Who's higher on your All Time List? Kevin McHale or Bob Pettit

[falcolombardi]

Pettit was in a fully integrated league. I mean look how diverse his Championship Hawks roster looked.

Love how you ignored my question.

Who were these black players who were banned from the NBA but are better than Bob Petit? You know any or you're just talking out your ass?

We don't know who they are. That's the point. A guy like Jackie Robinson would have been a better NBA player than Pettit if the NBA was integrated at the time he went pro.

Elgin Baylor is a superstar who is better than Pettit. He was thiiiiiiiiiiis close to not making it. He was not recruited coming out of High School. As luck would have it, one of his high school teammates happened to stumble on a small town college in Idaho. IDAHO. The coach let the HS teammate bring Elgin Baylor only if Elgin would play basketball and football for the college. Think about it, the great Elgin Baylor had to go all the way freakin middle of nowhere Idaho just to play college ball even though he was the best player in the country at the time. Just imagine how many black players didn't get that opportunity because the college coaches never went to Black high schools.

While this is a tragedy....it is neither pettit fault nor sometime that benefitted only him

Russel, wilt, oscar and other black stars also "benefitted" from playing in a less talented league that if basketball was fully integrated in the country.

Just because they are black doesnt mean the same argument doesnt apply to them

Also the idea that jackie robinson could easily have been a top 5 player in the nba (as there were only really 5 players clearly/likely better than pettit in the early 60's) if he wanted to be a basketball player is not somethingh i can agree with

You are saying he would be better than all those 100+ of black and white basketball athletes in the 60's nba pettit was better than just like nothingh

[Cavsfansince84]

We don't know who they are. That's the point. A guy like Jackie Robinson would have been a better NBA player than Pettit if the NBA was integrated at the time he went pro.

Elgin Baylor is a superstar who is better than Pettit. He was thiiiiiiiiiiis close to not making it. He was not recruited coming out of High School. As luck would have it, one of his high school teammates happened to stumble on a small town college in Idaho. IDAHO. The coach let the HS teammate bring Elgin Baylor only if Elgin would play basketball and football for the college. Think about it, the great Elgin Baylor had to go all the way freakin middle of nowhere Idaho just to play college ball even though he was the best player in the country at the time. Just imagine how many black players didn't get that opportunity because the college coaches never went to Black high schools.

I think he went to Seattle college. You are acting as though Pettit was just some tall stiff who could sort of shoot or something in this thread when he was top 5 from about 57-64(including an mvp/ring) and was putting up big ppg on among league best ts add while also being a strong rebounder throughout those years. Honestly it just seems like you hahve some big axe to grind with Pettit either on the basis of race or something else.

[prolific passer]

Pettit I believe has a higher ppg average against Russell than Wilt does. Russell even put him in his top 5-10 all time great players. Lenny Wilkens had no problem playing with Pettit for 5 years.

[eminence]

Lots of high jumpers seem like reasonable picks - Sotomayor and Sjoberg come to mind for having the requisite size.

Uwe Hohn for modern PF.

Leaping ability and height alone don't necessarily translate into basketball ability. Volleyball players can jump out of the gym, but like high jumpers, that's a skill specialized for their sport. It's possible that some would become good basketball players if they trained enough, but in most cases, they gravitated to other sports because those sports matched their abilities and temperament better.

Oh sure, I wouldn’t bet on any particular individuals, just tossing out a few names with the necesaary athleticism.

My point - humans existed with the necessary athleticism to play NBA basketball who didn’t get the chance due to where/when they were born (eg Sjoberg growing up in 70s Sweden - no realistic path to the NBA, or Siakams father from Cameroon who had 4 D1 sons).

[HeartBreakKid]

Baylor being greater all-time than Pettit is debatable. I'm not against the idea, but not dismissive of Pettit.

Baylor wasn't better than Bob nor greater. Even if we wanted to give Baylor a lot of credit they would have been about even, and were probably thought of peers in terms of talent. That guy is talking total nonsense, Jackie Robinson would have been a better basketball player than Bob Petit..?

Jackie Robinson wasn't even one of the best players in the sport he actually played. Just complete foolery. Andrew Wiggins would have been a better F1 driver than Max Verstappen if he grew up with the chance to race. It's just about as equally ridiculous of a statement.

[70sFan]

We don't know who they are. That's the point. A guy like Jackie Robinson would have been a better NBA player than Pettit if the NBA was integrated at the time he went pro.

Oh, so we're starting now racist argument that "black = better", right? Are you aware that black players existed in the NBA before Pettit was drafted? Jackie Robinson wasn't particulary good even at his own sport, somehow he'd be better than Bob Pettit, who was all-nba player in fully integrated league?

Elgin Baylor is a superstar who is better than Pettit.

That's not true, at their best they were comparable and Pettit has a better career than Elgin.

He was thiiiiiiiiiiis close to not making it. He was not recruited coming out of High School. As luck would have it, one of his high school teammates happened to stumble on a small town college in Idaho. IDAHO. The coach let the HS teammate bring Elgin Baylor only if Elgin would play basketball and football for the college. Think about it, the great Elgin Baylor had to go all the way freakin middle of nowhere Idaho just to play college ball even though he was the best player in the country at the time. Just imagine how many black players didn't get that opportunity because the college coaches never went to Black high schools.

I hope you are consistent and you don't rank Wilt, Oscar, Russell and Baylor high either. They played in the same league after all. Or were they fine because they were black?

[Owly]

(as there were only really 5 players clearly/likely better than pettit in the early 60's)

I'd cull that down to three otoh.

Would have to look properly, set out a specific time frame etc but whilst I think Baylor's stock may have dropped a little too much on here (again going otoh), in general and maybe this timeframe I'd say Pettit was slightly ahead or perhaps for this timeframe equal. Then West didn't get going as a superstar right out of the gates. I don't think I'd put either as clearly or likely better, especially if there's some room for "effectively even."

I'd say Robertson, Russell, Chamberlain.

[Gibson22]

There's no argument for McHale. Pettit was a generational player, the best player in the nba between mikan and russll eras and a top 5 player for all of his career. McHale was a very good player -elite post up player and also very good inside defender, and had a good midrange jumper - but he wasn't ever close to the caliber of the few real best players in the world, that wasn't his caliber. He also was all nba only once in his career.
D'uh, the talent pool and the competition level was much inferior compared to the 80s, yeah, that's also true for the 00s compared to the 80s (failing league before david stern) and to today compared to the 00s (a lot more kids gravitating towards basketball as we understood the damage that football does, the nba really opening up to foreign players and basketball evolving with golden state, 3 point shooting, the importance of switching, etc.) The eras argument can be a deciding factor between two similar level players, not between an mvp and an all star.

[LAL1947]

Surely this has to be Bob Petit?

That being said, Bob Petit is from well before my time and I want to show Kevin McHale some love. I really liked McHale's way of playing and thinking. He was not supposed to be as impactful as he was when you looked at his frame. He's also done a bang up job as an NBA media person and is always a pleasure to listen to, despite being a total Boston homer, lol.

[CharityStripe34]

I also enjoy McHale's game, as for a few years in the mid-late eighties he was really freakin' good. But Bob Pettit was one of the 3-4 greatest players in the league for just about a decade (and arguably its best player from 56-59).

[Stan]

We ever gonna find out who was the one who voted for McHale? Was it OP trying to make the poll more competitive?

[prolific passer]

I wouldn't say Jackie Robinson wasn't that good of a mlb player. He did win the first roy, a mvp, and a world series ring. Was basically the final piece for the Dodgers who became a dynasty in the NL during his time there. Weird how the Dodgers let him go before they moved to LA because he went to UCLA.
In all him and Pettit were pretty equal in terms of their success during their careers. Pettit almost beat the Wilt and Thurmond Warriors in the 64 wcf taking them to 7 games and all. Didn't have stable coaching due to the owner thinking coaching was overrated.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Petit is borderline Top 15 for me

[Cavsfansince84]

I wouldn't say Jackie Robinson wasn't that good of a mlb player. He did win the first roy, a mvp, and a world series ring. Was basically the final piece for the Dodgers who became a dynasty in the NL during his time there. Weird how the Dodgers let him go before they moved to LA because he went to UCLA.
In all him and Pettit were pretty equal in terms of their success during their careers. Pettit almost beat the Wilt and Thurmond Warriors in the 64 wcf taking them to 7 games and all. Didn't have stable coaching due to the owner thinking coaching was overrated.

Definitely agree there. There is a reason so many contemporaries considered him to be among the best bb players of his day and I don't think its just because of his role in integrating the sport. He was that good.

[colts18]

I wouldn't say Jackie Robinson wasn't that good of a mlb player. He did win the first roy, a mvp, and a world series ring. Was basically the final piece for the Dodgers who became a dynasty in the NL during his time there. Weird how the Dodgers let him go before they moved to LA because he went to UCLA.
In all him and Pettit were pretty equal in terms of their success during their careers. Pettit almost beat the Wilt and Thurmond Warriors in the 64 wcf taking them to 7 games and all. Didn't have stable coaching due to the owner thinking coaching was overrated.

Definitely agree there. There is a reason so many contemporaries considered him to be among the best bb players of his day and I don't think its just because of his role in integrating the sport. He was that good.

Jackie Robinson played 4 sports in college and baseball was his worst sport. When he played pro basketball in the late 40's, he was known as a better basketball player than baseball. His pro team actually beat George Mikan's team too. There are many players like him who never made the NBA in that era because the NBA had segregation, quotas on black players, and many colleges didn't even have black players until the late 1960s.

[Cavsfansince84]

Jackie Robinson played 4 sports in college and baseball was his worst sport. When he played pro basketball in the late 40's, he was known as a better basketball player than baseball. His pro team actually beat George Mikan's team too. There are many players like him who never made the NBA in that era because the NBA had segregation, quotas on black players, and many colleges didn't even have black players until the late 1960s.

Well its quite possible he would have chosen baseball anyhow unless you know of some quote where he specificallyy said he preferred basketball. I mean plenty of great athletes are good to great in more than one sport but basically have to choose one to be pro at. That's not something new when it comes to sports.

[prolific passer]

I wouldn't say Jackie Robinson wasn't that good of a mlb player. He did win the first roy, a mvp, and a world series ring. Was basically the final piece for the Dodgers who became a dynasty in the NL during his time there. Weird how the Dodgers let him go before they moved to LA because he went to UCLA.
In all him and Pettit were pretty equal in terms of their success during their careers. Pettit almost beat the Wilt and Thurmond Warriors in the 64 wcf taking them to 7 games and all. Didn't have stable coaching due to the owner thinking coaching was overrated.

Definitely agree there. There is a reason so many contemporaries considered him to be among the best bb players of his day and I don't think its just because of his role in integrating the sport. He was that good.

Jackie Robinson played 4 sports in college and baseball was his worst sport. When he played pro basketball in the late 40's, he was known as a better basketball player than baseball. His pro team actually beat George Mikan's team too. There are many players like him who never made the NBA in that era because the NBA had segregation, quotas on black players, and many colleges didn't even have black players until the late 1960s.

Jackie could have went to pro football earlier than mlb. The Browns integrated like a year or so before the Dodgers brought Jackie up. The NFL had a quota of just a few black players per team in the 60s why the AFL took anybody they can get no matter what the race is so they can compete with the nfl. MLB was the top sport of them all till the 60s when the first superbowl was held. Which is why Jackie chose it.

[Cavsfansince84]

Jackie could have went to pro football earlier than mlb. The Browns integrated like a year or so before the Dodgers brought Jackie up. The NFL had a quota of just a few black players per team in the 60s why the AFL took anybody they can get no matter what the race is so they can compete with the nfl. MLB was the top sport of them all till the 60s when the first superbowl was held. Which is why Jackie chose it.

Ya, I don't think that there's much doubt that if given the choice he would have chosen mlb over the nba or nfl. mlb was by far the biggest of the pro sports leagues up until the era of the SB when the nfl started to catch up and I'd imagine paying much better.

[70sFan]

Bob Pettit didn't play in the 1940s, he is a year older than Bill Russell...

[eminence]

Related note - I know the World Professional Basketball Tournament was integrated through its history - but does anyone know of any basketball top league integrations prior to the NBLs 1943 attempt?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Professional_Basketball_Tournament

The Rens/Trotters/Bears being the black winning teams as far as I know.