Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #15 - 1965-66 Jerry West

[falcolombardi]

That's true, slashers do benefit from more spacing, but like you say Wade's advantage as a slasher over West is far from large (if he even does have the advantage).

And I wouldn't think I"d have to convince people that in 2022, shooting is valuable and shooting 17% on 3s is bad... How far back would defenders be from Wade? How much more would opposing defenses get to clog the paint (both for Wade and Wade's teammates) because Wade's distance shooting was atrocious? And this is in comparison to the best shooter of an entire decade being given a 3 point line for the first time. Am I the crazy one here??

Why are you using 17% as wade baseline?

No-more-rings had both Wade years over West, with one of the primary reason being that he thinks Wade's scoring would adjust better to today's 3-point-heavy league.

But Wade shot 17% from 3 in 06, a whopping 18.7% below his league average! He shot 31% from 3 in 09... which is the single best shooting year of his entire prime... and still -5% below league average back then.

I'm just using basketball reference for 3P%. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html

Edit: I see that you responded with Wade's overall efficiency. It's great that Wade's overall efficiency was so high, but like I said in my post... West beats Wade by a massive margin in playoff efficiency if we're taking 1 year sample, a clear margin for 2 year samples, and a large margin again in longer samples.

If wade was able to be that efficient (absurd efficiency even for 2022 standards) in a era where he didnt benefit from modern spacing and smaller front courts how much more could he do with those benefits?

His scoring volume and efficiency at his best is absurd even if you judged it on modern standards

Of course same applies to the logo, i am just pointing out that i think you are a bit too low on what wade was doing out there

[DraymondGold]

Why are you using 17% as wade baseline?

No-more-rings had both Wade years over West, with one of the primary reason being that he thinks Wade's scoring would adjust better to today's 3-point-heavy league.

But Wade shot 17% from 3 in 06, a whopping 18.7% below his league average! He shot 31% from 3 in 09... which is the single best shooting year of his entire prime... and still -5% below league average back then.

I'm just using basketball reference for 3P%. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html

Edit: I see that you responded with Wade's overall efficiency. It's great that Wade's overall efficiency was so high, but like I said in my post... West beats Wade by a massive margin in playoff efficiency if we're taking 1 year sample, a clear margin for 2 year samples, and a large margin again in longer samples.

If wade was able to be that efficient (absurd efficiency even for 2022 standards) in a era where he didnt benefit from modern spacing and smaller front courts how much more could he do with those benefits

His scoring volume and efficiency at his best is absurd even if you judged it on modern standards

The question isn't whether Wade's a good scorer. He is, he's great.

The question is whether he's better than West.

It's great Wade is so efficient, it's great that people think he could do better today. But none of that addresses the fact that you could make the same arguments for West--West is also an all-time slasher getting an even bigger era bonus, and West is the better shooter by a ton--and both the shooting data and West's skillset support him over Wade.

You've mentioned Wade's efficiency as a point for his scoring over West's. Let's compare them:
Regular Season relative True Shooting % (relative to league average), Wade vs West
05 Wade 3.2% <<< 65 West 9.3%
06 Wade 4.2% << 66 West 8.6%
07 Wade 4.2% < 67 West 6.6%
08 Wade 0.9% <<< 68 West 9.2%
09 Wade 3.0% << 69 West 6.6%
10 Wade 1.9% <<< 70 West 6.1%

Playoff relative True Shooting %, Wade vs West
05 Wade 4.0% < 65 West 5.0%
06 Wade 7.1% < 66 West 9.1%
07 Wade -4.1% <<< 67 West N/A (6.6 regular season)
08 Wade N/A (0.9 regular season) <<< 68 West 10.0%
09 Wade 3.0% << 69 West 6.1%
10 Wade 11.6% >>> 70 West 4.6%

So... West is the more efficient scorer, often by a massive margin, in 11/12 of these cases (or 9/10 if you throw away the years one of them missed the playoffs). I mean seriously, what's the argument for Wade based on scoring efficiency?

Edit: Now, full disclosure, Wade does have the volume advantage. But Wade's volume advantage seems far smaller than West's efficiency advantage, and most impact metrics like ScoreVal support West > Wade as a scorer.

Edit: and again, the average poster (including Wade proponents) also acknowledge that West is the better defender and passer over Wade.

[falcolombardi]

No-more-rings had both Wade years over West, with one of the primary reason being that he thinks Wade's scoring would adjust better to today's 3-point-heavy league.

But Wade shot 17% from 3 in 06, a whopping 18.7% below his league average! He shot 31% from 3 in 09... which is the single best shooting year of his entire prime... and still -5% below league average back then.

I'm just using basketball reference for 3P%. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html

Edit: I see that you responded with Wade's overall efficiency. It's great that Wade's overall efficiency was so high, but like I said in my post... West beats Wade by a massive margin in playoff efficiency if we're taking 1 year sample, a clear margin for 2 year samples, and a large margin again in longer samples.

If wade was able to be that efficient (absurd efficiency even for 2022 standards) in a era where he didnt benefit from modern spacing and smaller front courts how much more could he do with those benefits

His scoring volume and efficiency at his best is absurd even if you judged it on modern standards

The question isn't whether Wade's a good scorer. He is, he's great.

The question is whether he's better than West.

It's great Wade is so efficient, it's great that people think he could do better today. But none of that addresses the fact that you could make the same arguments for West--West is also an all-time slasher getting an even bigger era bonus, and West is the better shooter by a ton--and both the shooting data and West's skillset support him over Wade.

You've mentioned Wade's efficiency as a point for his scoring. Let's compare them:
Regular Season relative True Shooting %, Wade vs West
05 Wade 3.2% <<< 65 West 9.3%
06 Wade 4.2% << 66 West 8.6%
07 Wade 4.2% < 67 West 6.6%
08 Wade 0.9% <<< 68 West 9.2%
09 Wade 3.0% << 69 West 6.6%
10 Wade 1.9% <<< 70 West 6.1%

Playoff relative True Shooting %, Wade vs West
05 Wade 4.0% < 65 West 5.0%
06 Wade 7.1% < 66 West 9.1%
07 Wade -4.1% <<< 67 West N/A (6.6 regular season)
08 Wade N/A (0.9 regular season) <<< 68 West 10.0%
09 Wade 3.0% << 69 West 6.1%
10 Wade 11.6% >>> 70 West 4.6%

I mean seriously, what's the argument for Wade based on scoring efficiency?

i honestly am voting wade as i am more familiar with his skillset beyond stats (specially for stuff like defense) but west has a really strong statistical argument

relative to their eras west is the better scorer i agree

I think my disagreement is approaching this as if west can do everythingh wade does + good shooting. When is actually not as simple

Peak Wade is a shot blocking guard with absurd rim protrection (aka any rim protection) for the position, monster offensive rebounding for a guard and has monster paint efficiency and elite impact metrics at his best

West may still have been as good of a defender in a different style, as good of a finisher inside, as good of a offensive rebounder and have even better plus-minus metrics but the data we have is more limited here, hell we dont even have west turnover data here

so i am more comfortable going with what i know even if wesr has the most impressive scoring efficiency on his side.

When data (speciallly impact metrics) is so limited i give the benefit of the doubt to the player i am more familiarized with and have much more footage watched

I dont take it for granted west is a better passer or defender although it of course is possible

[DraymondGold]

If wade was able to be that efficient (absurd efficiency even for 2022 standards) in a era where he didnt benefit from modern spacing and smaller front courts how much more could he do with those benefits

His scoring volume and efficiency at his best is absurd even if you judged it on modern standards

The question isn't whether Wade's a good scorer. He is, he's great.

The question is whether he's better than West.

It's great Wade is so efficient, it's great that people think he could do better today. But none of that addresses the fact that you could make the same arguments for West--West is also an all-time slasher getting an even bigger era bonus, and West is the better shooter by a ton--and both the shooting data and West's skillset support him over Wade.

You've mentioned Wade's efficiency as a point for his scoring. Let's compare them:
Regular Season relative True Shooting %, Wade vs West
05 Wade 3.2% <<< 65 West 9.3%
06 Wade 4.2% << 66 West 8.6%
07 Wade 4.2% < 67 West 6.6%
08 Wade 0.9% <<< 68 West 9.2%
09 Wade 3.0% << 69 West 6.6%
10 Wade 1.9% <<< 70 West 6.1%

Playoff relative True Shooting %, Wade vs West
05 Wade 4.0% < 65 West 5.0%
06 Wade 7.1% < 66 West 9.1%
07 Wade -4.1% <<< 67 West N/A (6.6 regular season)
08 Wade N/A (0.9 regular season) <<< 68 West 10.0%
09 Wade 3.0% << 69 West 6.1%
10 Wade 11.6% >>> 70 West 4.6%

I mean seriously, what's the argument for Wade based on scoring efficiency?

i honestly am voting wade as i am more familiar with his skillset beyond stats (specially for stuff like defense) but west has a really strong statistical argument

relative to their eras west is the better scorer i agree

I think my disagreement is approaching this as if west can do everythingh wade does + good shooting. When is actually not as simple

Peak Wade is a shot blocking guard with absurd rim protrection (aka any rim protection) for the position, monster offensive rebounding for a guard and has monster paint efficiency and elite impact metrics at his best

West may still have been as good of a defender in a different style, as good of a finisher inside, as good of a offensive rebounder and have even better plus-minus metrics but the data we have is more limited here, hell we dont even have west turnover data here

so i am more comfortable going with what i know even if wesr has the most impressive scoring efficiency on his side.

When data (speciallly impact metrics) is so limited i give the benefit of the doubt to the player i am more familiarized with and have much more footage watched

I dont take it for granted west is a better passer or defender although it of course is possible

that argument makes much more sense to me — thanks for taking the time to explain

I just got a bit surprised when it sounded like people are taking Wade from an efficiency standpoint or from a scoring time-machine argument, which… well, don’t really make any sense to me at all haha

It’s a pity the impact metrics are missing for West (and the film). We do have WOWY, for what it’s worth
Prime West's WOWYR: +7.4
Prime Wade's WOWYR: +2.2
… but I know some people aren’t as big on WOWY as a stat or aren’t as big comparing prime to prime for a peaks project.

[falcolombardi]

The question isn't whether Wade's a good scorer. He is, he's great.

The question is whether he's better than West.

It's great Wade is so efficient, it's great that people think he could do better today. But none of that addresses the fact that you could make the same arguments for West--West is also an all-time slasher getting an even bigger era bonus, and West is the better shooter by a ton--and both the shooting data and West's skillset support him over Wade.

You've mentioned Wade's efficiency as a point for his scoring. Let's compare them:
Regular Season relative True Shooting %, Wade vs West
05 Wade 3.2% <<< 65 West 9.3%
06 Wade 4.2% << 66 West 8.6%
07 Wade 4.2% < 67 West 6.6%
08 Wade 0.9% <<< 68 West 9.2%
09 Wade 3.0% << 69 West 6.6%
10 Wade 1.9% <<< 70 West 6.1%

Playoff relative True Shooting %, Wade vs West
05 Wade 4.0% < 65 West 5.0%
06 Wade 7.1% < 66 West 9.1%
07 Wade -4.1% <<< 67 West N/A (6.6 regular season)
08 Wade N/A (0.9 regular season) <<< 68 West 10.0%
09 Wade 3.0% << 69 West 6.1%
10 Wade 11.6% >>> 70 West 4.6%

I mean seriously, what's the argument for Wade based on scoring efficiency?

i honestly am voting wade as i am more familiar with his skillset beyond stats (specially for stuff like defense) but west has a really strong statistical argument

relative to their eras west is the better scorer i agree

I think my disagreement is approaching this as if west can do everythingh wade does + good shooting. When is actually not as simple

Peak Wade is a shot blocking guard with absurd rim protrection (aka any rim protection) for the position, monster offensive rebounding for a guard and has monster paint efficiency and elite impact metrics at his best

West may still have been as good of a defender in a different style, as good of a finisher inside, as good of a offensive rebounder and have even better plus-minus metrics but the data we have is more limited here, hell we dont even have west turnover data here

so i am more comfortable going with what i know even if wesr has the most impressive scoring efficiency on his side.

When data (speciallly impact metrics) is so limited i give the benefit of the doubt to the player i am more familiarized with and have much more footage watched

I dont take it for granted west is a better passer or defender although it of course is possible

that argument makes much more sense to me — thanks for taking the time to explain

I just got a bit surprised when it sounded like people are taking Wade from an efficiency standpoint or from a scoring time-machine argument, which… well, don’t really make any sense to me at all haha

It’s a pity the impact metrics are missing for West (and the film). We do have WOWY, for what it’s worth
Prime West's WOWYR: +7.4
Prime Wade's WOWYR: +2.2
… but I know some people aren’t as big on WOWY as a stat or aren’t as big comparing prime to prime for a peaks project.

I would be wary of wowyr for wade if it results that a lot of his sample is with lebron james playing (which i dont know if it is)

There is probably not a better player in history at making even star teammates look replaceable with how high he can raise a team floor even with co-stars missing or on the bench

[MyUniBroDavis]

The question isn't whether Wade's a good scorer. He is, he's great.

The question is whether he's better than West.

It's great Wade is so efficient, it's great that people think he could do better today. But none of that addresses the fact that you could make the same arguments for West--West is also an all-time slasher getting an even bigger era bonus, and West is the better shooter by a ton--and both the shooting data and West's skillset support him over Wade.

You've mentioned Wade's efficiency as a point for his scoring. Let's compare them:
Regular Season relative True Shooting %, Wade vs West
05 Wade 3.2% <<< 65 West 9.3%
06 Wade 4.2% << 66 West 8.6%
07 Wade 4.2% < 67 West 6.6%
08 Wade 0.9% <<< 68 West 9.2%
09 Wade 3.0% << 69 West 6.6%
10 Wade 1.9% <<< 70 West 6.1%

Playoff relative True Shooting %, Wade vs West
05 Wade 4.0% < 65 West 5.0%
06 Wade 7.1% < 66 West 9.1%
07 Wade -4.1% <<< 67 West N/A (6.6 regular season)
08 Wade N/A (0.9 regular season) <<< 68 West 10.0%
09 Wade 3.0% << 69 West 6.1%
10 Wade 11.6% >>> 70 West 4.6%

I mean seriously, what's the argument for Wade based on scoring efficiency?

i honestly am voting wade as i am more familiar with his skillset beyond stats (specially for stuff like defense) but west has a really strong statistical argument

relative to their eras west is the better scorer i agree

I think my disagreement is approaching this as if west can do everythingh wade does + good shooting. When is actually not as simple

Peak Wade is a shot blocking guard with absurd rim protrection (aka any rim protection) for the position, monster offensive rebounding for a guard and has monster paint efficiency and elite impact metrics at his best

West may still have been as good of a defender in a different style, as good of a finisher inside, as good of a offensive rebounder and have even better plus-minus metrics but the data we have is more limited here, hell we dont even have west turnover data here

so i am more comfortable going with what i know even if wesr has the most impressive scoring efficiency on his side.

When data (speciallly impact metrics) is so limited i give the benefit of the doubt to the player i am more familiarized with and have much more footage watched

I dont take it for granted west is a better passer or defender although it of course is possible

that argument makes much more sense to me — thanks for taking the time to explain

I just got a bit surprised when it sounded like people are taking Wade from an efficiency standpoint or from a scoring time-machine argument, which… well, don’t really make any sense to me at all haha

It’s a pity the impact metrics are missing for West (and the film). We do have WOWY, for what it’s worth
Prime West's WOWYR: +7.4
Prime Wade's WOWYR: +2.2
… but I know some people aren’t as big on WOWY as a stat or aren’t as big comparing prime to prime for a peaks project.

I’m confused, when we’re discussing west vs Wade we’re talking about relative to their era right? Like west is a comparable slasher for his time vs Wade for his time?

[DraymondGold]

i honestly am voting wade as i am more familiar with his skillset beyond stats (specially for stuff like defense) but west has a really strong statistical argument

relative to their eras west is the better scorer i agree

I think my disagreement is approaching this as if west can do everythingh wade does + good shooting. When is actually not as simple

Peak Wade is a shot blocking guard with absurd rim protrection (aka any rim protection) for the position, monster offensive rebounding for a guard and has monster paint efficiency and elite impact metrics at his best

West may still have been as good of a defender in a different style, as good of a finisher inside, as good of a offensive rebounder and have even better plus-minus metrics but the data we have is more limited here, hell we dont even have west turnover data here

so i am more comfortable going with what i know even if wesr has the most impressive scoring efficiency on his side.

When data (speciallly impact metrics) is so limited i give the benefit of the doubt to the player i am more familiarized with and have much more footage watched

I dont take it for granted west is a better passer or defender although it of course is possible

that argument makes much more sense to me — thanks for taking the time to explain

I just got a bit surprised when it sounded like people are taking Wade from an efficiency standpoint or from a scoring time-machine argument, which… well, don’t really make any sense to me at all haha

It’s a pity the impact metrics are missing for West (and the film). We do have WOWY, for what it’s worth
Prime West's WOWYR: +7.4
Prime Wade's WOWYR: +2.2
… but I know some people aren’t as big on WOWY as a stat or aren’t as big comparing prime to prime for a peaks project.

I’m confused, when we’re discussing west vs Wade we’re talking about relative to their era right? Like west is a comparable slasher for his time vs Wade for his time?

It was a bit of relative to era discussion and then “time machine to today” discussion.

Relative to era:
Wade might be the better slasher (though West is still great), West is the massively better shooter, West is the better overall scorer.

The question theb became how does that change today.
Others argued Wade’s driving alone is enough to make him a better overall scorer today.
I argued the fact that West is still an all-time driver among guards (going against a more packed paint and better rim protectors than Wade) plus an all-time shooter (while Wade’s far below league average for shooting) plus the better scorer in-era… should all make West the better scorer in today’s league.

[MyUniBroDavis]

that argument makes much more sense to me — thanks for taking the time to explain

I just got a bit surprised when it sounded like people are taking Wade from an efficiency standpoint or from a scoring time-machine argument, which… well, don’t really make any sense to me at all haha

It’s a pity the impact metrics are missing for West (and the film). We do have WOWY, for what it’s worth
Prime West's WOWYR: +7.4
Prime Wade's WOWYR: +2.2
… but I know some people aren’t as big on WOWY as a stat or aren’t as big comparing prime to prime for a peaks project.

I’m confused, when we’re discussing west vs Wade we’re talking about relative to their era right? Like west is a comparable slasher for his time vs Wade for his time?

It was a bit of relative to era discussion and then “time machine to today” discussion.

Relative to era:
Wade might be the better slasher (though West is still great), West is the massively better shooter, West is the better overall scorer.

The question theb became how does that change today.
Others argued Wade’s driving alone is enough to make him a better overall scorer today.
I argued the fact that West is still an all-time driver among guards (going against a more packed paint and better rim protectors than Wade) plus an all-time shooter (while Wade’s far below league average for shooting) plus the better scorer in-era… should all make West the better scorer in today’s league.

Time travel I think implies either

How good they are in an absolute sense

How good they are relative to everyone else

I think someone that’s west to the nba when Wade played is better all around than Wade, I don’t think west translated to today is particularly close to that though, although that’s nothing we can say definitively

[70sFan]

I think people confuse West's defensive style with someone like Walt Frazier. West wasn't a lockdown 1on1 defender. Of course he was capable of shutting down his matchups, but that wasn't his style. West gave you the most as a help defender and in big part because of his shotblocking ability. I don't really know if Wade has that massive advantage as a rim protector over West, I think it's reasonably close. West was far superior in other help defense situations though, at least from what I've seen.

I think West was an elite slasher, but not on Wade's level. This is compensated by the massive shooting advantage though. The difference is bigger in that regard and although Wade was amazing, I don't see any reason to pick him ahead of West... unless you want to criticize him for era (that was the worst possible for a player like him, mind you). He's significantly better scorer and shooter, he scaled better with ball-dominant teammates, he's likely a better defender and at very least comparable creator. I'm very high on Wade, but not that high.

[LA Bird]

There were 16 voters in this round: AEnigma, CharityStripe34, Dutchball97, falcolombardi, Samurai, capfan33, ardee, iggymcfrack, f4p, trelos6, trex_8063, ceoofkobefans, SickMother, 70sFan, DraymondGold, Proxy

A total of 31 seasons received at least 1 vote: 06 Bryant, 06 Wade, 08 Bryant, 09 Wade, 10 Wade, 11 Nowitzki, 17 Leonard, 19 Leonard, 20 Davis, 21 Jokic, 22 Jokic, 50 Mikan, 51 Mikan, 58 Pettit, 59 Pettit, 62 Pettit, 65 West, 66 West, 68 Hawkins, 68 West, 69 West, 70 West, 76 Erving, 77 Walton, 79 Malone, 82 Malone, 83 Malone, 93 Barkley, 94 Robinson, 95 Robinson, 96 Robinson

Top 5 seasons
66 West: 1.000 (28-0)
77 Walton: 0.967 (29-1), loses to 66 West
06 Wade: 0.966 (28-1), loses to 77 Walton
09 Wade: 0.929 (26-2), loses to 06 Wade, 77 Walton
94 Robinson: 0.862 (25-4), loses to 06 Wade, 09 Wade, 66 West, 77 Walton

H2H record
66 West vs 77 Walton: 6-5
66 West vs 06 Wade: 6-6
66 West vs 09 Wade: 6-6
66 West vs 94 Robinson: 6-2
77 Walton vs 06 Wade: 6-3
77 Walton vs 09 Wade: 6-3
77 Walton vs 94 Robinson: 5-4
06 Wade vs 09 Wade: 4-3
06 Wade vs 94 Robinson: 6-5
09 Wade vs 94 Robinson: 6-5

Tiebreaker
SickMother: Wade > West > Walton
DraymondGold: West* > Walton > Wade
trelos6: West* > Wade > Walton
trex_8063: Walton* > West > Wade
No-more-rings: Wade > West > Walton

West vs Wade: 6-6 + 1-2 = 7-8 (Wade beats West)
West vs Walton: 6-5 + 2-0 = 7-5 (West beats Walton)
Walton vs Wade: 6-3 + 1-3 = 7-6 (Walton beats Wade)

There is a circular tie at the end of the runoff so we go into the final tiebreaker by timestamp. However, since the votes were spread so evenly, the last time there was a clear winner in this round was actually after the third vote. Technically, this would make 06 Wade the winner by a 2-1 margin but I don't think it makes much sense to choose the winner based on only 3 out of the 17 votes. So I'll keep this round open for another 24 hours to hopefully get a clear winner. If it's still a tie at that point, the winner will be whoever had the highest win rate as at the end of the round (66 West).

Edit: 66 West received the only vote in the extended runoff so he is the winner of the round. In the future, the runoff will be limited to only the leading season by win rate and seasons that it is tied with directly.

[No-more-rings]

Wait... so you think the vastly superior shooter (by your own admission) would translate worse to this era as a scorer than the drastically worse shooter? To this era, the one that relies so much on shooting? I... don't really get the thinking. 06 Wade was literally a 17.1% 3 point shooter, and you see that adjusting better to the modern era? By 2009, he was all the way up to 31.7%, still -5.0% below league average.

Well most stars playing today are better shooters sometimes way better than Wade, that doesn't mean they're better players necessarily.

You mention Wade's athleticism, which is a good point! But I really can't see the argument that he's such a better slasher than West by a wide enough margin. West is commonly considered one of the greatest guard slashers ever. If we use free throw rate as a proxy for how much they drove to the rim (poor proxy but both players got most of their fouls drawn on driving attempts), West has 6 playoffs with 10+ FTA/100 to Wade's 7. Slight advantage Wade but nothing major, and certainly not as extreme as the shooting difference.

I don't know what to make of the numbers in a vacuum, but I'd recommend going and re-watching games where Wade was in attack mode. There was really nothing keeping him from getting to the basket if that's what he wanted to do. There's no way we can properly compare free throw rates from that fat apart. It's obvious Wade's slashing is a different level.

You mention modern defenses making it harder for West's driving ability, but West was slashing into a far more packed paint without the spacing that Wade had in the 2000s. More than that, he faced Bill Russell, a GOAT-level rim protector, 6 times in the NBA finals. I don't see Wade facing anything close to that level of defensive opposition on drives,

I'm not really sure what spacing you're talking about. Wade's teams prior to 2012 were some of the worst as far as spacing. If you say it's still more than West, I guess so. West might've faced a more packed paint, but there's no question he had it easier on the perimeter.

When you admit West is the better defender too (to say nothing of the better passer), I'm just a bit confused on the reasoning for Wade.

I said he maybe is. I'm not conceding that when there isn't enough evidence.

West isn't an easy comparison for more modern players, so I'm not just going to pretend that it is. West dominated for this time just like we expect from people like him, but lets not pretend that perimeter defenders weren't slower weaker and less athletic back then. This isn't me trying to poop on 60s players by any stretch, but at some point we have to get serious about how we evaluate players from back then.

Bill Russell being under the rim is fair, but let's not pretend that Wade didn't go against paints patrolled by Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Dwight Howard, The Wallaces, etc. It's just a weird argument to make. There's 5 players on defense, not just 1.

I think both guys would do great today, though I'd be slightly more cautious on West. For him to be in consideration for best player in the league, I think he'd have to develop a 3 at Harden or Dame type level. Do you think that that's just a given? I really don't even though he'd certainly develop one.

I think you're making a mistake to just assume that West is a much better shooter, and comparable in all other areas therefore he's better. Physically there is certainly an advantage for Wade. I'm not going to post links, just go to YouTube and compare highlights between West and Wade in like 06 or 09. There is no comparison athletically. Wade was much more explosive and could do many things West couldn't in regard to splitting defenses and finishing up and around multiple defenders. West could do those things, just not on the same level as Wade.

I have a lot of respect for West's talent, but again I'm not just assuming that he'd be clearly better than Wade today because his shooting was at a different level.

[Ron Swanson]

'66 West would be my vote. Too lazy to copy/paste my reasoning from the last thread.

[AEnigma]

In one sense, fitting if West holds on and slots right next to Oscar.

I do think it is funny how, reading through past projects, there was always a lot of consternation over that 1976/77 cluster of Kareem, Walton, and Erving. Rarely the same for this 1964-67 cluster of Wilt, Russell, Oscar, and West. In this project, there has been some commentary on the 1987-94 cluster and the 2000-2004 cluster — and more broadly than that, what the implications are in identifying seven of the top twelve peaks in league history as belonging to that particular eighteen year range (i.e. before the pre-2005 rule changes). Many have also been strongly pushing for Robinson, as early as around 10 or 11 if memory serves (and in 2015, he made the top twelve). Potentially could have been eight of the top fifteen had a couple of votes seen a marginal difference, and it will almost certainly be something like eight of the top eighteen from that range — with names like McGrady, Ewing, Barkley, Malone, Mourning, Penny, Hill, Isiah, Payton, and Reggie all potentially joining their ranks (although those latter options have never made it before or even been all that close).

We have three peaks since those rule changes (the modern-ish game, if you will). Some feel Curry was short-changed (possible), but a lot of those same voters seem to feel Giannis came in too early (in which case we may well only have two since 2004). Perhaps that evens out. There are certainly options for names to add. Wade, Kobe, Kawhi, Davis, Jokic, Durant, Dirk, Chris Paul, Nash, Howard, Harden, Doncic, Westbrook… Draymond I think could see some support… possibly Deron Williams, Paul George, Manu (although all would be firsts). This era will get their representation too — but apparently just not to the same strength as the more nostalgic superstars preceding those rule changes.

Now, perhaps this is the consequence of a more balanced league. Those earlier players simply stood out more, and indeed that is what I think drives the infatuation with that 1964-67 cluster and perhaps drove that 1976/77 trio too.

But then… why does that stop? 1968-1985 has one player. Walton will probably get in soonish. Two players. Erving and Moses are seeing fringe support. Say they both make the top twenty. What then? Did names like Barry, Reed, or Frazier not stand out in their time (to say nothing of the non-title winners)? Some people have referred to 1970 West as a potential peak option here — is Frazier really all that far behind? In my eyes, Marques Johnson in his prime was basically the same level as 1980-83 Erving, and although those Erving years would certainly never be in discussions for a potential top fifteen peak as they consistently have been up until this project, I feel moderately confident they would at least get mentioned in that 30-40 range in a way we never saw with Marques. Or take Barry — I agree Erving was a step above at his peak, but from 1974-77, was he really so much better for to justify what has typically been a twenty spot difference?

Now, I have stated my personal concerns with Erving, and alluded to them with Moses… but those personal concerns similarly apply to Oscar and West! West has a “modern shooting form” which I guess just grants him a strong 3, with zero accompanying concern for how he would maintain his in-era athletic advantage beyond that. I do not really care for the full-on modernist approach wherein West would go below guys like Lillard simply by virtue of Lillard being a modern superstar (not saying anyone is doing that explicitly), but at least there is an immediately coherent approach to that, versus talking about West’s in-era defensive excellence and relative efficiency and relative level of playmaking… and then immediately moving past Erving and Moses because well do they really translate? Was Frazier relatively dominant enough? Did we have of enough of a sample size of how he played West to judge that, or is it just noise?

Again, if people want to focus on era dominance, fair play, but I am not sure many people really are. Assumed translation across eras seems to be much more the common approach, but in that case, there should be some actual reckoning with how West physically compares with a guy like Kobe rather than reverting back to an era relative approach we all can see is not really being followed in other circumstances. And if “scalability” is the true equaliser of all things, then I am really curious to see when and where Manu and Reggie and Ray come into play.

Like, West for me makes a lot more sense as a Manu analogue than as a Wade or Kobe one. And hey, on/off and RAPM and per possession adjustments all adore Manu to an extent well beyond those two…

[falcolombardi]

In one sense, fitting if West holds on and slots right next to Oscar.

I do think it is funny how, reading through past projects, there was always a lot of consternation over that 1976/77 cluster of Kareem, Walton, and Erving. Rarely the same for this 1964-67 cluster of Wilt, Russell, Oscar, and West. In this project, there has been some commentary on the 1987-94 cluster and the 2000-2004 cluster — and more broadly than that, what the implications are in identifying seven of the top twelve peaks in league history as belonging to that particular eighteen year range (i.e. before the pre-2005 rule changes). Many have also been strongly pushing for Robinson, as early as around 10 or 11 if memory serves (and in 2015, he made the top twelve). Potentially could have been eight of the top fifteen had a couple of votes seen a marginal difference, and it will almost certainly be something like eight of the top eighteen from that range — with names like McGrady, Ewing, Barkley, Malone, Mourning, Penny, Hill, Isiah, Payton, and Reggie all potentially joining their ranks (although those latter options have never made it before or even been all that close).

We have three peaks since those rule changes (the modern-ish game, if you will). Some feel Curry was short-changed (possible), but a lot of those same voters seem to feel Giannis came in too early (in which case we may well only have two since 2004). Perhaps that evens out. There are certainly options for names to add. Wade, Kobe, Kawhi, Davis, Jokic, Durant, Dirk, Chris Paul, Nash, Howard, Harden, Doncic, Westbrook… Draymond I think could see some support… possibly Deron Williams, Paul George, Manu (although all would be firsts). This era will get their representation too — but apparently just not to the same strength as the more nostalgic superstars preceding those rule changes.

Now, perhaps this is the consequence of a more balanced league. Those earlier players simply stood out more, and indeed that is what I think drives the infatuation with that 1964-67 cluster and perhaps drove that 1976/77 trio too.

But then… why does that stop? 1968-1985 has one player. Walton will probably get in soonish. Two players. Erving and Moses are seeing fringe support. Say they both make the top twenty. What then? Did names like Barry, Reed, or Frazier not stand out in their time (to say nothing of the non-title winners)? Some people have referred to 1970 West as a potential peak option here — is Frazier really all that far behind? In my eyes, Marques Johnson in his prime was basically the same level as 1980-83 Erving, and although those Erving years would certainly never be in discussions for a potential top fifteen peak as they consistently have been up until this project, I feel moderately confident they would at least get mentioned in that 30-40 range in a way we never saw with Marques. Or take Barry — I agree Erving was a step above at his peak, but from 1974-77, was he really so much better for to justify what has typically been a twenty spot difference?

Now, I have stated my personal concerns with Erving, and alluded to them with Moses… but those personal concerns similarly apply to Oscar and West! West has a “modern shooting form” which I guess just grants him a strong 3, with zero accompanying concern for how he would maintain his in-era athletic advantage beyond that. I do not really care for the full-on modernist approach wherein West would go below guys like Lillard simply by virtue of Lillard being a modern superstar (not saying anyone is doing that explicitly), but at least there is an immediately coherent approach to that, versus talking about West’s in-era defensive excellence and relative efficiency and relative level of playmaking… and then immediately moving past Erving and Moses because well do they really translate? Was Frazier relatively dominant enough? Did we have of enough of a sample size of how he played West to judge that, or is it just noise?

Again, if people want to focus on era dominance, fair play, but I am not sure many people really are. Assumed translation across eras seems to be much more the common approach, but in that case, there should be some actual reckoning with how West physically compares with a guy like Kobe rather than reverting back to an era relative approach we all can see is not really being followed in other circumstances. And if “scalability” is the true equaliser of all things, then I am really curious to see when and where Manu and Reggie and Ray come into play.

Like, West for me makes a lot more sense as a Manu analogue than as a Wade or Kobe one. And hey, on/off and RAPM and per possession adjustments all adore Manu to an extent well beyond those two…

West scoring volume and overall minutes stand out in comparision to manu

But manu is also a legit top 50-40 peak contender so is not a damning thingh to be similar to him but more impressive in some key aspects

I think what you point out is interesting cause there is a great chance that players like jokic and giannis have not peaked yet or their peaks will be revalorized once the dust settles

I have always thought that the sweer spot for a player is when he is retired long enough for nostalgia but not enough to be forgotten or diminished for era

Beint a currently active player who still has not won a ring is the second worst spot imo only second to being really old player

Modern players are like 25 and get judged for their playoffs "failures" as if they just dont have it and never will be able to win, just look at giannis narratives before 2021 title

[DraymondGold]

Hi No-more-rings, thanks for the reply!

Wait... so you think the vastly superior shooter (by your own admission) would translate worse to this era as a scorer than the drastically worse shooter? To this era, the one that relies so much on shooting? I... don't really get the thinking. 06 Wade was literally a 17.1% 3 point shooter, and you see that adjusting better to the modern era? By 2009, he was all the way up to 31.7%, still -5.0% below league average.

Well most stars playing today are better shooters sometimes way better than Wade, that doesn't mean they're better players necessarily.

It's true that you do not need a 3-point shot to be a good scorer. But you're talking about how well players adjust to today's scoring, and I can't see having that poor 3 point shooting being a good thing. 2006 was Wade's worst 3 point shooting year (while 2009 was his best). If we take a larger 6-year average (05-10) to make a more stable shooting sample size, peak Wade shot 28.6% from 3 Point range, which is -7.3% below league average of 35.9& back then, on putrid volume.

If we look at the top 10 players in the league (using Thinking Basketball's list as a baseline),
2021: Wade would be the single worst 3 point shooter in the top 10 (only beating out Gobert at 11th). His shooting relative to his league is even worse than Giannis.
2020: Wade would be the second-worst 3 point shooter of the top 10, only beating Jimmy Butler.
2019: Wade would be the second-worst 3 point shooter of the top 10, only beating Giannis.

So while it's true that top 10 players can be this bad at 3 point shooting, it's pretty clear that this shooting would dent your value in this era. Even if you think he'd overall improve from his driving advantage, this shooting would have to limit how much he'd improve in this era. And again, Wade would be going against an all-decade level shooter in West.

You mention Wade's athleticism, which is a good point! But I really can't see the argument that he's such a better slasher than West by a wide enough margin. West is commonly considered one of the greatest guard slashers ever. If we use free throw rate as a proxy for how much they drove to the rim (poor proxy but both players got most of their fouls drawn on driving attempts), West has 6 playoffs with 10+ FTA/100 to Wade's 7. Slight advantage Wade but nothing major, and certainly not as extreme as the shooting difference.

I don't know what to make of the numbers in a vacuum, but I'd recommend going and re-watching games where Wade was in attack mode. There was really nothing keeping him from getting to the basket if that's what he wanted to do. There's no way we can properly compare free throw rates from that fat apart. It's obvious Wade's slashing is a different level.

Even if Wade's the superior driver, I don't think it's obviously such a different level, but it seems we may just disagree here. I guess it depends on how big the gaps are between levels,

You mention modern defenses making it harder for West's driving ability, but West was slashing into a far more packed paint without the spacing that Wade had in the 2000s. More than that, he faced Bill Russell, a GOAT-level rim protector, 6 times in the NBA finals. I don't see Wade facing anything close to that level of defensive opposition on drives,

I'm not really sure what spacing you're talking about. Wade's teams prior to 2012 were some of the worst as far as spacing. If you say it's still more than West, I guess so. West might've faced a more packed paint, but there's no question he had it easier on the perimeter.

Yep, I was talking about Wade having far better spacing than West, but you're right Wade didn't have great spacing relative to his league average. I wonder whether part of the reason Wade was facing such a packed paint was that his defender could sag so far off him... Even if not, that would certainly by the case today. While West's shooting would make it easier for him to drive, Wade's shooting would make it harder for him.

When you admit West is the better defender too (to say nothing of the better passer), I'm just a bit confused on the reasoning for Wade.

I said he maybe is. I'm not conceding that when there isn't enough evidence.

West isn't an easy comparison for more modern players, so I'm not just going to pretend that it is. West dominated for this time just like we expect from people like him, but lets not pretend that perimeter defenders weren't slower weaker and less athletic back then. This isn't me trying to poop on 60s players by any stretch, but at some point we have to get serious about how we evaluate players from back then.

If you're worried about a lack of speed and athleticism back then, wouldn't West also be getting an athleticism boost by playing today?

West once said that nobody to his knowledge trained year-round. Not one. Today, a player of West's caliber would be training year round, with personal trainers, modern weight-training regiments, often even personal chefs, and plenty of access to protein powder/sports supplements/sports "supplements" ( ). How much more athletic would West seem with these benefits?

Access to good sports tools was worse back then. Rather than playing in "Chuck Taylor" shoes, West would be playing in top-of-the-line Nike's. Many top players even get a new pair of shoes every game. How much quicker could West be in better shoes?

As late as the 1940s (when West was growing up), you can see even the balls used in professional basketball games were lopsided/uneven. The modern form of jumpshot was far less ubiquitous, with far greater variety in shooting forms. How much better of a shooter would West be today?

Sports medicine has improved exponentially. As a player who was often struggling with health, how much healthier would West be today?

Players back then played massive minutes, with superstars prioritizing these large minutes over per-possession value. With West playing fewer minutes, wouldn't West get to exert a higher motor per possession?

Similarly, wouldn't the addition of far more relaxed dribbling rules, far better spacing, and even the existence of a 3 point line benefit West more than the relative rule changes from 2006 to 2022 would benefit Wade?

Bill Russell being under the rim is fair, but let's not pretend that Wade didn't go against paints patrolled by Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Dwight Howard, The Wallaces, etc. It's just a weird argument to make. There's 5 players on defense, not just 1.

We were discussing how difficult it was to get to the rim.

I have Bill Russell as the GOAT defender and a GOAT-level rim protector. I have Nate Thurmond as the GOAT rim protector. From 65-69,
Jerry West played over 60% of his playoff games against the GOAT defender and the GOAT rim protector. That seems significantly worse than Wade, at least to me.

This says nothing of the fact that the other 5 defenders were overall more packed together in the 60s vs the 00s, again making it harder for West to drive.

I think both guys would do great today, though I'd be slightly more cautious on West. For him to be in consideration for best player in the league, I think he'd have to develop a 3 at Harden or Dame type level. Do you think that that's just a given? I really don't even though he'd certainly develop one.

From 65-69, Jerry West shot +11.6% FT% better than league average. That's better than peak James Harden and just below Dame. Nothing about West's form or West's range looks like it couldn't translate to this era. And West is commonly touted as the greatest shooter of that entire decade.

And that's without training year round, without modern trainers or shooting coaches, without nearly as good basketballs to practice with growing up, without the ubiquity of the modern jump shot form which gets taught to kids far younger, without a 3 point line. And West's jumpshot was famously resilient, with a high enough release point that I don't think the modern defender would suddenly
So... yeah, I guess I do think it's a given that he'd become a Harden/Dame-level shooter at least

I think you're making a mistake to just assume that West is a much better shooter, and comparable in all other areas therefore he's better. Physically there is certainly an advantage for Wade. I'm not going to post links, just go to YouTube and compare highlights between West and Wade in like 06 or 09. There is no comparison athletically. Wade was much more explosive and could do many things West couldn't in regard to splitting defenses and finishing up and around multiple defenders. West could do those things, just not on the same level as Wade.

I have a lot of respect for West's talent, but again I'm not just assuming that he'd be clearly better than Wade today because his shooting was at a different level.

[/quote] Hmm, It seems like we just disagree. It looks like West was voted in so there probably won't be that much more talk. Regardless, I enjoyed the conversation!


For those interested, I found some film from the 1966 finals with West:

Watch on YouTube

[iggymcfrack]

Decided to switch my 3rd place vote.

1. 2021/22 Nikola Jokic- Best regular season ever by PER and BPM, 5th best postseason ever by PER with impact numbers that dominate the competition much more than the box score metrics. Incredible playmaking as Jokic combines the best passing from a big man ever with a surprisingly low amount of time holding the ball for such an offensive hub. He also has the highest RAPTOR since that started being tracked in 2013/14.

2. 1995/96 David Robinson- Led the league in PER in both the regular season AND postseason while anchoring the 3rd best defense in the league. Early impact metrics had him neck and neck with Michael Jordan for best player in the league. When Robinson missed the vast majority of the following season, the Spurs defense went from 3rd/29 to 29th/29. They were 9 points worse per 100 possessions. The following season when he returned, the defense improved 13 points per 100 possessions. His defensive impact vastly outpaced his box score value and you can argue that at this point in his career, he was right there with anyone else in the history of the league for most valuable defensive players. I have a hard time believing that Bill Russell ever peaked higher than David Robinson for instance since Robinson had such a strong offensive game while providing at least 95% of the same value on defense.

3. 2016/2017 Kawhi Leonard- Yes he suffered a season ending injury in the playoffs, but it was on a dirty play that could have happened to anyone and prior to that, he hadn’t been injury prone at all. In the playoffs that year, Kawhi had a 31.5 PER on .672 TS%. He had .314 WS/48 and a 14.2 BPM. All of those are all-time numbers. What’s even more impressive though is he did all that WITH some of the best wing defense of all-time. He won DPOY in 2015 and 2016 and absolutely played at that same elite level in the playoffs. He had a playoff on/off of +22.3 and led the Spurs to a huge lead over the best team of all-time in Game 1 against the Warriors in a series where they would ultimately get swept after he got hurt.