the same age Miller was actually ahead of Butler. I find Miller's 11 seasons with 10+ WS compared to Butler's 2 seasons of 10+ WS to be more impactful than the small advantage for Butler in awards. A big reason for this is Butler playing less than 70 regular season games in all but two of his seasons (2013, 2017), which also explains the large games/minutes lead Miller still has over Butler. However, the games you don't play are a negative because your team is now without a max player for those games and are much less likely to win. When you're missing around 20 games a seasons that's going to hurt.

So in short they're comparable players with a slight edge to Butler at their peak but Miller has a sizeable longevity advantage Butler is very unlikely to even come close to.

[Doctor MJ]

Something I'll bring up from a long-term legacy perspective is this:

It's significant that the avatar of modern basketball play (Steph Curry) is more influenced by Reggie Miller in how he plays than any other player.

Seriously doubt we'll ever say something like that about Butler.

[No-more-rings]

Butler is probably the better player, but I find it doubtful he’s remembered as fondly.

[Godymas]

Jimmy Butler is better than Reggie Miller, it's impossible to deny at this point.

[HeartBreakKid]

Jimmy Butler is better than Reggie Miller, it's impossible to deny at this point.

I think it is still quite possible to deny it but the question is about legacy. Reggie Miller is way more famous than Jimmy Butler.

[SilentA]

Miller was the second best shooting guard through most of the 90s (outside a couple of Drexler years, and I classify peak Penny as a PG) and is better offensively than Butler with top tier TS%. He also bent defenses almost as much as Steph in an era where shooting 3s and sophisticated off-ball movement offenses weren't really a thing outside of cutting and mid-range curl screen type actions (he could also get to the rim + draw fouls). He wasn't bad on defense either, even if it wasn't his strength.

That said, Butler is a great player as well and obviously has the defensive edge. They're close. But Reggie is not overrated whatsoever by being included in the top 75. When the top 100 comes around I expect Butler to be included, and these two players will be around the same tier (Miller offensive edge, Butler defensive edge), with Butler's longevity and accolades over his final few years vs Miller's longevity being a tiebreaking type factor.

[ty 4191]

Jimmy Butler has 57% TS for his career, Reggie has 61.4% TS.

Butler career relative TS% including playoffs: +5.7%

Reggie career relative TS% including playoffs: +8.3%

And, Reggie played until he was 39.

Butler is 33 and hasn't even had a long decline phase yet.

[Cavsfansince84]

I'm really high on Reggie all time(to the point I made a lot of arguments backed up with data for him in the last top 100) but I think what Jimmy has been able to do in some of these playoff series the last 3 years is more of an outlier than anything we ever saw from Reggie outside of maybe one series. Now granted I think it's a friendlier environment now to some degree but Jimmy's size and length combo is going to work in any era and its not like he's doing it by spamming 3's either. In short, I think Jimmy is right there with almost all those guys in the 35-60 range in terms of what he's shown he can somewhat consistently do in the playoffs and better than many. His longevity isn't great but again there are some guys in that range who didn't have great longevity either. If he makes another finals this year I think he deserves serious consideration for being top 60 in the next top 100. That's without even considering if he got a fmvp. Which isn't as high as Reggie but Reggie had like 14 straight years of being a huge factor on offense.

[ty 4191]

Reggie Miller in the Playoffs from 1990-99:
• 27.0 Points/75 on +11.3 rTS%

Has anyone ever sustained this kind of volume production and efficiency for an entire decade in the playoffs?

Somehow, I seriously doubt it.

[cupcakesnake]

I almost made a GB thread the other day asking "is Jimmy Butler this era's Reggie Miller?"

Obviously they're so different stylistically. One is one of the best shooters ever and gets most of their value from their all-time ridiculous scoring efficiency/resiliency. The other is a defensive demon with a questionable jump shot who can do a passable Michael Jordan impression almost every time he needs to. But despite the opposite skill sets, both these players are special for their focus and motor. They both have a certain ruthlessness and competitiveness that helps set them apart in the playoffs.

Both of them were underappreciated in the regular season. Jimmy has only made the all-star team twice in the last 5 years, despite ending most years with being discussed as a top 5 player. Reggie only made 5 all-star teams, which is one of the reasons casual fans don't understand why some people rank him so high.

Reggie went to 6 Eastern Conference Finals in 10 years, 5 of them as the clear-cut offensive engine of his team. He did this in a very good Eastern Conference. The Bulls, Knicks, Hawks, Magic, and Cavs were all good teams over a lot of Reggie's career. In his first ECF run, his 5th-seeded Pacers took out the 4-seed Shaq Magic and the 1-seed Nique Hawks before losing in 7 to the 2-seed Knicks. His Pacers were never considered to be overly talented. Reggie's had a few borderline all-star teammates over the years (Rik Smits, Detlef Schremf, Dale Davis, young Jalen Rose). Playoff opponents never really had an answer for him.

Jimmy is now in his third ECF in a very similar way, and has that same trademark monster competitiveness and unsolvability. He doesn't have the same consistent offensive firepower that Reggie had, but his superior defense closes the gap. His last 2 years the offensive firepower has been there, even if no one can touch Reggie's efficiency. He's leading a team with 1 other all-star, and some ragtag veterans and role players.

I'm not saying it's a 1-to-1 perfect comparison, but I think they play the same character in their respective eras. Perpetually underappreciated all-time great who morphs into a top 5 player in the playoffs and goes on an absolute rampage.