Ben Wallace v. other great defensive but offensively challenged bigs

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tsherkin
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Re: Ben Wallace v. other great defensive but offensively challenged bigs 

Post#21 » by tsherkin » Sat Aug 6, 2022 12:10 am

kcktiny wrote:
Ben Wallace is universally regarded as one of the worst offensive players in the history of the league.


By who? Nothing could be further from the truth.

Could he shoot? No. But he never averaged as much as even 10 FGA/g in a season, and in his career averaged just 5 FGA/g. So his misses did not really hurt his team much.

Could he score? No. But a team does not need five scorers to be successful.

But Wallace had more than three offensive rebounds for every turnover over his entire 16 year career.

That is a very valuable offensive contribution.


I think that if you look at his usage, his turnover rate is less impressive. He was never trusted with the ball because no one would guard him more than like 4 feet from the basket and they would hack him knowing that he was incompetent from the line. No handles, not a threat to drive, like he was basically a no-go once he got the ball unless he could immediately just dunk it off an ORB or easy shovel pass. He was an absolute embarrassment on offense, but he was playable because his rebounding and defense were very valuable, particularly in-era. I think he'd be more challenging to play as much today.

Remember that you're talking about an 11.0 USG% player whose career OBPM is -0.1.

His TOV was even 13.8% on his career, which is actually garbage when you consider his usage rate. He was not a good offensive player at all. In-era, his D and rebounding made that irrelevant, though, because their impact was so high that they dramatically outweighed his incompetence on offense. That's the difference.
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Re: Ben Wallace v. other great defensive but offensively challenged bigs 

Post#22 » by kcktiny » Sat Aug 6, 2022 2:25 am

That said ... your argument seems to be that he shouldn't be regarded in such a way.


Correct.

That doesn't necessarily mean he isn't.


Uninformed minds.

So it doesn't seem too hard to find people who do believe this.


Nor people who believe in aliens or Santa Claus.

He was an absolute embarrassment on offense


Patently false. Last time I checked great offensive rebounding and few turnovers are important parts of a successful offense.

The 16 years he played, he had more offensive rebounds (3444) than anyone else in the league. He did this while committing very few turnovers and missing very few shots.

On top of this he was a great pick-setter.

And he did all this while committing very few fouls for a C.

His TOV was even 13.8% on his career,


So what? His career turnover rate was just 1.3 TO/40min. That's miniscule. How is that hurting his team's offense?

He was not a good offensive player at all.


Correct. He was not a "good" player on offense.

But he was far far from being anywhere near one of the worst in the history of the game.

I suggest you get into the habit of counting ball possessions. How often a player gets a ball for his team on offense (like via offensive rebounds) versus how often he loses the ball (like via missed shots rebounded by the opponent and turnovers).

Do that and you'll find compared to other Cs - especially those who excelled on defense and did not participate much on offense - Ben Wallace was far from a deficit but was in fact an asset on offense.
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Re: Ben Wallace v. other great defensive but offensively challenged bigs 

Post#23 » by KobesScarf » Sun Aug 7, 2022 6:18 pm

No love for Theo Ratlif?

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