Trade Ideas

[JonFromVA]

Is anyone advocating for LeVert? That's a little different than pointing out he's a multi-skilled player.

I'm certainly not advocating for him, we simply haven't seen enough of him, but I can see what Altman was hoping when he brought him in. It's just that he's not in Ricky's class as a ballhandler or a passer so he's not going to waltz between all the trees and pick apart a defense.

But hey, I never wrote off Collin and I'm hopeful Isaac is ready to take another step. Short of bringing in another savant like Ricky, it takes time to integrate players.

I mean you just went into the vault for LeVert's one time I scored 51 deep track Terrance Ross style... so some might consider that advocating?

He was just being humorous...

Given some of the opinions on LeVert, I seriously think some people should watch his career game and see his full skillset.

[mcfly1204]

Nope, stats are spot on.

Come on man, look more closely...

4.8 attempts on 32.3%.

Edit: you're literally combining his 74 total games in Indy across 2 seasons? Oof, just for him to still not even hit the efficiency mark... Yeah, probably woulda stuck with the original example I offered of the 19-20 season lol

Considering I was literally noting what his numbers were in Indiana... yeah. I mean, I could have locked into a partial season, because that would make sense?

[JujitsuFlip]

Come on man, look more closely...

4.8 attempts on 32.3%.

Edit: you're literally combining his 74 total games in Indy across 2 seasons? Oof, just for him to still not even hit the efficiency mark... Yeah, probably woulda stuck with the original example I offered of the 19-20 season lol

Considering I was literally noting what his numbers were in Indiana... yeah. I mean, I could have locked into a partial season, because that would make sense?

You went from talking about his 19 games with the Cavs to then referencing 2 seasons of basketball lol

Oh well, its a moot point, the guy is a below average shooter from deep, a negative defender, and not a facilitator aka an overall terrible fit on the Cavs.

[JonFromVA]

4.8 attempts on 32.3%.

Edit: you're literally combining his 74 total games in Indy across 2 seasons? Oof, just for him to still not even hit the efficiency mark... Yeah, probably woulda stuck with the original example I offered of the 19-20 season lol

Considering I was literally noting what his numbers were in Indiana... yeah. I mean, I could have locked into a partial season, because that would make sense?

You went from talking about his 19 games with the Cavs to then referencing 2 seasons of basketball lol

Oh well, its a moot point, the guy is a below average shooter from deep, a negative defender, and not a facilitator aka an overall terrible fit on the Cavs.

If our only concern is going to be past performance, it's more a matter of the competition unless we're perfectly filling in the holes in those other player's game.

So, for instance, no matter how well Okoro or Agbaji shoot & defend, is DG going to trust them to handle the ball when he's doubled? That's a problem they create in our offense unless someone else fills it, but it's projection to suggest Evan might just do that - not past performance.

[JujitsuFlip]

Considering I was literally noting what his numbers were in Indiana... yeah. I mean, I could have locked into a partial season, because that would make sense?

You went from talking about his 19 games with the Cavs to then referencing 2 seasons of basketball lol

Oh well, its a moot point, the guy is a below average shooter from deep, a negative defender, and not a facilitator aka an overall terrible fit on the Cavs.

If our only concern is going to be past performance, it's more a matter of the competition unless we're perfectly filling in the holes in those other player's game.

So, for instance, no matter how well Okoro or Agbaji shoot & defend, is DG going to trust them to handle the ball when he's doubled? That's a problem they create in our offense unless someone else fills it, but it's projection to suggest Evan might just do that - not past performance.

I mean, that's not something I would really worry about. Cavs issue isn't their offense, it's that they go away from the offense.

I have no idea what the stats are but I doubt DG is nearly as good of an iso scorer as Kyrie and LeBron are/were. Run the pick and roll, run the pick and pop, run the ghost screens, run the off ball screens, man movement, ball movement, back cuts, lobs, pin downs etc.

Cavs do not need a steady diet of DG/LeVert/Sexton/Rubio going iso, I understand iso will happen but this isn't the Kobe Lakers or MJ Bulls, Cavs can't just ditch the offense for the final 12 to 18 minutes of games and expect to be a winning ball club.

[JonFromVA]

You went from talking about his 19 games with the Cavs to then referencing 2 seasons of basketball lol

Oh well, its a moot point, the guy is a below average shooter from deep, a negative defender, and not a facilitator aka an overall terrible fit on the Cavs.

If our only concern is going to be past performance, it's more a matter of the competition unless we're perfectly filling in the holes in those other player's game.

So, for instance, no matter how well Okoro or Agbaji shoot & defend, is DG going to trust them to handle the ball when he's doubled? That's a problem they create in our offense unless someone else fills it, but it's projection to suggest Evan might just do that - not past performance.

I mean, that's not something I would really worry about. Cavs issue isn't their offense, it's that they go away from the offense.

I have no idea what the stats are but I doubt DG is nearly as good of an iso scorer as Kyrie and LeBron are/were. Run the pick and roll, run the pick and pop, run the ghost screens, run the off ball screens, man movement, ball movement, back cuts, lobs, pin downs etc.

Cavs do not need a steady diet of DG/LeVert/Sexton/Rubio going iso, I understand iso will happen but this isn't the Kobe Lakers or MJ Bulls, Cavs can't just ditch the offense for the final 12 to 18 minutes of games and expect to be a winning ball club.

One of the best offenses the league has seen relied on Draymond Green to make something happen when Steph was trapped. He's not iso'ing. It's not about iso'ing. It's about Darius Garland ascending to DEFCON 1 as far as opposing defenses are concerned and making them pay when they refuse to give him even an inch of daylight coming off a screen.

[JujitsuFlip]

If our only concern is going to be past performance, it's more a matter of the competition unless we're perfectly filling in the holes in those other player's game.

So, for instance, no matter how well Okoro or Agbaji shoot & defend, is DG going to trust them to handle the ball when he's doubled? That's a problem they create in our offense unless someone else fills it, but it's projection to suggest Evan might just do that - not past performance.

I mean, that's not something I would really worry about. Cavs issue isn't their offense, it's that they go away from the offense.

I have no idea what the stats are but I doubt DG is nearly as good of an iso scorer as Kyrie and LeBron are/were. Run the pick and roll, run the pick and pop, run the ghost screens, run the off ball screens, man movement, ball movement, back cuts, lobs, pin downs etc.

Cavs do not need a steady diet of DG/LeVert/Sexton/Rubio going iso, I understand iso will happen but this isn't the Kobe Lakers or MJ Bulls, Cavs can't just ditch the offense for the final 12 to 18 minutes of games and expect to be a winning ball club.

One of the best offenses the league has seen relied on Draymond Green to make something happen when Steph was trapped. He's not iso'ing. It's not about iso'ing. It's about Darius Garland ascending to DEFCON 1 as far as opposing defenses are concerned and making them pay when they refuse to give him even an inch of daylight coming off a screen.

Nobody is trapping Steph for the first 82 games of the season or if they do, it's very rare. Dray runs the Warriors offense, just like Joker does with the Nuggets. They're the defacto point guards, they're not the release valve.

Dray doesn't coincidentally average more APG in the Kerr era than Steph, the offense is built around Dray's passing and Steph and Klay's off ball movement because they're great at catch and shoot.

I bet you Steph runs around off ball about as much as Rip did, in his day, if the miles were tracked.

I'm not nor are the Cavs basing fit on who can handle the ball if Garland gets trapped lol

Cavs are looking at who can knock down open shots, because DG is a phenomenal passer and who can cover for DG on the perimeter on defense, because he's short and small.

Cavs do not need a Draymond, they have better versions of him in DG and Rubio, hence why they both just inked multi year deals. Cavs need the Steph and Klay archetypes who can actually hit the shots that our creators generate.

[mcfly1204]

^^^That is exactly why someone like Agbaji is terribly interesting.

[toooskies]

It's why Rubio was interesting, honestly. The combination wasn't merely just two great shooters (and often one other good shooter), it's two great shooters and two elite ballhandlers so that there are multiple pathways to finding buckets.

[jbk1234]

It's why Rubio was interesting, honestly. The combination wasn't merely just two great shooters (and often one other good shooter), it's two great shooters and two elite ballhandlers so that there are multiple pathways to finding buckets.

It was two players with elite PG skills, one of whom was capable of guarding most twos.

[mcfly1204]

It's why Rubio was interesting, honestly. The combination wasn't merely just two great shooters (and often one other good shooter), it's two great shooters and two elite ballhandlers so that there are multiple pathways to finding buckets.

It was two players with elite PG skills, one of whom was capable of guarding most twos.

Bingo, which is also the conudrum when evaluating Sexton and Levert.

[JonFromVA]

I mean, that's not something I would really worry about. Cavs issue isn't their offense, it's that they go away from the offense.

I have no idea what the stats are but I doubt DG is nearly as good of an iso scorer as Kyrie and LeBron are/were. Run the pick and roll, run the pick and pop, run the ghost screens, run the off ball screens, man movement, ball movement, back cuts, lobs, pin downs etc.

Cavs do not need a steady diet of DG/LeVert/Sexton/Rubio going iso, I understand iso will happen but this isn't the Kobe Lakers or MJ Bulls, Cavs can't just ditch the offense for the final 12 to 18 minutes of games and expect to be a winning ball club.

One of the best offenses the league has seen relied on Draymond Green to make something happen when Steph was trapped. He's not iso'ing. It's not about iso'ing. It's about Darius Garland ascending to DEFCON 1 as far as opposing defenses are concerned and making them pay when they refuse to give him even an inch of daylight coming off a screen.

Nobody is trapping Steph for the first 82 games of the season or if they do, it's very rare. Dray runs the Warriors offense, just like Joker does with the Nuggets. They're the defacto point guards, they're not the release valve.

Dray doesn't coincidentally average more APG in the Kerr era than Steph, the offense is built around Dray's passing and Steph and Klay's off ball movement because they're great at catch and shoot.

I bet you Steph runs around off ball about as much as Rip did, in his day, if the miles were tracked.

I'm not nor are the Cavs basing fit on who can handle the ball if Garland gets trapped lol

Cavs are looking at who can knock down open shots, because DG is a phenomenal passer and who can cover for DG on the perimeter on defense, because he's short and small.

Cavs do not need a Draymond, they have better versions of him in DG and Rubio, hence why they both just inked multi year deals. Cavs need the Steph and Klay archetypes who can actually hit the shots that our creators generate.

Yes, shooting and defense are important - right at the top of the list, but it's not the only thing we need. Keep in mind, one of our goals is going to be unlocking Darius both on the ball and off the ball. He's likely the best shooter on the team no matter who we bring in.

[toooskies]

One of the best offenses the league has seen relied on Draymond Green to make something happen when Steph was trapped. He's not iso'ing. It's not about iso'ing. It's about Darius Garland ascending to DEFCON 1 as far as opposing defenses are concerned and making them pay when they refuse to give him even an inch of daylight coming off a screen.

Nobody is trapping Steph for the first 82 games of the season or if they do, it's very rare. Dray runs the Warriors offense, just like Joker does with the Nuggets. They're the defacto point guards, they're not the release valve.

Dray doesn't coincidentally average more APG in the Kerr era than Steph, the offense is built around Dray's passing and Steph and Klay's off ball movement because they're great at catch and shoot.

I bet you Steph runs around off ball about as much as Rip did, in his day, if the miles were tracked.

I'm not nor are the Cavs basing fit on who can handle the ball if Garland gets trapped lol

Cavs are looking at who can knock down open shots, because DG is a phenomenal passer and who can cover for DG on the perimeter on defense, because he's short and small.

Cavs do not need a Draymond, they have better versions of him in DG and Rubio, hence why they both just inked multi year deals. Cavs need the Steph and Klay archetypes who can actually hit the shots that our creators generate.

Yes, shooting and defense are important - right at the top of the list, but it's not the only thing we need. Keep in mind, one of our goals is going to be unlocking Darius both on the ball and off the ball. He's likely the best shooter on the team no matter who we bring in.

The question is whether Sexton or Levert (or Mobley) are good enough facilitators to find him off-ball or if it takes a Rubio-class player.

[JonFromVA]

It's why Rubio was interesting, honestly. The combination wasn't merely just two great shooters (and often one other good shooter), it's two great shooters and two elite ballhandlers so that there are multiple pathways to finding buckets.

It was two players with elite PG skills, one of whom was capable of guarding most twos.

Yes, we were blessed that Ricky's shooting was red hot for a stretch, but he's more of a LeVert level shooter IMO. Someone who can create his own shot and can take tough shots but will typically end up closer to 33% - maybe 35% if you're lucky.

Ricky's shooting cooled down in December before the injury, but we were still playing well.

I'm not expecting him to start at SG, even if he does come back at 100%. I believe like with Kevin, reduced minutes is our best bet to keep him healthy and productive and I don't believe it's a coincidence he got hurt when JBB started leaning so hard on him.

But again, part of why the pairing worked is because Ricky took some of the load off Darius and also unlocked his shooting. To whatever extent our other candidates with ball/passing skills can do the same, the better shot they will have at winning the starting spot.

[jbk1234]

Nobody is trapping Steph for the first 82 games of the season or if they do, it's very rare. Dray runs the Warriors offense, just like Joker does with the Nuggets. They're the defacto point guards, they're not the release valve.

Dray doesn't coincidentally average more APG in the Kerr era than Steph, the offense is built around Dray's passing and Steph and Klay's off ball movement because they're great at catch and shoot.

I bet you Steph runs around off ball about as much as Rip did, in his day, if the miles were tracked.

I'm not nor are the Cavs basing fit on who can handle the ball if Garland gets trapped lol

Cavs are looking at who can knock down open shots, because DG is a phenomenal passer and who can cover for DG on the perimeter on defense, because he's short and small.

Cavs do not need a Draymond, they have better versions of him in DG and Rubio, hence why they both just inked multi year deals. Cavs need the Steph and Klay archetypes who can actually hit the shots that our creators generate.

Yes, shooting and defense are important - right at the top of the list, but it's not the only thing we need. Keep in mind, one of our goals is going to be unlocking Darius both on the ball and off the ball. He's likely the best shooter on the team no matter who we bring in.

The question is whether Sexton or Levert (or Mobley) are good enough facilitators to find him off-ball or if it takes a Rubio-class player.

That's not the only question and there's a rather huge gap between Sexton and Rubio in terms of facilitating for others. There are plenty of players who would fall between them.

[JonFromVA]

Nobody is trapping Steph for the first 82 games of the season or if they do, it's very rare. Dray runs the Warriors offense, just like Joker does with the Nuggets. They're the defacto point guards, they're not the release valve.

Dray doesn't coincidentally average more APG in the Kerr era than Steph, the offense is built around Dray's passing and Steph and Klay's off ball movement because they're great at catch and shoot.

I bet you Steph runs around off ball about as much as Rip did, in his day, if the miles were tracked.

I'm not nor are the Cavs basing fit on who can handle the ball if Garland gets trapped lol

Cavs are looking at who can knock down open shots, because DG is a phenomenal passer and who can cover for DG on the perimeter on defense, because he's short and small.

Cavs do not need a Draymond, they have better versions of him in DG and Rubio, hence why they both just inked multi year deals. Cavs need the Steph and Klay archetypes who can actually hit the shots that our creators generate.

Yes, shooting and defense are important - right at the top of the list, but it's not the only thing we need. Keep in mind, one of our goals is going to be unlocking Darius both on the ball and off the ball. He's likely the best shooter on the team no matter who we bring in.

The question is whether Sexton or Levert (or Mobley) are good enough facilitators to find him off-ball or if it takes a Rubio-class player.

Ricky is a savant, he doesn't need an offense, he doesn't need anything other than the ball and he will find teammates and create.

The outlook is very different depending on whether we're able to create an offensive system that creates space for our players or if we need to rely on "random offense", ISO, and individual talent to create that space.

Fingers crossed on that Luke Walton hiring ....

[toooskies]

Yes, shooting and defense are important - right at the top of the list, but it's not the only thing we need. Keep in mind, one of our goals is going to be unlocking Darius both on the ball and off the ball. He's likely the best shooter on the team no matter who we bring in.

The question is whether Sexton or Levert (or Mobley) are good enough facilitators to find him off-ball or if it takes a Rubio-class player.

That's not the only question and there's a rather huge gap between Sexton and Rubio in terms of facilitating for others. There are plenty of players who would fall between them.

Most of them are point guards or star-level players. The subset that can defend a position other than PG and can also be had for less than the price of Dejounte Murray? Pretty small. Looking for an option that's on our timeline, in their mid-20s or younger? Smaller still. And can stretch the floor? And is available or likely to come available? And on a reasonably-priced contract with multiple years left?

[JujitsuFlip]

One of the best offenses the league has seen relied on Draymond Green to make something happen when Steph was trapped. He's not iso'ing. It's not about iso'ing. It's about Darius Garland ascending to DEFCON 1 as far as opposing defenses are concerned and making them pay when they refuse to give him even an inch of daylight coming off a screen.

Nobody is trapping Steph for the first 82 games of the season or if they do, it's very rare. Dray runs the Warriors offense, just like Joker does with the Nuggets. They're the defacto point guards, they're not the release valve.

Dray doesn't coincidentally average more APG in the Kerr era than Steph, the offense is built around Dray's passing and Steph and Klay's off ball movement because they're great at catch and shoot.

I bet you Steph runs around off ball about as much as Rip did, in his day, if the miles were tracked.

I'm not nor are the Cavs basing fit on who can handle the ball if Garland gets trapped lol

Cavs are looking at who can knock down open shots, because DG is a phenomenal passer and who can cover for DG on the perimeter on defense, because he's short and small.

Cavs do not need a Draymond, they have better versions of him in DG and Rubio, hence why they both just inked multi year deals. Cavs need the Steph and Klay archetypes who can actually hit the shots that our creators generate.

Yes, shooting and defense are important - right at the top of the list, but it's not the only thing we need. Keep in mind, one of our goals is going to be unlocking Darius both on the ball and off the ball. He's likely the best shooter on the team no matter who we bring in.

It's not the only thing the team needs but it is what DG needs next to him for a bulk of his minutes. He's spending a lot of time with Mobley (25%), Allen (10%), and Lauri (35.8%) guys who can't really shoot from outside or not consistently at least.

Garland is the best shooter on the team or at least 1a/1b with Love but until Rubio gets back or Neto proves otherwise, Garland is going to have to handle a lionshare of the on ball minutes and that's okay, because he thrives there.

To circle back to your other point, I looked it up and Garland does get doubled 10th most in the league, however, he is good out of those situations. If a free throw is 1.3 points per possession and 1.0 is considered a good PPP... When Garland is doubled once every 4 possessions, he's creating 1.09 PPP. Could being doubled all the time contribute to his high turnovers, probably. The one thing the metric can't show me is what part of the floor he is being doubled in and at what point in the game he is being doubled.

At any rate, I say all that, to say, DG and the Cavs did just fine when he was doubled last season, no need to jeopardize the entire unit just to put a guy next to him who can't shoot or defend, because he might be a slightly better ball handler (not even creator) than other options.

[JonFromVA]

Nobody is trapping Steph for the first 82 games of the season or if they do, it's very rare. Dray runs the Warriors offense, just like Joker does with the Nuggets. They're the defacto point guards, they're not the release valve.

Dray doesn't coincidentally average more APG in the Kerr era than Steph, the offense is built around Dray's passing and Steph and Klay's off ball movement because they're great at catch and shoot.

I bet you Steph runs around off ball about as much as Rip did, in his day, if the miles were tracked.

I'm not nor are the Cavs basing fit on who can handle the ball if Garland gets trapped lol

Cavs are looking at who can knock down open shots, because DG is a phenomenal passer and who can cover for DG on the perimeter on defense, because he's short and small.

Cavs do not need a Draymond, they have better versions of him in DG and Rubio, hence why they both just inked multi year deals. Cavs need the Steph and Klay archetypes who can actually hit the shots that our creators generate.

Yes, shooting and defense are important - right at the top of the list, but it's not the only thing we need. Keep in mind, one of our goals is going to be unlocking Darius both on the ball and off the ball. He's likely the best shooter on the team no matter who we bring in.

It's not the only thing the team needs but it is what DG needs next to him for a bulk of his minutes. He's spending a lot of time with Mobley (25%), Allen (10%), and Lauri (35.8%) guys who can't really shoot from outside or not consistently at least.

Garland is the best shooter on the team or at least 1a/1b with Love but until Rubio gets back or Neto proves otherwise, Garland is going to have to handle a lionshare of the on ball minutes and that's okay, because he thrives there.

To circle back to your other point, I looked it up and Garland does get doubled 10th most in the league, however, he is good out of those situations. If a free throw is 1.3 points per possession and 1.0 is considered a good PPP... When Garland is doubled once every 4 possessions, he's creating 1.09 PPP. Could being doubled all the time contribute to his high turnovers, probably. The one thing the metric can't show me is what part of the floor he is being doubled in and at what point in the game he is being doubled.

At any rate, I say all that, to say, DG and the Cavs did just fine when he was doubled last season, no need to jeopardize the entire unit just to put a guy next to him who can't shoot or defend, because he might be a slightly better ball handler (not even creator) than other options.

I think your talent appraisal is way off, but LeVert is a veteran too so I'm just hoping others get a fair look and JBB doesn't just name him and stick with him.

[JujitsuFlip]

Yes, shooting and defense are important - right at the top of the list, but it's not the only thing we need. Keep in mind, one of our goals is going to be unlocking Darius both on the ball and off the ball. He's likely the best shooter on the team no matter who we bring in.

It's not the only thing the team needs but it is what DG needs next to him for a bulk of his minutes. He's spending a lot of time with Mobley (25%), Allen (10%), and Lauri (35.8%) guys who can't really shoot from outside or not consistently at least.

Garland is the best shooter on the team or at least 1a/1b with Love but until Rubio gets back or Neto proves otherwise, Garland is going to have to handle a lionshare of the on ball minutes and that's okay, because he thrives there.

To circle back to your other point, I looked it up and Garland does get doubled 10th most in the league, however, he is good out of those situations. If a free throw is 1.3 points per possession and 1.0 is considered a good PPP... When Garland is doubled once every 4 possessions, he's creating 1.09 PPP. Could being doubled all the time contribute to his high turnovers, probably. The one thing the metric can't show me is what part of the floor he is being doubled in and at what point in the game he is being doubled.

At any rate, I say all that, to say, DG and the Cavs did just fine when he was doubled last season, no need to jeopardize the entire unit just to put a guy next to him who can't shoot or defend, because he might be a slightly better ball handler (not even creator) than other options.

I think your talent appraisal is way off, but LeVert is a veteran too so I'm just hoping others get a fair look and JBB doesn't just name him and stick with him.

I mean, it's not my talent evaluation, it's just the stats lol