Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #14 - 1963-64 Oscar Robertson

[AEnigma]

^ The point of the runoff is for people who did not have one of those three names to say which of the three they prefer. You are the exact type of person who should be voting in this runoff.

[trex_8063]

These projects are not a binary between people who love to trumpet Robinson and those who are more critical, and that is an odd assumption to make even if you are not bothering to read posts here. The majority of people are in fact not voting for Robinson; that is why we keep ending up in these three-way tiebreakers. I would be amazed if someone who has posted hundreds of words on how impressed they are by Robinson could ever be swayed to suddenly throw that vote away, and if anything, I find it disrespectful to assume people would drop clearly enshrined beliefs the instant they confronted with some base level flaw. When I argue with some pro-David Robinson essay, the point is not to make the writer rethink their perspective on basketball; the point is to provide a counter for everyone else still trying to determine their position, because those who are less invested in his vote are much more likely to be receptive.

I think it's possible for people to shift [over time] on what you've called "enshrined beliefs" (I have).

Certainly you're right that no one is going to immediately flip an enshrined position right now after reading 1 or 2 counter-points. But over time, being confronted with varying counter-points over and over, it can have the effect of whittling people down. In the here-and-now, they'll appear obstinate to their debate opponent; but in actuality they may be slowly shifting their position by very small increments over long periods of time.

I believe that happens [sometimes].

So even aside from the people how haven't firmly established their positions, debate can still have that value.

[AEnigma]

Perhaps, but it would be a very much unexpected benefit. And in this specific case, you were part of pretty much every thread I referenced and probably read everything I shared at some point. You have more or less had your position on Robinson for years now, across multiple projects, to the point that I feel like you reuse chunks of your old posts in each new project because nothing really has changed. And that is a basic reality: the more enshrined a belief is, the more difficult it is to disrupt it, and the more exposed you probably have been to prior (failed) disruptions. Like, most of us have a pretty entrenched position on peak Lebron versus peak Jordan. There are not many novel arguments left, and anything that is novel is mostly based around new data — and even that is probably unlikely to meaningfully sway anyone one way or another (as we have recently seen). But for any neutral parties reading? Well, there is much more likely something they have not considered, so they make more sense as the intended audience.

[f4p]

Incidentally, I ended up procrastinating on the vote because I'm thinking more about my choice of Erving.

It seemed like '76 Erving was getting ready to come off the board like 2 or 3 rounds ago and now he's not even making it into 3-way tiebreakers. Maybe some of his voters just weren't around for the last rounds, but it's almost like it's being re-thought in real time.

[Dutchball97]

Incidentally, I ended up procrastinating on the vote because I'm thinking more about my choice of Erving.

It seemed like '76 Erving was getting ready to come off the board like 2 or 3 rounds ago and now he's not even making it into 3-way tiebreakers. Maybe some of his voters just weren't around for the last rounds, but it's almost like it's being re-thought in real time.

Dr J still got 2 first place votes but I missed the round (I also have him first) so that'd have been 3 first place votes like the previous rounds. I'm not sure if that'd have been enough to include him in the run-off though as the rest seems to not have him even near this range for some reason.

[LA Bird]

Here are the results for round 14

Winner: 64 Robertson

There were 13 voters in this round: AEnigma, SickMother, trex_8063, capfan33, Samurai, iggymcfrack, trelos6, f4p, ardee, Ron Swanson, 70sFan, DraymondGold, Proxy

A total of 26 seasons received at least 1 vote: 06 Bryant, 06 Wade, 08 Bryant, 09 Wade, 11 Nowitzki, 17 Leonard, 21 Jokic, 22 Jokic, 50 Mikan, 51 Mikan, 63 Robertson, 64 Robertson, 65 Robertson, 65 West, 66 West, 67 West, 68 Hawkins, 68 West, 69 West, 70 West, 76 Erving, 77 Walton, 83 Malone, 94 Robinson, 95 Robinson, 96 Robinson

Top 5 seasons
66 West: 1.000 (24-0)
94 Robinson: 1.000 (22-0)
64 Robertson: 0.958 (23-1), loses to 66 West
22 Jokic: 0.880 (22-3), loses to 64 Robertson, 66 West, 94 Robinson
77 Walton: 0.833 (20-4), loses to 22 Jokic, 64 Robertson, 66 West, 94 Robinson

H2H record
66 West vs 94 Robinson: 4-4
66 West vs 64 Robertson: 4-3
66 West vs 22 Jokic: 6-2
66 West vs 77 Walton: 5-3
94 Robinson vs 64 Robertson: 4-4
94 Robinson vs 22 Jokic: 4-3
94 Robinson vs 77 Walton: 4-3
64 Robertson vs 22 Jokic: 6-2
64 Robertson vs 77 Walton: 6-3
22 Jokic vs 77 Walton: 5-3

Tiebreaker
West: 3 (f4p, Doctor MJ, Ginoboleee)
Robinson: 1 (Dr Positivity)
Robertson: 6 (eminence, Dutchball97, CharityStripe34, SickMother, AEnigma, falcolombardi)

[Doctor MJ]

Incidentally, I ended up procrastinating on the vote because I'm thinking more about my choice of Erving.

It seemed like '76 Erving was getting ready to come off the board like 2 or 3 rounds ago and now he's not even making it into 3-way tiebreakers. Maybe some of his voters just weren't around for the last rounds, but it's almost like it's being re-thought in real time.

Yup, and to be clear, I always try to use projects like these to re-think in real time. Doesn't necessarily mean I end up changing my vote on that project, but it plants the seeds for changes going forward.

[NBA4Lyfe]

not gonna write a long drawn out paragraph

but is their any reason why 2020 james harden is not the in the running for 2nd best sg peak of the modern era. his advanced stats were insane. led raptor, led raptor in the playoffs, before the covid stoppage was on track to break single season vorp record, bpm was in the upper 10 range. Was second in offensive bpm and 19th in defensive bpm. Had an average win shares per 48 but it was still good for second in the league

Since we are considering players peaks who didnt win a title. I dont see any other 2 guard who was on the level of 2020 harden