Tobias Harris Trade Thread

[76ciology]

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Looking forward for Tobias to continue this type of defense next season

[76ciology]

Admittedly, we’re all bored at this part of the offseason. So let’s play this game. I believe we’d learn a lot with this discussion.

Suns played better defense without Crowder vs with crowder in the playoffs. Ingram torched him. (DRTG 116 vs 108)

Suns almost had no improvement with crowder vs without crowder on defense. (DRTG 105.9 vs 105.5)

Crowder and Tobias’ individual defense in regular season is almost equal (-.3DFG% vs -.6DFG%), Tobias (-.2DFG%) was better than Crowder (+1.2%) in individual defense in the playoffs.

Tobias and Crowder have equal reb% and blk%

In relative to one another, Crowder’s defense is overrated (it’s nowhere near as good as Tucker) while Tobias’ offense and Tobias’ defense are both underrated.

Projection. I dont think Crowder has a chance to be as good as Tobias on offense, while Tobias has a very good chance to be as good as Crowder on defense. One needs years to develop the offensive skillset, and the other is effort.

I dont mind trading Tobias. But Crowder ain’t it. I’ll be more open if we have Myles Turner in return instead.

[mjkvol]

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Looking forward for Tobias to continue this type of defense next season

Still waiting on those videos from the Miami series.

[LeonJordanJr24]

Miami might change the whole narrative.

[76ciology]

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Looking forward for Tobias to continue this type of defense next season

Still waiting on those videos from the Miami series.

Yes, and Crowder wasn’t as good as Tobias on defense even taking the Heat series into consideration.

And if we’d do a rematch with the Heat, Tucker or House or Melton would be on Jimmy while you’d have more utility with Tobias’ offense than wasting Crowder’s defense on Max Strus.

[76ciology]

Miami might change the whole narrative.

No. Crowder isn’t still better than Tobias on defense in last year’s playoffs even if you consider the Heat series.

Players shot better than their average % when Crowder is defending them while the Suns played better on defense without Crowder on the court. Crowder just averaged 27mpg on 6ppg on the Suns last 3 games, he was not playable.

If you want to change the narrative, you have to consider regular season games and put more emphasis on Tobias’ defense prior to when he took his defense into another gear when Harden arrived.

[76ciology]

You look at how we run our offense. It’s collapse and kick out. There’s not much movement and it’s very predictable.

And if you face teams like the Bucks or the Raps that have elite length, spot up shooters like Niang or Tucker will have problems to make it fly (remember that Danny Green have to drive to the rim or make step back 3s?) that you need to be able to attack closeouts and make secondary drive and kick to get better quality shots. Without that you’ll end up like one of those Rox squad who would be at the mercy of how hot or cold your 3pt shooting is that game

[76ciology]

I find the Tobias for Crowder does not consider the second order consequence.

After the trade, you’d be left with a hole in scoring. And if you replace that scoring, would that scorer be able to play with your top 3 guys? Most of these cheap off the bench scorers are liabilities on the offensive end and are not as consistent on offense like Tobias.

Like Sixerscan said, Harden giving up 15M this year is like Tobias getting just a $20M per year contract that allows us to get Tucker, House and Melton.

The addition of Tucker, Melton and House, lessens the required load for Tobias on defense. The addition of Harden, lessens the required load for Tobias on offense.

All these moves makes Tobias, in effect, like an efficient 2 way 17ppg player on a $20M per year contract.

I think this stuff about missing Tobias scoring is somewhat overrated.

Between Maxey improving and Joel and Harden developing even more chemistry, plus whomever you'd get for Tobias, plus improved defense likely leading to a couple extra buckets a game, I can't imagine we struggle to find 17 points a game. I haven't looked into this but how many 4th options really average 17 a game anyway? It wouldn't surprise me if his point total drops a bit this year.

Here we go again.

We don’t need Tobias if we have Giannis, instead of Embiid, who we can count to play atleast his 100% on the biggest games. We have to factor in how to win games when Embiid is physically or spiritually absent. And when that happens, Harden would need a lot of scoring help

Then once reg season kicks in and we watch teams drop 140pts, we’d revert back to “there can’t be too much scorers on one team”

Then once playoffs kicks in and we can’t make 3s because of cold shooting or opponent have crazy length (remember the 6’8” and above line-up of the Raps?) we’d wish we have someone who can attack close outs or attack the defense off transition.

[LeonJordanJr24]

Miami might change the whole narrative.

No. Crowder isn’t still better than Tobias on defense in last year’s playoffs even if you consider the Heat series.

Players shot better than their average % when Crowder is defending them while the Suns played better on defense without Crowder on the court. Crowder just averaged 27mpg on 6ppg on the Suns last 3 games, he was not playable.



If you want to change the narrative, you have to consider regular season games and put more emphasis on Tobias’ defense prior to when he took his defense into another gear when Harden arrived.

I want to add Crowder 10 mill ..not subtract tobias to get him.
Would package Korkmaz ,Niang , Joe and or Springer types to get it done.

[76ciology]

Miami might change the whole narrative.

No. Crowder isn’t still better than Tobias on defense in last year’s playoffs even if you consider the Heat series.

Players shot better than their average % when Crowder is defending them while the Suns played better on defense without Crowder on the court. Crowder just averaged 27mpg on 6ppg on the Suns last 3 games, he was not playable.



If you want to change the narrative, you have to consider regular season games and put more emphasis on Tobias’ defense prior to when he took his defense into another gear when Harden arrived.

I want to add Crowder 10 mill ..not subtract tobias to get him.
Would package Korkmaz ,Niang , Joe and or Springer types to get it done.

Hmm.. I’d love to see that happen but I just dont see the Suns doing it

[mjkvol]

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Looking forward for Tobias to continue this type of defense next season

Still waiting on those videos from the Miami series.

Yes, and Crowder wasn’t as good as Tobias on defense even taking the Heat series into consideration.

And if we’d do a rematch with the Heat, Tucker or House or Melton would be on Jimmy while you’d have more utility with Tobias’ offense than wasting Crowder’s defense on Max Strus.

You keep comparing Tobias to Crowder - I never mentioned Crowder other than the idea of getting him for Thybulle if it was possible, which is unlikely.

But I'd stiil like to see Tom West videos raving about Tonias' play against Miami.

[76ciology]

Still waiting on those videos from the Miami series.

Yes, and Crowder wasn’t as good as Tobias on defense even taking the Heat series into consideration.

And if we’d do a rematch with the Heat, Tucker or House or Melton would be on Jimmy while you’d have more utility with Tobias’ offense than wasting Crowder’s defense on Max Strus.

You keep comparing Tobias to Crowder - I never mentioned Crowder other than the idea of getting him for Thybulle if it was possible, which is unlikely.

But I'd stiil like to see Tom West videos raving about Tonias' play against Miami.

None. Because Tobias was just average at best at the Heat series.

Tobias, who was our fourth best player on the team averaged 16ppg on 48-33-86 shooting, which outplayed Max Struss who was the Heat’s fourth best player in the series.

The problem was Heat’s top 2 players in Jimmy and Bam outplayed our team’s top 2 players in Embiid and Harden.

Should Tobias outplayed Jimmy? That’s like asking, should Max Struss outplay Joel Embiid?

The issue in the Heat series was not the defense on Jimmy.

Jimmy had the hot hand in the playoff. He averaged 27ppg on 50FG%, not even the Celts defense can stop him from getting his numbers. And was miraculously knocking down 3s when during the reg season he was one of the worst shooters in the league.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

The issue in the Heat series was our top 2 guys were not on par with the Heat’s top 2 guys.

If Embiid and Harden were at par with Jimmy and Bam, we would have won that series.

In the playoffs, when your alpha dont show up to play, you dont have any chance.

Steph.
Doncic.
Tatum.
Jimmy.
Tobias?

“Joel Embiid over me?!” - Jimmy Butler shouting after game 6 (in a parallel universe)

[76ciology]

Btw, looking at this Jimmy Clips..

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Jimmy just attacked Embiid on defense. He mostly just run a 2 man game involving Embiid, and just shoots if Embiid does not step out and just do his tricks whenever Embiid steps out. And if Embiid steps out, we are left naked in the paint.

It’s lowkey a “Gobert-like” dilemma on defense at hand.

The way to deal with this is the same way Heat and Raps neutralize the Embiid-Harden PnR. Put some switchable and physical wing on the ball handler, where Tucker and Barnes can switch and push Embiid out the paint.

In this scenario if Tucker is on Jimmy, Embiid can step out on Jimmy while Tucker can wrestle with Bam for position in the paint. While Tobi can possibly help to provide additional body or to crash the board.

[M2J]

I find the Tobias for Crowder does not consider the second order consequence.

After the trade, you’d be left with a hole in scoring. And if you replace that scoring, would that scorer be able to play with your top 3 guys? Most of these cheap off the bench scorers are liabilities on the offensive end and are not as consistent on offense like Tobias.

Like Sixerscan said, Harden giving up 15M this year is like Tobias getting just a $20M per year contract that allows us to get Tucker, House and Melton.

The addition of Tucker, Melton and House, lessens the required load for Tobias on defense. The addition of Harden, lessens the required load for Tobias on offense.

All these moves makes Tobias, in effect, like an efficient 2 way 17ppg player on a $20M per year contract.

I think this stuff about missing Tobias scoring is somewhat overrated.

Between Maxey improving and Joel and Harden developing even more chemistry, plus whomever you'd get for Tobias, plus improved defense likely leading to a couple extra buckets a game, I can't imagine we struggle to find 17 points a game. I haven't looked into this but how many 4th options really average 17 a game anyway? It wouldn't surprise me if his point total drops a bit this year.

Here we go again.

We don’t need Tobias if we have Giannis, instead of Embiid, who we can count to play atleast his 100% on the biggest games. We have to factor in how to win games when Embiid is physically or spiritually absent. And when that happens, Harden would need a lot of scoring help

Then once reg season kicks in and we watch teams drop 140pts, we’d revert back to “there can’t be too much scorers on one team”

Then once playoffs kicks in and we can’t make 3s because of cold shooting or opponent have crazy length (remember the 6’8” and above line-up of the Raps?) we’d wish we have someone who can attack close outs or attack the defense off transition.

Exactly. You can certainly have a big 3 of Joel, James, Tyrese and get some shots to a Niang or Green. The offense works when the offense works. But in the postseason when they don't leave George Niang or a Duncan Robinson, or chasing Tucker off the line..... You're wishing for a Tobi who is ALWAYS going to be able to GENERATE 8-12 points as a release valve. When those other guys are Hot, they get 12-15. When Tobi is hot, he gets 20-35 and allows James to focus on playmaking and Joel to focus on defense and rebounding.

If Joel and Maxey are resting, James has another go to player who can generate offense and get 3 assists playmaking for others.

So yes, in a vacuum you can make up Tobias' points when things are working well with others. But he does have a skill set that can't be figured out like a three-point specialist only. Bringing consistency.

He's a luxury to have as a 4th option and secondary defender. As Sixercan pointed out, the depth issue was completely solved by Harden. So I'm shocked to see that trading Tobias for the likes of Crowder is still a topic.... This thread is supposed to be solely about trading Tobias and fillers and picks for a better player than Tobias. A star that can extend the Sixers window a few years. Unless I thought M. Bridges would have room for improvement, I may do it (because you'd likely get more than just Bridges due to contracts, but I would have to seriously think about trading Tobias for him in order to try to win a championship this particular season. Tobi is over paid, but has the skill set to be an absolute star in the role of 4th option. Last year, if Harden and Joel were healthy in the playoffs. I think he would have been.

[Iverson Armband]

Miami might change the whole narrative.

No. Crowder isn’t still better than Tobias on defense in last year’s playoffs even if you consider the Heat series.

Players shot better than their average % when Crowder is defending them while the Suns played better on defense without Crowder on the court. Crowder just averaged 27mpg on 6ppg on the Suns last 3 games, he was not playable.



If you want to change the narrative, you have to consider regular season games and put more emphasis on Tobias’ defense prior to when he took his defense into another gear when Harden arrived.

I want to add Crowder 10 mill ..not subtract tobias to get him.
Would package Korkmaz ,Niang , Joe and or Springer types to get it done.

10 pennies does not equal a dollar

[HardenToSixers]

I said an in-form Jae Crowder. I was lazily making a comparison. Yes, Mikal Bridges is a good comp as well but due to his relative youth in the league the asking price would be high. My point was that even with Tobias playing as well as he did relative to his ceiling, I'm still not sure he provided any more value than we would get out of a good 3&D player.

And I don't want to gamble on him playing as well as he did relative to his own season going into next year.

I don't know what the target is, but since it likely won't be KD, I would be keen to trade him plus an asset for a better wing if anybody is valuing him as highly as some of the people on this board are rating his play to end the year.

[76ciology]

Thats why Rockets can’t win a championship. You can’t just surround your team with spot up shooters.

By doing so, you’d then just live and die with the 3. What happens when your 3pt shooters dont show up?

For instance, the Harden-Embiid PnR was great. The Harden iso was great. The Embiid iso was great. But what happened when you face a Tucker-Bam or Barnes-Achiuwa duo that can switch that two man game and be light on any help defense while having excellent length to close out?

We were too predictable during the Heat and the last x games of the Raps series.

The biggest reason why the Warriors are great is not because of their 3pt shooting. But Warriors are flexible.

They can play small.
They can play extra small.
They can play extra big.
They can play big.
You take away their shooting, they do backdoor cuts.
You take away their cuts, u open their shooters
You gravitate towards Curry, Draymond fake the handoff and goes for easy basket.

You can say the same thing with the Celts. Smart and Horford are very skilled guys. Not just shooters, which makes their offense more dynamic than just a collapse and kickout to shooters type scheme.

Right now we have that talent to be that good, we just need good chemistry with the right scheme.

[76ciology]

After reading posts by 76ciology, i decided to write an article about it

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[SixersSince82]

Here we go again.

We don’t need Tobias if we have Giannis, instead of Embiid, who we can count to play atleast his 100% on the biggest games. We have to factor in how to win games when Embiid is physically or spiritually absent. And when that happens, Harden would need a lot of scoring help

Then once reg season kicks in and we watch teams drop 140pts, we’d revert back to “there can’t be too much scorers on one team”

Then once playoffs kicks in and we can’t make 3s because of cold shooting or opponent have crazy length (remember the 6’8” and above line-up of the Raps?) we’d wish we have someone who can attack close outs or attack the defense off transition.

I dont agree with any of that.

Tobias isn't good enough to win you playoff games (besides maybe the 1st round) if Joel isn't playing. If he were we'd have won one of those first 2 miami games... or at least kept them close, but in reality the were blowouts. He doesn't actually affect the tone or pace of the game. Dude isn't going to ever force his will on the opponent, or stop another team's run or create a run for the 6ers. He's an empty calorie scorer, basically. So your point amounts to winning a 2 or 3 extra regular season games. If that... I remember years of complaints about Tobi and Ben's inability to win us games without Joel.

I think your overstating Tobias as some sort of key to get around the perimeter defense of teams that have length. Dude doesn't pump fake and attack the basket with any sort of force. He's a slow decision maker with no vision who (for a wing) plods into mid range turn around jumpers. A large part of the time he dribbles to nowhere and then they reset.

For sure he's a more talented basketball player than Jae Crowder. But I can't go so far as to suggest he's an important piece to the 6ers title hopes.

[mjkvol]

I dont agree with any of that.

Tobias isn't good enough to win you playoff games (besides maybe the 1st round) if Joel isn't playing. If he were we'd have won one of those first 2 miami games... or at least kept them close, but in reality the were blowouts. He doesn't actually affect the tone or pace of the game. Dude isn't going to ever force his will on the opponent, or stop another team's run or create a run for the 6ers. He's an empty calorie scorer, basically. So your point amounts to winning a 2 or 3 extra regular season games. If that... I remember years of complaints about Tobi and Ben's inability to win us games without Joel.

I think your overstating Tobias as some sort of key to get around the perimeter defense of teams that have length. Dude doesn't pump fake and attack the basket with any sort of force. He's a slow decision maker with no vision who (for a wing) plods into mid range turn around jumpers. A large part of the time he dribbles to nowhere and then they reset.

For sure he's a more talented basketball player than Jae Crowder. But I can't go so far as to suggest he's an important piece to the 6ers title hopes.

This just nails it.