Current State of Donovan

[UnbelievablyRAW]

I think it could be something to look at if we included say Lakers in on this. Send Trent and Thad along with Conley to Lakers for 2 picks. Costs you guys the same but gets us 2 more 1st round picks.

Toronto in: Mitchell
Lakers in: Trent, That, Conley
Utah in: Westbrook, Chi 21, Orl protected 23, Raptors unprotected 23, 25, 27; Raptors 24 Swap, Lakers 2 1st round picks

Agreed on the framework. If the Raptors are expected to add that many unprotected picks then I’d hope we’d get another bench piece (Beasley?) back ad well. If not, the 25 and 27th picks are coming with probably top 4-5 and top 10 protections. It’s 7 picks and a swap, more than you’d get anywhere else

There is 0 chance the raptors give up Gary AND Anunoby AND picks. Literallly 0 chance

One of them has to be traded unless Masai thinks extending both and then Scottie and locking up our 5 to maxes (or near it) is the path to championship contention. Mitchell is 25 years old and lead the Jazz to a #1 offensive rating last year and the 3rd best rating in the year prior. Adding him to the roster relieves pressure on Pascal and adds another ball handler that is also one of the best perimeter scorers in the NBA

He had 52% of his 3PT makes unassisted last season (98th percentile among combo guards, per Cleaning the Glass); hit the 4th most pull-up 3’s in the NBA; has shot 40% or better on catch and shoot 3’s every year but last season (outlier?); shot 65% at the rim with 80% of the makes unassisted (compared to OG at 71% at the rim but with 56% of the makes assisted), and in total had 71% of his makes unassisted last year. All with a 57% TS which was better than any Pascal season since he became the man in Toronto.

It seems like an overpay given the package is what would be offered for Durant, but the upside with Mitchell is his age and the longer title window with him still having room to grow himself versus the only to decline KD

[dr0welf]

If we kept Donovan as one of the 3 stars we build around, what would you need in your other 2 stars to make it work? And who are those players that ideally we would want to look at? Not saying this is the way the Jazz want to go, but it is an option still. And if this option is what they decide on how far away are we from making it work?

[Gert42]

I think the Jazz are miles away from making it work under that scenario.

Keeping Donovan is probably at least somewhere between 5-7 wins alone from what the team would be without him. I also think the combination of older veterans who really didn't do great with two All-Stars around them and probably the worst youth 24 and under in the league, I think it would be near impossible for the Jazz to get a team that could win a playoff series within the next three years.

I think the Minnesota picks could obviously yield some return, but it would probably not be great because they are someone else's and not ours. Plus we have to wait for the 2024 Thunder pick to clear up as well.

I think the most difficult way to get to 3 guys with this team is I think you could get a 2nd right now, but you would have to give up all of your assets (current roster talent + future picks) and then I think it would be impossible to then get a 3rd.

[dr0welf]

If you were going to build a team around Donovan what 2 pieces do you think would work with his playset to build a contender?

[babyjax13]

If you were going to build a team around Donovan what 2 pieces do you think would work with his playset to build a contender?

I'd want an elite, switchable wing defender who can score a bit (Mikal Bridges) and a two-way player at any other position who can score efficiently at volume (Anthony Davis). I think you need a top 15 player with Mitchell to be a contender. Someone who is about as good or better than him.

[ForeverRDjazz]

Nobody talking about the trade? Man this place is dead.

[Rauxcee]

Nobody talking about the trade? Man this place is dead.

What trade?

[Gert42]

So here's an question I would pose to Jazz fans; what's the minimum you would settle for in a trade for DM?

I think I would accept:

Evan Fouriner
Quentin Grimes
Obi Toppin

2023 NYK unprotected
2025 NYK unprotected
2027 NYK unprotected

2023 DET FRP; Detroit's 1st round pick to New York protected for selections 1-18 in 2023, 1-18 in 2024, 1-13 in 2025, 1-11 in 2026 and 1-9 in 2027; if Detroit has not conveyed a 1st round pick to New York by 2027, then Detroit will instead convey its 2027 2nd round pick to New York

This way they get a couple fliers on prospects; Toppin and Vanderbilt are opposite types of players so I don't hate just throwing both out at different times and seeing what happens. They get a 4th pick in next years draft and then should have one in 2025 if their pick is going to OKC by then. I also think Detroit's is much more likely to convey than Washington's.

And as always, if we really do want to trade DM, our best asset will then be staring at us in the mirror.

[Catchall]

So here's an question I would pose to Jazz fans; what's the minimum you would settle for in a trade for DM?

I think I would accept:

Evan Fouriner
Quentin Grimes
Obi Toppin

2023 NYK unprotected
2025 NYK unprotected
2027 NYK unprotected

2023 DET FRP; Detroit's 1st round pick to New York protected for selections 1-18 in 2023, 1-18 in 2024, 1-13 in 2025, 1-11 in 2026 and 1-9 in 2027; if Detroit has not conveyed a 1st round pick to New York by 2027, then Detroit will instead convey its 2027 2nd round pick to New York

This way they get a couple fliers on prospects; Toppin and Vanderbilt are opposite types of players so I don't hate just throwing both out at different times and seeing what happens. They get a 4th pick in next years draft and then should have one in 2025 if their pick is going to OKC by then. I also think Detroit's is much more likely to convey than Washington's.

And as always, if we really do want to trade DM, our best asset will then be staring at us in the mirror.

Add a pick swap in 2026, and I think I'd do that.

[Hoppy1]

If you were going to build a team around Donovan what 2 pieces do you think would work with his playset to build a contender?

You need the one position Utah has been lacking, a SF that can play. Not just a shooter, but a player.
The second position is a defensive minded rebounder who can guard on the floor.

[SoCalJazzFan]

So here's an question I would pose to Jazz fans; what's the minimum you would settle for in a trade for DM?

I think I would accept:

Evan Fouriner
Quentin Grimes
Obi Toppin

2023 NYK unprotected
2025 NYK unprotected
2027 NYK unprotected

2023 DET FRP; Detroit's 1st round pick to New York protected for selections 1-18 in 2023, 1-18 in 2024, 1-13 in 2025, 1-11 in 2026 and 1-9 in 2027; if Detroit has not conveyed a 1st round pick to New York by 2027, then Detroit will instead convey its 2027 2nd round pick to New York

This way they get a couple fliers on prospects; Toppin and Vanderbilt are opposite types of players so I don't hate just throwing both out at different times and seeing what happens. They get a 4th pick in next years draft and then should have one in 2025 if their pick is going to OKC by then. I also think Detroit's is much more likely to convey than Washington's.

And as always, if we really do want to trade DM, our best asset will then be staring at us in the mirror.

Add a pick swap in 2026, and I think I'd do that.

Jazz already have a pick swap in 2026 with the TWolves.

I would add IQ (NY shouldn't care as he won't get much playing time) and Wizards pick and I would do it. 3 unprotected picks, 2 protected picks and 3 young players on par with the 8 FRPs DA has reportedly asked for.

[Sweet Meat Lew]

So here's an question I would pose to Jazz fans; what's the minimum you would settle for in a trade for DM?

I think I would accept:

Evan Fouriner
Quentin Grimes
Obi Toppin

2023 NYK unprotected
2025 NYK unprotected
2027 NYK unprotected

2023 DET FRP; Detroit's 1st round pick to New York protected for selections 1-18 in 2023, 1-18 in 2024, 1-13 in 2025, 1-11 in 2026 and 1-9 in 2027; if Detroit has not conveyed a 1st round pick to New York by 2027, then Detroit will instead convey its 2027 2nd round pick to New York

This way they get a couple fliers on prospects; Toppin and Vanderbilt are opposite types of players so I don't hate just throwing both out at different times and seeing what happens. They get a 4th pick in next years draft and then should have one in 2025 if their pick is going to OKC by then. I also think Detroit's is much more likely to convey than Washington's.

And as always, if we really do want to trade DM, our best asset will then be staring at us in the mirror.

Add a pick swap in 2026, and I think I'd do that.

Jazz already have a pick swap in 2026 with the TWolves.

I would add IQ (NY shouldn't care as he won't get much playing time) and Wizards pick and I would do it. 3 unprotected picks, 2 protected picks and 3 young players on par with the 8 FRPs DA has reportedly asked for.

Exactly who do you think DM is? This is a delusional ask. That's a package that I'd only pay for a prime Giannis/Lebron/Curry type. Adding DM doesn't get them anywhere near contending so why would they sell the farm for a one way chucker as if the Melo trade never happened. Q Grimes / Obi have high ceilings. Grimes is probably the in house solution that they need and the longer Utah slow rolls it, the better the chance the Knicks figure it out. Take Herro, Jovic and 3 firsts and filler and tank away. DM makes a ton more sense for MIA but the league won't overpay just because Minny did.

[AingesBurner]

Add a pick swap in 2026, and I think I'd do that.

Jazz already have a pick swap in 2026 with the TWolves.

I would add IQ (NY shouldn't care as he won't get much playing time) and Wizards pick and I would do it. 3 unprotected picks, 2 protected picks and 3 young players on par with the 8 FRPs DA has reportedly asked for.

Exactly who do you think DM is? This is a delusional ask. That's a package that I'd only pay for a prime Giannis/Lebron/Curry type. Adding DM doesn't get them anywhere near contending so why would they sell the farm for a one way chucker as if the Melo trade never happened. Q Grimes / Obi have high ceilings. Grimes is probably the in house solution that they need and the longer Utah slow rolls it, the better the chance the Knicks figure it out. Take Herro, Jovic and 3 firsts and filler and tank away. DM makes a ton more sense for MIA but the league won't overpay just because Minny did.

Heat fan has entered the chat

[Gert42]

Add a pick swap in 2026, and I think I'd do that.

Jazz already have a pick swap in 2026 with the TWolves.

I would add IQ (NY shouldn't care as he won't get much playing time) and Wizards pick and I would do it. 3 unprotected picks, 2 protected picks and 3 young players on par with the 8 FRPs DA has reportedly asked for.

Exactly who do you think DM is? This is a delusional ask. That's a package that I'd only pay for a prime Giannis/Lebron/Curry type. Adding DM doesn't get them anywhere near contending so why would they sell the farm for a one way chucker as if the Melo trade never happened. Q Grimes / Obi have high ceilings. Grimes is probably the in house solution that they need and the longer Utah slow rolls it, the better the chance the Knicks figure it out. Take Herro, Jovic and 3 firsts and filler and tank away. DM makes a ton more sense for MIA but the league won't overpay just because Minny did.

We’ll see. What do you consider high ceilings for Grimes and Toppin? League average starters? I think these teams are fascinating trade partners because I agree that Knicks don’t need to do this trade after they got Brunson, but there’s a pretty good chance that this door closes and another All-Star player won’t be there for the Knicks.

[babyjax13]

Add a pick swap in 2026, and I think I'd do that.

Jazz already have a pick swap in 2026 with the TWolves.

I would add IQ (NY shouldn't care as he won't get much playing time) and Wizards pick and I would do it. 3 unprotected picks, 2 protected picks and 3 young players on par with the 8 FRPs DA has reportedly asked for.

Exactly who do you think DM is? This is a delusional ask. That's a package that I'd only pay for a prime Giannis/Lebron/Curry type. Adding DM doesn't get them anywhere near contending so why would they sell the farm for a one way chucker as if the Melo trade never happened. Q Grimes / Obi have high ceilings. Grimes is probably the in house solution that they need and the longer Utah slow rolls it, the better the chance the Knicks figure it out. Take Herro, Jovic and 3 firsts and filler and tank away. DM makes a ton more sense for MIA but the league won't overpay just because Minny did.

Donovan is a top 20 player locked up for several years. New York might decide to walk but they aren't the only fish in the sea.

[Inigo Montoya]

Exactly who do you think DM is? This is a delusional ask. That's a package that I'd only pay for a prime Giannis/Lebron/Curry type. Adding DM doesn't get them anywhere near contending so why would they sell the farm for a one way chucker as if the Melo trade never happened. Q Grimes / Obi have high ceilings. Grimes is probably the in house solution that they need and the longer Utah slow rolls it, the better the chance the Knicks figure it out. Take Herro, Jovic and 3 firsts and filler and tank away. DM makes a ton more sense for MIA but the league won't overpay just because Minny did.

FWIW, I think the price Ainge is asking for Mitchell is absurd, but the Gobert trade changed things because what he managed to get for him was also an absurd return, and it set the price for the entire market, hence the asking price for Mitchell and why the entire league essentially stopped making trades once that deal happened, and why Durant is still in Brooklyn (because based on the return the Jazz got for Gobert, Durant should fetch double, which is a price no team can pay).

Having said that, I have to disagree about the assessment of players like Grimes, Toppin, Quickley, etc. None of them have high ceilings imho. None of them are going to be stars or allstars, their ceiling is a starting-caliber player on a good team.

Personally, I'm not that high on any Knick player, other than Grimes who does look interesting and looks like he could develop into a solid starter, but no more than that. And the Jazz have no need for a player like Fournier, who is likely to be traded to another team if the Jazz end up getting him. In fact, I'm actually higher on the Heat's Jovic than any player the Knicks can offer.

In the end, the Jazz doesn't need to trade Mitchell, and if they do, they have 28 other teams they can talk with. While it's true the Knicks is one of the teams who can offer the most (at least in draft compensation), that's really the only advantage they have over other teams (because the Jazz aren't looking to get good established players) and it is only an advantage for them if they are willing to give them away, otherwise they are no more attractive as a trade partner than any other team.

So yes, the price for Mitchell is absurd, but if the Knicks want him that's what they'll have to pay. Historically, the Kicks aren't very good drafters anyway, and if they spend another season going nowhere with around 37 wins or maybe another first round exit in the playoffs, the FO will have to explain to the fans why they chose not to trade for a guy like Mitchell when he was available just so they could keep a FRP in 2029 which the Knicks would likely whiff on anyways (no offense).

[Gert42]

Exactly who do you think DM is? This is a delusional ask. That's a package that I'd only pay for a prime Giannis/Lebron/Curry type. Adding DM doesn't get them anywhere near contending so why would they sell the farm for a one way chucker as if the Melo trade never happened. Q Grimes / Obi have high ceilings. Grimes is probably the in house solution that they need and the longer Utah slow rolls it, the better the chance the Knicks figure it out. Take Herro, Jovic and 3 firsts and filler and tank away. DM makes a ton more sense for MIA but the league won't overpay just because Minny did.

FWIW, I think the price Ainge is asking for Mitchell is absurd, but the Gobert trade changed things because what he managed to get for him was also an absurd return, and it set the price for the entire market, hence the asking price for Mitchell and why the entire league essentially stopped making trades once that deal happened, and why Durant is still in Brooklyn (because based on the return the Jazz got for Gobert, Durant should fetch double, which is a price no team can pay).

Having said that, I have to disagree about the assessment of players like Grimes, Toppin, Quickley, etc. None of them have high ceilings imho. None of them are going to be stars or allstars, their ceiling is a starting-caliber player on a good team.

Personally, I'm not that high on any Knick player, other than Grimes who does look interesting and looks like he could develop into a solid starter, but no more than that. And the Jazz have no need for a player like Fournier, who is likely to be traded to another team if the Jazz end up getting him. In fact, I'm actually higher on the Heat's Jovic than any player the Knicks can offer.

In the end, the Jazz doesn't need to trade Mitchell, and if they do, they have 28 other teams they can talk with. While it's true the Knicks is one of the teams who can offer the most (at least in draft compensation), that's really the only advantage they have over other teams (because the Jazz aren't looking to get good established players) and it is only an advantage for them if they are willing to give them away, otherwise they are no more attractive as a trade partner than any other team.

So yes, the price for Mitchell is absurd, but if the Knicks want him that's what they'll have to pay. Historically, the Kicks aren't very good drafters anyway, and if they spend another season going nowhere with around 37 wins or maybe another first round exit in the playoffs, the FO will have to explain to the fans why they chose not to trade for a guy like Mitchell when he was available just so they could keep a FRP in 2029 which the Knicks would likely whiff on anyways (no offense).

I think too many people look at the Gobert deal because it involved the Jazz, but I think people could also look at the Dejounte Murray trade as well to see what parts of this trade may look like.

Atlanta traded:

Danilo Galinari (Who the Spurs one have one year at a $13 million dollar number)
2023 Charlotte 1RP (1-16 protected)
2025 Atlanta 1RP (Unprotected)
2027 Atlanta 1RP (Unprotected)

So essentially one FRP that looks like the Detroit pick protection, 2 unprotected.

In a trade for DM, Evan Fournier would have to be involved who would be 2/$37 versus Gallo's buyout at $13 million. That most likely adds another 1RP. They also have to find about 8 million dollars in salary to go with Fournier's hence probably the player of their choice between Toppin, IQ, Grimes.

It's just interesting that in some of these machinations of the trade that Brunson, Randle, Barrett are not going to be in the trade and Toppin and Grimes are off the table? Doesn't seem realistic to me. (Doesn't mean I couldn't see the Knicks saying its too much). I just don't think with what the Jazz are giving up the Jazz won't have some say in one or two of the non Fournier guys coming back to them.

[vryadli]

Jazz already have a pick swap in 2026 with the TWolves.

I would add IQ (NY shouldn't care as he won't get much playing time) and Wizards pick and I would do it. 3 unprotected picks, 2 protected picks and 3 young players on par with the 8 FRPs DA has reportedly asked for.

Exactly who do you think DM is? This is a delusional ask. That's a package that I'd only pay for a prime Giannis/Lebron/Curry type. Adding DM doesn't get them anywhere near contending so why would they sell the farm for a one way chucker as if the Melo trade never happened. Q Grimes / Obi have high ceilings. Grimes is probably the in house solution that they need and the longer Utah slow rolls it, the better the chance the Knicks figure it out. Take Herro, Jovic and 3 firsts and filler and tank away. DM makes a ton more sense for MIA but the league won't overpay just because Minny did.

Donovan is a top 20 player locked up for several years. New York might decide to walk but they aren't the only fish in the sea.

It takes some concentrated efforts to push DM in top 20. And even iacase of success he will be at the the very bottom of top 20.

[vryadli]

FWIW, I think the price Ainge is asking for Mitchell is absurd, but the Gobert trade changed things because what he managed to get for him was also an absurd return, and it set the price for the entire market, hence the asking price for Mitchell and why the entire league essentially stopped making trades once that deal happened, and why Durant is still in Brooklyn (because based on the return the Jazz got for Gobert, Durant should fetch double, which is a price no team can pay).
.

One can disparage Gobert all day long, but in the end of the day there still only one gobert in this league. And there are at least 10 players alike DM but BETTER in some significant ways. So.

I think may be Utah doesn't really want to trade DM, but intends these proceedinds as a lesson in humility for him. "See, you are not as good as you think... Nobody really wants you that bad"

[babyjax13]

Exactly who do you think DM is? This is a delusional ask. That's a package that I'd only pay for a prime Giannis/Lebron/Curry type. Adding DM doesn't get them anywhere near contending so why would they sell the farm for a one way chucker as if the Melo trade never happened. Q Grimes / Obi have high ceilings. Grimes is probably the in house solution that they need and the longer Utah slow rolls it, the better the chance the Knicks figure it out. Take Herro, Jovic and 3 firsts and filler and tank away. DM makes a ton more sense for MIA but the league won't overpay just because Minny did.

Donovan is a top 20 player locked up for several years. New York might decide to walk but they aren't the only fish in the sea.

It takes some concentrated efforts to push DM in top 20. And even iacase of success he will be at the the very bottom of top 20.

21-22
BPM: 19th
VORP: 17th
RAPTOR-WAR: 47th
EPM: 20th
LEBRON-WAR: 33rd

20-21
BPM: 19th
VORP: 28th
RAPTOR-WAR: 26th
LEBRON-WAR: 54th

Don't see how it is a stretch.