Who's better between jerry west and oscar robertson?

[70sFan]

Neither one of them were better than Kobe. Thats just your typical PC Board hipster take. Id put Jerry over Oscar though.

This thread is not about Kobe, there is no reason to mention him here.

The literal first sentence of this thread:

"I think they are both underrated and have a good argument for top 10 all times, and I have both ahead of kobe in my all time list."

I was responding to the OP, actually.

That's his opinion, he didn't ask about your opinion about it. The thread is about Oscar vs West, not Kobe vs them.

I wonder why you are still active on this board if you have such a low opinion on us.

[pipfan]

I have them in the 12-16 area, with Curry, Moses, KG and Dr. J
Hard for me to say-I started watching the NBA in the late 70's, so I didn't see them

[Stalwart]

This thread is not about Kobe, there is no reason to mention him here.

The literal first sentence of this thread:

"I think they are both underrated and have a good argument for top 10 all times, and I have both ahead of kobe in my all time list."

I was responding to the OP, actually.

That's his opinion, he didn't ask about your opinion about it. The thread is about Oscar vs West, not Kobe vs them.

Yes he did actually

I wonder why you are still active on this board if you have such a low opinion on us.

I don't have a low opinion of the posters here. I have a low opinion of some of the analysis that happens here. I post here because I like to challenge and be challenged and sometimes posters here provide that.

Also, there are alot lurkers and passersbys that scroll through the PC Board including a lot of younger and more impressionable fans. I feel its important to be a voice of reason when you guys are putting up threads saying Reggie Miller is a top 20 player of all time, for example.

[Samurai]

I don't think it's racial, I think West had more of a long range jumper or slash mentality while Oscar was famous for working his man, if you gave him a 20 footer, he'd try to work you for a 15 footer, if you gave him the 12 footer, he'd try to push in for 10. He was so much stronger than any of the other guards of his era (including West) that he could finish through defenders more than West who got knocked down more and tended to be more reliant on speed and getting separation.

That seems to be a good thingh no? If he is able to get better shots where west is forced to take longer jumpers that are worth the same that is part of their jumpshooting skillsets too

And if west could get similar jumpers but just liked to take longer ones for no clear benefit then that would also talk well about oscar shot selection relative to west

I don't think it is true that their jump-shooting skillsets were the same (although I suppose that depends on how you define jump-shooting skillset), and you are correct that West could not get similar jumpers but it is due to their physical characteristics and not jump-shooting skillsets. Jeff Mullins, a 3-time all star, said that West and Oscar were the two best players he ever guarded (and he played during their primes). I asked Mullins about their differences. He said that Oscar was the master at backing you down to keep getting closer and closer to the basket. He could do that because he was the first "big guard" who was just bigger and stronger than whoever was guarding him. Yes, bigger and stronger than West. Plus Oscar had "that great big butt" (his words, not mine!); Oscar could just use his "great big butt" as a battering ram to inch closer and closer to the basket. Thus the vast majority of Oscar's jumpshots were post-up turnaround jumpers. Because West didn't have the same size, strength, or butt, he relied more on his quickness so West shot many more moving jumpers (coming off screens) than Oscar. West was known for having the quickest pull-up jumper until Curry came onto the scene; and the speed of Curry's pull-up jumper has been compared with videos of West's.

So I think you are missing a lot of context to ignore the types of shots both players tended to shoot when trying to compare jump-shooting skillsets. Oscar clearly had the better post-up game and turnaround jumper since his size was a key weapon in his favor. West had the better pull-up jumper and much better range on his jumper. Remember that Oscar rarely attempted a jumpshot beyond 16 feet or so. Think back to when Oscar played "around the world" in one of those halftime contests on TV; remember the first shot had to come from the top of the key. Since I had never seen Oscar shoot a jumpshot from that distance in an actual game, I was curious what that would look like or if he could even do it. If you recall, he didn't. He opted to use the old-fashioned one hand set shot similar to his free throws. West, on the other hand, used his same jumpshot motion for a 15-footer as he would for shots that today would be considered 3-pointers. Of course, West like everyone else not named Lucas rarely shot from that distance in a game since you can shoot a better percentage from 15 feet than you can from 23 feet. But since Oscar didn't shoot from beyond 16 feet and West would attempt more shots in the 16+ foot range, it doesn't surprise me that Oscar would shoot a slightly higher percentage.

[Cavsfansince84]

I don't have a low opinion of the posters here. I have a low opinion of some of the analysis that happens here. I post here because I like to challenge and be challenged and sometimes posters here provide that.

Also, there are alot lurkers and passersbys that scroll through the PC Board including a lot of younger and more impressionable fans. I feel its important to be a voice of reason when you guys are putting up threads saying Reggie Miller is a top 20 player of all time, for example.

I know the thread you are talking about and it wasn't saying Reggie is top 20 all time. There was like one person who said he saw a possible argument for him being that high even though he didn't. There were other posters saying they had him top 35 or top 40. That's not a group of posters making threads about Reggie being top 20. Just be honest in what you say. That wasn't an example. It was hyperbole to try and make a point.

[Colbinii]

Also, there are alot lurkers and passersbys that scroll through the PC Board including a lot of younger and more impressionable fans. I feel its important to be a voice of reason when you guys are putting up threads saying Reggie Miller is a top 20 player of all time, for example.

Well I hope all the lurkers have stronger reading capabilities than you since you seem to lack them considering the thread was "Highest Reasonable Ranking" and the entirety of my posts in the thread were presenting an argument I didn't necessarily agree with but could see being presented.

[falcolombardi]

I don't think it's racial, I think West had more of a long range jumper or slash mentality while Oscar was famous for working his man, if you gave him a 20 footer, he'd try to work you for a 15 footer, if you gave him the 12 footer, he'd try to push in for 10. He was so much stronger than any of the other guards of his era (including West) that he could finish through defenders more than West who got knocked down more and tended to be more reliant on speed and getting separation.

That seems to be a good thingh no? If he is able to get better shots where west is forced to take longer jumpers that are worth the same that is part of their jumpshooting skillsets too

And if west could get similar jumpers but just liked to take longer ones for no clear benefit then that would also talk well about oscar shot selection relative to west

I don't think it is true that their jump-shooting skillsets were the same (although I suppose that depends on how you define jump-shooting skillset), and you are correct that West could not get similar jumpers but it is due to their physical characteristics and not jump-shooting skillsets. Jeff Mullins, a 3-time all star, said that West and Oscar were the two best players he ever guarded (and he played during their primes). I asked Mullins about their differences. He said that Oscar was the master at backing you down to keep getting closer and closer to the basket. He could do that because he was the first "big guard" who was just bigger and stronger than whoever was guarding him. Yes, bigger and stronger than West. Plus Oscar had "that great big butt" (his words, not mine!); Oscar could just use his "great big butt" as a battering ram to inch closer and closer to the basket. Thus the vast majority of Oscar's jumpshots were post-up turnaround jumpers. Because West didn't have the same size, strength, or butt, he relied more on his quickness so West shot many more moving jumpers (coming off screens) than Oscar. West was known for having the quickest pull-up jumper until Curry came onto the scene; and the speed of Curry's pull-up jumper has been compared with videos of West's.

So I think you are missing a lot of context to ignore the types of shots both players tended to shoot when trying to compare jump-shooting skillsets. Oscar clearly had the better post-up game and turnaround jumper since his size was a key weapon in his favor. West had the better pull-up jumper and much better range on his jumper. Remember that Oscar rarely attempted a jumpshot beyond 16 feet or so. Think back to when Oscar played "around the world" in one of those halftime contests on TV; remember the first shot had to come from the top of the key. Since I had never seen Oscar shoot a jumpshot from that distance in an actual game, I was curious what that would look like or if he could even do it. If you recall, he didn't. He opted to use the old-fashioned one hand set shot similar to his free throws. West, on the other hand, used his same jumpshot motion for a 15-footer as he would for shots that today would be considered 3-pointers. Of course, West like everyone else not named Lucas rarely shot from that distance in a game since you can shoot a better percentage from 15 feet than you can from 23 feet. But since Oscar didn't shoot from beyond 16 feet and West would attempt more shots in the 16+ foot range, it doesn't surprise me that Oscar would shoot a slightly higher percentage.

I have been watching west footage and he seems to mostly work off isolation amd post ups to set up his jumpers

Although as you say, he uses excellent shot fakes and quick steps/spins more than brute power. His shot high release point and shot quickness as well as his excellent use of shot fakes seem to be his main weapons. He has a very quick spin move to jumpshot

He just post ups/isolates a ton (i am using games from 66 vs celtics, 63 vs celtics amd 70 vs knicks here)

I agree he does this from surpringly long range (i would guesstimate he works of what would today be considered long 2' range, just a step inside the line)

But he doesnt seem to move off ball for jumpers or use ball screens too often. Granted the era makes this harder

His approach is very jordankobe mold. Lots of short drives into midrange jumpers, fakes etc. In all honestly his approach reminds me a lot of second three peat jordan but with -less- off ball runs and curls grantes i am going of limited footage here so i would defer on this topic to people who have analized him a lot more than me

Need to watch oscar footage and compare here

[70sFan]

The literal first sentence of this thread:

"I think they are both underrated and have a good argument for top 10 all times, and I have both ahead of kobe in my all time list."

I was responding to the OP, actually.

That's his opinion, he didn't ask about your opinion about it. The thread is about Oscar vs West, not Kobe vs them.

Yes he did actually

I wonder why you are still active on this board if you have such a low opinion on us.

I don't have a low opinion of the posters here. I have a low opinion of some of the analysis that happens here. I post here because I like to challenge and be challenged and sometimes posters here provide that.

Also, there are alot lurkers and passersbys that scroll through the PC Board including a lot of younger and more impressionable fans. I feel its important to be a voice of reason when you guys are putting up threads saying Reggie Miller is a top 20 player of all time, for example.

I think the voice of reason should have the basic reading capabilities than you. I know what thread you are talking about and it wasn't about Reggie being top 20 player of all-time. Only one poster said he could see the case for Reggie being ranked this high within a very specific arguments. He also said he doesn't agree with that ranking.

[falcolombardi]

That's his opinion, he didn't ask about your opinion about it. The thread is about Oscar vs West, not Kobe vs them.

Yes he did actually

I wonder why you are still active on this board if you have such a low opinion on us.

I don't have a low opinion of the posters here. I have a low opinion of some of the analysis that happens here. I post here because I like to challenge and be challenged and sometimes posters here provide that.

Also, there are alot lurkers and passersbys that scroll through the PC Board including a lot of younger and more impressionable fans. I feel its important to be a voice of reason when you guys are putting up threads saying Reggie Miller is a top 20 player of all time, for example.

I think the voice of reason should have the basic reading capabilities than you. I know what thread you are talking about and it wasn't about Reggie being top 20 player of all-time. Only one poster said he could see the case for Reggie being ranked this high within a very specific arguments. He also said he doesn't agree with that ranking.

By the way since i am interested in your opinion as spmeone who has watched west much more than me. How off the mark am i here

His approach looks very jordan/kobe mold. Lots of short drives into midrange jumpers, fakes etc. In all honestly his approach reminds me a lot of second three peat jordan but with -less- off ball runs and curls granted i am going of limited footage here so i would defer on this topic to people who have analized him a lot more than me

he uses excellent shot fakes and quick steps/spins more than brute power. His shot high release point and shot quickness as well as his excellent use of shot fakes seem to be his main weapons. He has a very quick spin move to jumpshot

He just post ups/isolates a ton (i am using games from 66 vs celtics, 63 vs celtics amd 70 vs knicks here)

I agree he does this from surpringly long range (i would guesstimate he works of what would today be considered long 2' range, just a step inside the line)

But he doesnt seem to move off ball for jumpers or use ball screens too often. Granted the era makes this harder
He doesnt seem as off-ball heavy as often said in comparisions with oscar (incidentally havlicek seems to play more that off-ball heavy style of play west is often described like) as he does more of his work of post/face up isolations to drive or set up his jumper

West handles look good but he also seems careless at times losing sight of the field and being pickpocketed by blindsiding rivals somewhat worringly often. Although this is such limited sample i watched i dont wanna draw conclusions

I am also curipus what you think of the jumpshooting debate (what was oscar more efficient at than west to have the higher ts% when west is usually seen as the better shooter and inside scorer)

[70sFan]

Yes he did actually



I don't have a low opinion of the posters here. I have a low opinion of some of the analysis that happens here. I post here because I like to challenge and be challenged and sometimes posters here provide that.

Also, there are alot lurkers and passersbys that scroll through the PC Board including a lot of younger and more impressionable fans. I feel its important to be a voice of reason when you guys are putting up threads saying Reggie Miller is a top 20 player of all time, for example.

I think the voice of reason should have the basic reading capabilities than you. I know what thread you are talking about and it wasn't about Reggie being top 20 player of all-time. Only one poster said he could see the case for Reggie being ranked this high within a very specific arguments. He also said he doesn't agree with that ranking.

By the way since i am interested in your opinion as spmeone who has watched west much more than me. How off the mark am i here

His approach looks very jordan/kobe mold. Lots of short drives into midrange jumpers, fakes etc. In all honestly his approach reminds me a lot of second three peat jordan but with -less- off ball runs and curls granted i am going of limited footage here so i would defer on this topic to people who have analized him a lot more than me

he uses excellent shot fakes and quick steps/spins more than brute power. His shot high release point and shot quickness as well as his excellent use of shot fakes seem to be his main weapons. He has a very quick spin move to jumpshot

He just post ups/isolates a ton (i am using games from 66 vs celtics, 63 vs celtics amd 70 vs knicks here)

I agree he does this from surpringly long range (i would guesstimate he works of what would today be considered long 2' range, just a step inside the line)

But he doesnt seem to move off ball for jumpers or use ball screens too often. Granted the era makes this harder
He doesnt seem as off-ball heavy as often said in comparisions with oscar (incidentally havlicek seems to play more that off-ball heavy style of play west is often described like) as he does more of his work of post/face up isolations to drive or set up his jumper

West handles look good but he also seems careless at times losing sight of the field and being pickpocketed by blindsiding rivals somewhat worringly often. Although this is such limited sample i watched i dont wanna draw conclusions

I am also curipus what you think of the jumpshooting debate (what was oscar more efficient at than west to have the higher ts% when west is usually seen as the better shooter and inside scorer)

I think your descripition is sound, although West had moments in his career when he played a bit more off-ball. I agree that West was very Kobe-esque in his approach and people vastly underrate his midrange repertoire and slashing game very often. He's often seen as a typical white shooter, but he was more of a scorer than a shooter.

I would add that, in addition of his quickness and savy fakes, his high release point made him such a tough assignment to guard. With 6'4 frame, long arms and absurdly fast pull-up, it was incredibly hard to contest his shots. He was very Durant-esque in this regard, but he was a better ball-handler and quicker athlete.


About jumpshooting - I don't agree that West was a better shooter than Oscar. We have a limited footage to work with, but Oscar's shooting profile and his overall efficiency paints him as an incredibly efficient shooter. West took more long range shots (though the difference is often overstated), but I don't think he was a more efficient midrange shooter or that he has a higher volume. At least it's not clear from what we can work with.

[Stalwart]

I don't have a low opinion of the posters here. I have a low opinion of some of the analysis that happens here. I post here because I like to challenge and be challenged and sometimes posters here provide that.

Also, there are alot lurkers and passersbys that scroll through the PC Board including a lot of younger and more impressionable fans. I feel its important to be a voice of reason when you guys are putting up threads saying Reggie Miller is a top 20 player of all time, for example.

I know the thread you are talking about and it wasn't saying Reggie is top 20 all time. There was like one person who said he saw a possible argument for him being that high even though he didn't. There were other posters saying they had him top 35 or top 40. That's not a group of posters making threads about Reggie being top 20. Just be honest in what you say. That wasn't an example. It was hyperbole to try and make a point.

I used the extreme example to illustrate a point not to be dishonest. One poster was putting forth arguments for Reggie beng a top 20 player of all time and none of the PC regulars batted an eye. There were also other posters putting him in the top 25. And there were still others putting him in the top 35.

All of that is ridiculous. Several people pointed out that you guys were wildly overrating Reggie not just me.

[Stalwart]

Neither one of them were better than Kobe. Thats just your typical PC Board hipster take. Id put Jerry over Oscar though.

Why?

I shouldn't have used the term "better" as that is too subjective and not something you can really prove. Guys at that level are all incredible. What I should have said was that neither one has a case over Kobe all time in terms of career ranking. He's had more individual success and more team success than both of them. Better longevity. He put up comparable stats in a statistically supressed era. And in terms of impact and influence Kobe is probably a top 5 icon of all time.

There is just no path for West or Oscar over Kobe.

[70sFan]

I don't have a low opinion of the posters here. I have a low opinion of some of the analysis that happens here. I post here because I like to challenge and be challenged and sometimes posters here provide that.

Also, there are alot lurkers and passersbys that scroll through the PC Board including a lot of younger and more impressionable fans. I feel its important to be a voice of reason when you guys are putting up threads saying Reggie Miller is a top 20 player of all time, for example.

I know the thread you are talking about and it wasn't saying Reggie is top 20 all time. There was like one person who said he saw a possible argument for him being that high even though he didn't. There were other posters saying they had him top 35 or top 40. That's not a group of posters making threads about Reggie being top 20. Just be honest in what you say. That wasn't an example. It was hyperbole to try and make a point.

I used the extreme example to illustrate a point not to be dishonest. One poster was putting forth arguments for Reggie beng a top 20 player of all time and none of the PC regulars batted an eye. There were also other posters putting him in the top 25. And there were still others putting him in the top 35.

All of that is ridiculous. Several people pointed out that you guys were wildly overrating Reggie not just me.

So having Reggie top 35 is ridiculous now? I don't have him that high, but a lot of people can make a very reasonable arguments for him to be that high. I know that all you care about is accolades, but it's not the only (or the most) reasonable way to judge careers.

Ben Taylor has Reggie inside top 35. I have disagreement with Ben on a lot of levels, but calling his work ridiculous is actually ridiculous.

[coastalmarker99]

West flatout destroys Kobe when it comes to game sevens and elimination games along with performing in the NBA finals.


And we are not even accounting for blocks or Steals which West would have racked up a lot of.


Here are Jerry West's game seven averages

4- 5 W-L record

30.9 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

7.7 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.8 rpg)

6.8 APG (Regular season career average is 6.7 APG)

47.9 FG% (Regular season career average is 47.4 FG%)

TS% 54.3 Regular season career average is 54.9 TS%)


Here are Jerry West's elimination games averages

13 11 W-L record

29.3 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

6.4 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.8 rpg)

6.4 APG (Regular season career average is 6.7 APG)

55% TS (Regular season career average is 54.9 TS%)



Here are Jerry West's finals averages

30.5 PPG (Regular season career average is 27.0 ppg)

5.0 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.8 rpg)

5.6 APG (Regular season career average is 6.7 APG)

45.9 FG% (Regular season career average is 47.4 FG%)

53.3% TS (Regular season career average is 54.9 TS%)




Here are Kobe's averages across the board in-game sevens and elimination games.

Game sevens

22.2 PPG (Regular season career average is 25.0 ppg)

8.0 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.2 rpg)

5.0 APG (Regular season career average is 4.7 APG)

1.3 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.5 BPG)

1.0 SPG (Regular season career average is 1.4 SPG)

FG% 38.9% (Regular season career average is 44.7%)

FT% 67.3%(Regular season career average is 83.7%)


Elimination games
9 10 W-L record

22.3 PPG (Regular season career average is 25.0 ppg)

5.8 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.2 rpg)

3.5 APG (Regular season career average is 4.7 APG)

1.3 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.5 BPG)

1.3 SPG (Regular season career average is 1.4 SPG)

FG 44.0%(Regular season career average is 44.7%)

TS% 50.3 (Regular season career average is 55.0%)


Finals

25.3 PPG (Regular season career average is 25.0 ppg)

5.7 RPG (Regular season career average is 5.2 rpg)

5.1 APG (Regular season career average is 4.7 APG)

0,9 BPG (Regular season career average is 0.5 BPG)

1.8 SPG (Regular season career average is 1.4 SPG)

FG 41.2%(Regular season career average is 44.7%)

TS% 50.7 (Regular season career average is 55.0%)


The only real argument for ranking Kobe over West is him winning 5 rings to West's one.


But does anyone actually think that Kobe wins more rings than West had they swapped places?

As West was putting up MJ numbers and his teams despite that were still getting beaten by a dynasty that featured a top 5 GOAT player and 9 other HOFers during the 60s.

[70sFan]

Yeah, the idea that Jerry West has no case over Kobe is ridiculous, that's the right use of the word.

[Cavsfansince84]

I used the extreme example to illustrate a point not to be dishonest. One poster was putting forth arguments for Reggie beng a top 20 player of all time and none of the PC regulars batted an eye. There were also other posters putting him in the top 25. And there were still others putting him in the top 35.

All of that is ridiculous. Several people pointed out that you guys were wildly overrating Reggie not just me.

The way you framed it was dishonest though. Its also not our collective duty to argue against everything you view as ridiculous. That's your job. Most of the same posters in that thread voted in the last top 100 where Miller came in at 39. So that's more or less how the board views his career. Not top 20.

[wojoaderge]

Toss a coin for me

[Stalwart]

I know the thread you are talking about and it wasn't saying Reggie is top 20 all time. There was like one person who said he saw a possible argument for him being that high even though he didn't. There were other posters saying they had him top 35 or top 40. That's not a group of posters making threads about Reggie being top 20. Just be honest in what you say. That wasn't an example. It was hyperbole to try and make a point.

I used the extreme example to illustrate a point not to be dishonest. One poster was putting forth arguments for Reggie beng a top 20 player of all time and none of the PC regulars batted an eye. There were also other posters putting him in the top 25. And there were still others putting him in the top 35.

All of that is ridiculous. Several people pointed out that you guys were wildly overrating Reggie not just me.

So having Reggie top 35 is ridiculous now? I don't have him that high, but a lot of people can make a very reasonable arguments for him to be that high. I know that all you care about is accolades, but it's not the only (or the most) reasonable way to judge careers.

Ben Taylor has Reggie inside top 35. I have disagreement with Ben on a lot of levels, but calling his work ridiculous is actually ridiculous.

Yes, its ridiculous. I don't revere Ben Taylor the way you guys do. He's a theorist and a philosopher not some overarching authority on the game of basketball. Everytime I see one of you guys throw his name out like some trump card I have even less reverence for him.

Ive watched the Nba for over 30 years and have seen so many players better than Reggie Miller. Its not even close. And thats not even mentioning career and resume. If you bring those aspects into the equation(which you should) you would have a really tough time putting him higher than top 60.

[Stalwart]

I used the extreme example to illustrate a point not to be dishonest. One poster was putting forth arguments for Reggie beng a top 20 player of all time and none of the PC regulars batted an eye. There were also other posters putting him in the top 25. And there were still others putting him in the top 35.

All of that is ridiculous. Several people pointed out that you guys were wildly overrating Reggie not just me.

The way you framed it was dishonest though. Its also not our collective duty to argue against everything you view as ridiculous. That's your job. Most of the same posters in that thread voted in the last top 100 where Miller came in at 39. So that's more or less how the board views his career. Not top 20.

I think you're intentionally being disagreeable at this point. And who said it was anyones collective duty to respond to me? I certaintly didn't say that or suggest it. Thats a very dishonest thing to do.

Anyway, #39 is still ridiculous. PC posters are most likely relying on the analysis of professional theorists like Ben Taylor to come to that conclusion.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think you're intentionally being disagreeable at this point. And who said it was anyones collective duty to respond to me? I certaintly didn't say that or suggest it. Thats a very dishonest thing to do.

Anyway, #39 is still ridiculous. PC posters are most likely relying on the analysis of professional theorists like Ben Taylor to come to that conclusion.

Not to respond to you, to things you see posted that you don't like or agree with re someone saying they could come up with a way of having Reggie top 20(in a thread dedicated to the highest reasonable ranking for him) even though they wouldn't agree with it. Its just the way you seem to try and group up people who you don't agree with as though its some kind of cult on here that Ben Taylor is the high priest of. You never seem to want to consider that there's posters who have been following the game longer thann you have been and who have put in serious effort to utilizing analytical ways of trying to measure impact and things like that and who may not even give two ****'s what Ben Taylor has to say about any of it.
For you to sit there now and accuse me of being intentionally disagreeable is just so beyond the pale simply because I am pointing out your fabrications to justify the things you say and pass them off as fact. Maybe just get off your bb high hhorse for one minute and stop going into every discussion as though you hold the keys of bb knowledge that no one else could possibly be bringing anything beyond that to a discussion on here. That's what the board is meant to be imo. Not a place to just incessantly beat your eye test opinions against the wall of what goes beyond that but rather a way to try and objectively debate things.