Are the Knicks even better than the Pistons?

[cgf]

The Knicks have lots of key players in their primes or on the decline. Rose and Randle aren't getting better. Fournier isn't still getting better. I think the Knicks do have some room to climb the next few years but I don't think they've got a top end talent like Cade at the moment who I'd expect to be an all-star by year 3 at the latest.

…the Knicks have 4 players over 24yo; Brunson (25), Randle (26), Fournier (29), and Rose (33).

Is that a lot of key players in their prime? Or would it be more accurate to say that two key players have entered their primes? Given that Rose is a bench guy when healthy and the FO has been trying to dump Fournier for free since before the TDL…

Knicks don’t have a Cade and even though they have the ammo to trade for one & this FO has shown good patience so far, the franchise hasn’t earned the benefit of the doubt on getting the right guy or paying the right price.

So I think it’s fair to expect Detroit to take a leap that we probably won’t, until that #1 option trade happens…but the Knicks are young team with just two key players in the early stages of their primes.

Rose has often looked like your best player since you've traded for him. He had by far the best +/- on the team two years ago, and he had the best +/- on the team again last season. It's hard to say how much he falls off since he missed so much time his body might not be as worn out as it should be for his age and he could keep playing late into his 30s like Grant Hill did, but we'll have to wait and see.

When healthy Rose has been very important to us and his injury last season was when the wheels came off. But a) though very important, he was never our best player, and b) his fragility is why we can’t rely on him as a key player.

That’s why Quickley had to learn to be more of a PG last season; something that started to click for him in the back half of the season. It’s also why our FO just made Jalen Brunson the 14th highest paid PG in the NBA.

They did that so that anything Rose gives us on the court can be a bonus, not one of the essential-ingredients that we fall apart without.

[DrCoach]

Cades still a Piston

and?

Jerami Grant wasn’t our best player

Grant 16.1

Cade 13.1 (Below league average)

Detroit lost their best player

[DrCoach]

Got tired of the Knicks always being in the news so proceeded to passive aggressively diss them on RealGM.

Here is the thing bro'. It is call "Jalousie". It is mind boggling to them(non Knicks fans) that a team who hasn't won in a long while are more relevant than teams with multiple superstars on their roster.
By the way, Cade Cunningham has not proven anything yet in the NBA, Jaden Ivey flopped in the NCAA tournament and hasn't played a game in the NBA. Let those guys have an impact in the NBA yet before you guys making statements about the Pistons better than the Knicks.

The Knicks aren't relevant to anyone outside of NY. They just happen to be at the center of a huge media hub so they get click bait pieces written about them. Of course, nothing actually ever happens....but hey...they were in the news! Hello relevancy!?

If they werent relevant hey wouldnt have random threads from detroit posters

[sfernald]

I understand it when the Knicks aren’t mentioned on the general board. We haven’t done enough to warrant discussion. So threads like these out of nowhere seem like hate, though as a franchise we don’t face much to hate on. So it must be they just hate NYC or it’s people, which I get. We’re brash and talk a lotta shyt, but in the end people just hate us cause they ain’t us.

As for the teams, draft picks have their highest values before the picks are made. Then with high picks it’s assumed they’ll be superstars, but there are way more Andrew Wiggins than Lebron James. I love Cade as a prospect, but this talk of him being a guaranteed stud is super premature. Same with Ivey. He might be Jah; he might be Kris Dunn. Just because you don’t know their ceilings doesn’t mean they have higher ceilings than the current Knicks players.

The entire Knicks core is 23-26. That’s basically entering their primes. They all still have growth. RJ gets ragged on but he’s still has had game winners and dropped 46 on good teams like the Heat. Obi Toppin dropped 42 late in the season. Mitchell Robinson is one of the best defensive players in the league. It is entirely possible the Knicks young core is not only better than, but will be better than the Detroit core. Add to that, the Knicks have way more picks than Detroit does, so we have the flexibility to get better in a hurry with the right trade. I don’t think it’ll be Mitchell since Ainge likes to run peoples pockets, but we’ll be better than Detroit for the next five years easily. The pistons were not the right team to use in this example.

I have no pony in this race, but Detroit has one of the most desirable, best fitting young rosters in the league. I would not be surprised at all for them to make a Memphis like climb starting as soon as this year. I just love Cade, Ivey, Duren and Bey. What an exciting team they will have next year! They are sure to be a league pass favorite!

Knicks, well, they will keep on Knicking as long as Dolan’s in control. Very little chance of developing players. Always in win now mode. They would have been so much better to do a Presti style rebuild but that will never happen. When you look up mediocre in the dictionary, the Knicks are on the top of a large heap of teams. But hey at least you got that little sneaker dude who used to make decent movies.

I get it, but everything you just said is based on potential. The Knicks were just a 4 seed a year ago. For all the talk of detroits youth, I think in a blind poll of league executives, Toppin and RJ Barrett would rank higher than Bey and Duren. We’ve yet to see Ivey, and Detroit was a bad team also for longer than the Knicks have been a bad team. If you don’t have faith in the Knicks’ brass or ownership, wtf has Detroit done to make you think they’d be better, besides picking into Cade? Detroit is in the Orlando, Washington, Sacramento, Charlotte class of teams that have consistently had high picks and are still never good. The Knicks have had more recent success than any of those teams, Detroit included. That’s my point. The point of tanking continuously is that you’re going to miss on at least half of your picks. There’s literally no evidence that Detroit won’t be one of the five worst teams for years to come.

Man, I do hope things finally work out for the Knicks via draft or one of these big trades.Would be so fun for Knicks fans to have something to finally brag about.. Good luck to you guys this year!

[RHODEY]

Here is the thing bro'. It is call "Jalousie". It is mind boggling to them(non Knicks fans) that a team who hasn't won in a long while are more relevant than teams with multiple superstars on their roster.
By the way, Cade Cunningham has not proven anything yet in the NBA, Jaden Ivey flopped in the NCAA tournament and hasn't played a game in the NBA. Let those guys have an impact in the NBA yet before you guys making statements about the Pistons better than the Knicks.

The Knicks aren't relevant to anyone outside of NY. They just happen to be at the center of a huge media hub so they get click bait pieces written about them. Of course, nothing actually ever happens....but hey...they were in the news! Hello relevancy!?

If they werent relevant hey wouldnt have random threads from detroit posters

[kamaze]

No ,Detroit got way better youngsters and a future

Knicks are not even best team in their own city

Facts

[baldur]

Are the Pistons better than any team in the league?

[tmorgan]

This thread is classic.

Starts with a Pistons fan creating a really strange comparison.
Then we get irritated Knicks fans clapping back.
A bunch of Nets posters saying the Knicks suck.
Other Pistons fans saying the Knicks are almost certainly better this year.
Knicks fans still irritated and taking the smack talk even further into the past.

Great thread, folks.

Oh, and the Knicks would need to semi-implode to win fewer games than the Pistons this year. We’ll be lucky to win 35 tops, and it’s very likely Weaver maneuvers us into a tank mid-season (if such maneuvers are even necessary) for one more lotto pick. We’ve got a guy changing position (Stewart), an extremely raw center (Duren), a primary scorer that doesn’t know what a good shot is yet (Ivey), a turnstile that can score (Bey), a bunch of passable-at-best vets that will play, and Cade. Cunningham would have to go completely supernova as a sophomore to make Detroit a playoff team.

[Mr Peanut]

and?

Jerami Grant wasn’t our best player

Grant 16.1

Cade 13.1 (Below league average)

Detroit lost their best player

Clearly didn't watch many (if any?) Pistons games last season. Not that I blame you if that was the case. But using PER solely to justify your viewpoint kind of just destroyed your whole argument.

[Synciere]

I have no pony in this race, but Detroit has one of the most desirable, best fitting young rosters in the league. I would not be surprised at all for them to make a Memphis like climb starting as soon as this year. I just love Cade, Ivey, Duren and Bey. What an exciting team they will have next year! They are sure to be a league pass favorite!

Knicks, well, they will keep on Knicking as long as Dolan’s in control. Very little chance of developing players. Always in win now mode. They would have been so much better to do a Presti style rebuild but that will never happen. When you look up mediocre in the dictionary, the Knicks are on the top of a large heap of teams. But hey at least you got that little sneaker dude who used to make decent movies.

I get it, but everything you just said is based on potential. The Knicks were just a 4 seed a year ago. For all the talk of detroits youth, I think in a blind poll of league executives, Toppin and RJ Barrett would rank higher than Bey and Duren. We’ve yet to see Ivey, and Detroit was a bad team also for longer than the Knicks have been a bad team. If you don’t have faith in the Knicks’ brass or ownership, wtf has Detroit done to make you think they’d be better, besides picking into Cade? Detroit is in the Orlando, Washington, Sacramento, Charlotte class of teams that have consistently had high picks and are still never good. The Knicks have had more recent success than any of those teams, Detroit included. That’s my point. The point of tanking continuously is that you’re going to miss on at least half of your picks. There’s literally no evidence that Detroit won’t be one of the five worst teams for years to come.

Pistons hired Troy Weaver in June 2020.

Bit hard to blame him for anything that happened with the franchise prior to his arrival.

That'd be like blaming Leon Rose for the Knicks poor management

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app

But his point was that Knicks have the same ownership, which is the same situation as Detroit. If you're looking at just executives, then Detroit having a new GM in Weaver puts the Pistons on equal ground at most with the Knicks, who also have recent hires in the front office. None of that has anything to do with the price of tea in China though. None of that makes the case that Detroit is in a better position than the Knicks.

[bstein14]

Cade post all-star break... 21.1 PPG, 6.5 APG, 5.7 RPG, 45.7 FG% was our best player without a doubt. Assuming he stays healthy this offseason, he'll be even better. He's seemingly been using being an afterthought in the ROY voting as fuel to the fire in preparation for this season. Hopefully its legit and not just some offseason fluff.

Knicks became the first team in history to give a non all-star a $100+ million contract this summer. Don't get me wrong, I like Brunson and think he plays winning basketball, and knows how to run a team. But it's not like they added a top 30 player to their team. Cade is likely to step into being a top 30 player in year two.

[Jadoogar]

RJ Barrett is hella overrated. thats all.

It’s because he is Canadian…. Everything from Canada is overrated

No one overrates anything else from Canada.

Poutine, a little overrated. The only good poutine is from Costco.

[Scalabrine]

I’m just saying they haven’t improved much on paper and the pistons roster just looks better on paper

They lost some depth too
Noel
Burks
Walker
Gibson

I think the vets on the kicks are still capable of a 40-win season. The ceiling is much higher with pistons however .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Didn't realize they lost so much they're going to miss those players.

I think the team will really miss Burks but everyone else was replaceable players and they still have quite a bit of depth.

Robinson/Hartenstein/Sims
Randle/Toppin/Reddish
Barrett/Fournier/Reddish
Grimes/Quickley/Fournier
Brunson/Rose/Quickley/McBride

[chrbal]

and?

Jerami Grant wasn’t our best player

Grant 16.1

Cade 13.1 (Below league average)

Detroit lost their best player

You’re using PER as your argument? We better extend Olynyks contract then, his was better than Grants. We’re going to regret losing Garza then to.

Dude, just stop

[iLLmatic860]

It’s because he is Canadian…. Everything from Canada is overrated

No one overrates anything else from Canada.

Poutine, a little overrated. The only good poutine is from Costco.

Since when does Costco sell Poutine?

[Jadoogar]

No one overrates anything else from Canada.

Poutine, a little overrated. The only good poutine is from Costco.

Since when does Costco sell Poutine?

they do in Canada, idk about the states. actually really good

[cgf]

Cade post all-star break... 21.1 PPG, 6.5 APG, 5.7 RPG, 45.7 FG% was our best player without a doubt. Assuming he stays healthy this offseason, he'll be even better. He's seemingly been using being an afterthought in the ROY voting as fuel to the fire in preparation for this season. Hopefully its legit and not just some offseason fluff.

Knicks became the first team in history to give a non all-star a $100+ million contract this summer. Don't get me wrong, I like Brunson and think he plays winning basketball, and knows how to run a team. But it's not like they added a top 30 player to their team. Cade is likely to step into being a top 30 player in year two.

Tbf, Brunson’s 26M a year isn’t even close to a top 30 salary, so it’s not like he’s being expected to be a top 30 player. He’s the 14th highest paid PG this season and good-starter-level PG play is all that the team is hoping for out of him.

We won 37 games with Kemba’s corpse & Alec Burks masquerading as a PG, once Rose got hurt. Getting a quality starter alone will be a tremendous upgrade to our team, that helps all of our other players do better.

Cade’s eventual leaps & what our FO does with the warchest they’ve been collecting, are the wildcard here…but even if Cade makes the leap this year, is the supporting cast around him going to be ready to win 40+ games without more experience?

[RHODEY]

Jerami Grant wasn’t our best player

Grant 16.1

Cade 13.1 (Below league average)

Detroit lost their best player

You’re using PER as your argument? We better extend Olynyks contract then, his was better than Grants. We’re going to regret losing Garza then to.

Dude, just stop

Stop what...telling the truth?

[bstein14]

Cade post all-star break... 21.1 PPG, 6.5 APG, 5.7 RPG, 45.7 FG% was our best player without a doubt. Assuming he stays healthy this offseason, he'll be even better. He's seemingly been using being an afterthought in the ROY voting as fuel to the fire in preparation for this season. Hopefully its legit and not just some offseason fluff.

Knicks became the first team in history to give a non all-star a $100+ million contract this summer. Don't get me wrong, I like Brunson and think he plays winning basketball, and knows how to run a team. But it's not like they added a top 30 player to their team. Cade is likely to step into being a top 30 player in year two.

Tbf, Brunson’s 26M a year isn’t even close to a top 30 salary, so it’s not like he’s being expected to be a top 30 player. He’s the 14th highest paid PG this season and good-starter-level PG play is all that the team is hoping for out of him.

We won 37 games with Kemba’s corpse & Alec Burks masquerading as a PG, once Rose got hurt. Getting a quality starter alone will be a tremendous upgrade to our team, that helps all of our other players do better.

Cade’s eventual leaps & what our FO does with the warchest they’ve been collecting, are the wildcard here…but even if Cade makes the leap this year, is the supporting cast around him going to be ready to win 40+ games without more experience?

I've already stated that its almost certain that the Knicks will be better in 22-23.... I think the two teams are likely close in 23/23 but the Pistons also have $63-$70 million in cap space next summer as well so much will depend on how that's used.

It's better for the Knicks for the Pistons to become good sooner rather than later because that first round pick could disappear from Detroit and turn into a 2nd if the Pistons stay at the bottom a few more years.

[chrbal]

Grant 16.1

Cade 13.1 (Below league average)

Detroit lost their best player

You’re using PER as your argument? We better extend Olynyks contract then, his was better than Grants. We’re going to regret losing Garza then to.

Dude, just stop

Stop what...telling the truth?

Acting as PER by itself determines the best player. Boston had 4 guys with higher PERs than Tatum and Brown. So you’re going to tell me you’d rather have Robert Williams over Tatum or Brown