#10 Best Defensive Shooting Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position project

[Colbinii]

Crazy how reality has such an anti-Kobe bias…

Apparently if you aren't a fan of Kobe then you are a Timmy Stan.

Its like saying if you don't like Almond Milk you must like Cow Milk. But wait, what if I told you about the terrific Cashew Milk or my favorite [Environmentally friendly] Oat Milk! No? I must only be a Cow Milk Stan because I don't like Almond Milk?

Make it make sense!

[70sFan]

Kobe Bryant

(I don't understand why he isn't already on the list, but I'm new to this thread.)

Four reasons...

1) Timmy fans, trying to make it seem like Duncan was Top 5 all-time by diminishing Kobe. These will also make it sound like KG, Dirk or Wade were better than or equal to Kobe, to try and help with that illusion. Look at the history of the "Peaks project", where Duncan is the only one who keeps climbing up the ranks as time goes by, even after he retired... while Kobe keeps going down, and not always to players who came after him.

2) Lebron fans, trying to create distance between him and Kobe so they can pretend Lebron was on the same level as MJ.

3) Anti-Kobe peeps, who still haven't gotten over the beatings he gave their teams and favorite players.

4) A few anti-Lakers peeps.

The lengths some of them will go to diminish players they don't like or to build up their favored players never ceases to astound me. I mean if we all want to write creative narratives we can, but we really shouldn't.

So you don't see any other alternative? That's just not possible right?

[LAL1947]

Crazy how reality has such an anti-Kobe bias…

Apparently if you aren't a fan of Kobe then you are a Timmy Stan.

Its like saying if you don't like Almond Milk you must like Cow Milk. But wait, what if I told you about the terrific Cashew Milk or my favorite [Environmentally friendly] Oat Milk! No? I must only be a Cow Milk Stan because I don't like Almond Milk?

Make it make sense!

Okay, I'll try to make it make sense... you want your Almond Milk (Lebron) and Oat Milk (Timmy) to be GOAT Milk. Just not gonna happen.

The way y'all use retrospective statistical evaluations to spin your webs and weaves of narratives is highly entertaining though, especially for someone who can see right through most of them.

[penbeast0]

Kobe Bryant

(I don't understand why he isn't already on the list, but I'm new to this thread.)

Four reasons...

1) Timmy fans, trying to make it seem like Duncan was Top 5 all-time by diminishing Kobe. These will also make it sound like KG, Dirk or Wade were better than or equal to Kobe, to try and help with that illusion. Look at the history of the "Peaks project", where Duncan is the only one who keeps climbing up the ranks as time goes by, even after he retired... while Kobe keeps going down, and not always to players who came after him.

2) Lebron fans, trying to create distance between him and Kobe so they can pretend Lebron was on the same level as MJ.

3) Anti-Kobe peeps, who still haven't gotten over the beatings he gave their teams and favorite players.

4) A few anti-Lakers peeps.

The lengths some of them will go to diminish players they don't like or to build up their favored players never ceases to astound me. I mean if we all want to write creative narratives we can, but we really shouldn't.

. . . (5) People with no agenda who actually watched Kobe play defense for over a decade and realize that he had stretches of great defensive play and stretches where he wasn't focused on that end; much like Michael Jordan. A player like Tony Allen was always focused in on the defensive end because that was why he was in the NBA. If you make a list of wings who averaged 25 ppg game or better for their career and rank them by their defense, then you should see a debate about whether Jordan, Kobe, or LeBron was the greatest superstar scoring wing defensively.

[Frosty]

Kobe Bryant

(I don't understand why he isn't already on the list, but I'm new to this thread.)

Four reasons...

1) Timmy fans, trying to make it seem like Duncan was Top 5 all-time by diminishing Kobe. These will also make it sound like KG, Dirk or Wade were better than or equal to Kobe, to try and help with that illusion. Look at the history of the "Peaks project", where Duncan is the only one who keeps climbing up the ranks as time goes by, even after he retired... while Kobe keeps going down, and not always to players who came after him.

2) Lebron fans, trying to create distance between him and Kobe so they can pretend Lebron was on the same level as MJ.

3) Anti-Kobe peeps, who still haven't gotten over the beatings he gave their teams and favorite players.

4) A few anti-Lakers peeps.

The lengths some of them will go to diminish players they don't like or to build up their favored players never ceases to astound me. I mean if we all want to write creative narratives we can, but we really shouldn't.

. . . (5) People with no agenda who actually watched Kobe play defense for over a decade and realize that he had stretches of great defensive play and stretches where he wasn't focused on that end; much like Michael Jordan.

I was with you until you had to tie it to MJ. There was no comparison as to being focused on defense. Sure there is no way a player can keep up the effort on offense and defense the entire game but Jordan rarely lost 'focus'. That was something Kobe did throughout almost his entire career. Phil pointed it out in 2004 that it had be going on for years then. Tex was complaining about the same defensive sins in 2007. By 2013 everyone was calling him out. It wasn't just Kobe's focus it was his disinterest in playing proper team defense. He wouldn't stay with his man, preferring to take another team members assignment and force them to switch, or his player would just roam for open shots because Kobe paid no attention (that's why they said they couldn't play him on Ray Allen). He's hang out in no man's land hoping for steals.

You wouldn't hear the coaches complaining that Jordan didn't want to play good fundamental defense. If Ray Allen burned MJ once it would light a fire. Kobe not so much.

[penbeast0]

I'm talking about Kobe's prime when he was generally playing good defense, not later in his career when he was not (though still scoring). He was a good defender when the team was competitive.
Jordan used to look for ways to feel disrespected to try to fire himself up but on a Tuesday night in Washington, he wouldn't be locked in with any consistency except, of course, for the LaBradford Smith game.

[AdagioPace]

Kobe Bryant

(I don't understand why he isn't already on the list, but I'm new to this thread.)

Four reasons...

1) Timmy fans, trying to make it seem like Duncan was Top 5 all-time by diminishing Kobe. These will also make it sound like KG, Dirk or Wade were better than or equal to Kobe, to try and help with that illusion. Look at the history of the "Peaks project", where Duncan is the only one who keeps climbing up the ranks as time goes by, even after he retired... while Kobe keeps going down, and not always to players who came after him.

2) Lebron fans, trying to create distance between him and Kobe so they can pretend Lebron was on the same level as MJ.

3) Anti-Kobe peeps, who still haven't gotten over the beatings he gave their teams and favorite players.

4) A few anti-Lakers peeps.

The lengths some of them will go to diminish players they don't like or to build up their favored players never ceases to astound me. I mean if we all want to write creative narratives we can, but we really shouldn't.

this is easily explainable by the fact that players at the level of Curry, Jokic, Giannis keep joining this league (you could also argue for Harden and Durant). it's not about unjust climbing-up or -down. More players like those will come in the future. TD's 3 years peak is more special than Kobe's, hence Kobe is on a less stable position. Maybe Jokic will surpass both in the next 5 years (by winning a title), who knows.

if you think this forum has an anti-Lakers anti-Kobe agenda, what are you still doing here? Maybe you like your purposeless crusade. i think there are plenty of lakers forums around

[AEnigma]

If only we could go back to 2012, before all this evil anti-Kobe agenda started and people were not caught up in recency bias over 2014 Duncan and post-injury Kobe. Then Duncan would only be… six spots higher in the peaks project and two spots higher in the career project.

[Owly]

I'm talking about Kobe's prime when he was generally playing good defense, not later in his career when he was not (though still scoring). He was a good defender when the team was competitive.
Jordan used to look for ways to feel disrespected to try to fire himself up but on a Tuesday night in Washington, he wouldn't be locked in with any consistency except, of course, for the LaBradford Smith game.

Heard mixed review on Jordan's night to night intensity defensively, may depend on the year?

Regardless this is about defense yes? Smith didn't get locked down the on the second night of the back-to-back after scoring 37. He got 15 points in 25 minutes (5 of 12 from the field but got to the line 5 times. .528 TS%. 1 turnover). It was that MJ scored 48 on offense.


More generally it isn't just those really down years at the end ... so whilst I don't know when you perceive Kobe's prime to be but there's times where the Lakers were. Otoh impact-y stuff (mainly 97-14 RAPM) has Kobe as circa average (maybe a little above given position) for career and from memory and second hand what I've heard it's mostly pretty good as Fro-be and inconsistent average to bad from, maybe 2003. Outlier spike up in 2010 and then '07, '08 okay at a very quick glance. So better when competitive and yeah he had a load to carry and that's relevant but my understanding of the data informed consensus (and my limited grasp overview) seems to be that you couldn't always justify that he was "good" when the team was competitive.

[Gibson22]

Who is this kobe guy?

[kcktiny]

People with no agenda who actually watched Kobe play defense for over a decade and realize that he had stretches of great defensive play and stretches where he wasn't focused on that end; much like Michael Jordan.

Jordan used to look for ways to feel disrespected to try to fire himself up but on a Tuesday night in Washington, he wouldn't be locked in with any consistency

This is nonsense.

I was with you until you had to tie it to MJ.

There was no comparison as to being focused on defense. Sure there is no way a player can keep up the effort on offense and defense the entire game but Jordan rarely lost 'focus'.

This is absolutely dead on.

I wrote this in the "top 10 defenders" thread:

A player is a 9 time all-defensive 1st team nominee. How many other players named 9 times, or even just 4-5 times all-D 1st team, do "...people have arguments..." against their defense being top rate?

The six years the Bulls won titles - 9091, 9192, 9293, 9596, 9697, 9798 - Chicago was the second best team on defense (102.1 pts/100poss allowed) in the league next to only the Knicks. Jordan played 1/7 to 1/6 of the team's total minutes played during that time.

Those 6 seasons PFs Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman combined played 3400+ less minutes than did Jordan.

Those 6 seasons Cs Bill Cartwright, Luc Longley, Stacey King, and Will Perdue combined played 2200+ less minutes than did Jordan.

Players who clearly were not excellent (or even very good) defenders like B.J. Armstrong, Toni Kukoc, John Paxson, Steve Kerr, Jud Buechler, and Craig Hodges combined played between 1/5 to 1/4 of the team's total minutes played those 6 years.

Yet the Bulls were still the 2nd best team defensively over those 6 years.

Jordan was all-D 1st team all 6 years, Pippens 5 of the 6.

The statement that "...plenty of people have arguments against Jordan on defense..." is absolutely laughable.

Having watched Jordan his entire career I don't think there is any question he is the definitive gold standard for a great defensive guard, and that has nothing to do whatsoever with what he did on offense.

Is he the best defensive guard of all-time? He clearly has a case for being called as such.

His first 11 seasons where he played major minutes (1984-85, 1986-87 to 1992-93, 1995-96 to 1997-98) he had 2239 steals and 794 blocked shots. That's 400+ more steals and 200+ more blocked shots than any other guard those seasons.

He averaged 204 steals and 72 blocked shots a year over those 11 seasons.

In the history of the NBA do you know how many other times a guard got 200+ steals with 70+ blocked shots in a single season? Just 2 other times - that's it, since 1973-74, almost 50 years. Ron Harper in 1986-87 and Clyde Drexler that same year. And no guard has done so since 1990-91, in some 30+ years.

Oh - and those same 11 seasons Jordan had over 1,000 more defensive rebounds than any other guard. He grabbed 4156. Next most was Drexler with just 3070.

He literally did it all.

Jordan is considered by many the greatest player ever, and assuredly the greatest backcourt player ever, because he excelled at both offense and defense.

[LAL1947]

Spoiler:

People with no agenda who actually watched Kobe play defense for over a decade and realize that he had stretches of great defensive play and stretches where he wasn't focused on that end; much like Michael Jordan.

Jordan used to look for ways to feel disrespected to try to fire himself up but on a Tuesday night in Washington, he wouldn't be locked in with any consistency

This is nonsense.

I was with you until you had to tie it to MJ.

There was no comparison as to being focused on defense. Sure there is no way a player can keep up the effort on offense and defense the entire game but Jordan rarely lost 'focus'.

This is absolutely dead on.

I wrote this in the "top 10 defenders" thread:

A player is a 9 time all-defensive 1st team nominee. How many other players named 9 times, or even just 4-5 times all-D 1st team, do "...people have arguments..." against their defense being top rate?

The six years the Bulls won titles - 9091, 9192, 9293, 9596, 9697, 9798 - Chicago was the second best team on defense (102.1 pts/100poss allowed) in the league next to only the Knicks. Jordan played 1/7 to 1/6 of the team's total minutes played during that time.

Those 6 seasons PFs Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman combined played 3400+ less minutes than did Jordan.

Those 6 seasons Cs Bill Cartwright, Luc Longley, Stacey King, and Will Perdue combined played 2200+ less minutes than did Jordan.

Players who clearly were not excellent (or even very good) defenders like B.J. Armstrong, Toni Kukoc, John Paxson, Steve Kerr, Jud Buechler, and Craig Hodges combined played between 1/5 to 1/4 of the team's total minutes played those 6 years.

Yet the Bulls were still the 2nd best team defensively over those 6 years.

Jordan was all-D 1st team all 6 years, Pippens 5 of the 6.

The statement that "...plenty of people have arguments against Jordan on defense..." is absolutely laughable.

Having watched Jordan his entire career I don't think there is any question he is the definitive gold standard for a great defensive guard, and that has nothing to do whatsoever with what he did on offense.

Is he the best defensive guard of all-time? He clearly has a case for being called as such.

His first 11 seasons where he played major minutes (1984-85, 1986-87 to 1992-93, 1995-96 to 1997-98) he had 2239 steals and 794 blocked shots. That's 400+ more steals and 200+ more blocked shots than any other guard those seasons.

He averaged 204 steals and 72 blocked shots a year over those 11 seasons.

In the history of the NBA do you know how many other times a guard got 200+ steals with 70+ blocked shots in a single season? Just 2 other times - that's it, since 1973-74, almost 50 years. Ron Harper in 1986-87 and Clyde Drexler that same year. And no guard has done so since 1990-91, in some 30+ years.

Oh - and those same 11 seasons Jordan had over 1,000 more defensive rebounds than any other guard. He grabbed 4156. Next most was Drexler with just 3070.

He literally did it all.

Jordan is considered by many the greatest player ever, and assuredly the greatest backcourt player ever, because he excelled at both offense and defense.

The whole post is well argued! I'm only quoting this last portion for brevity.

Some people (i.e., Lebron fans, including those who are interested in making statistical arguments for having him #1 all-time) seem to be trying to downplay Jordan's ability and/or effort as a defender.

They are also doing the same with Kobe, in order to make a false case for Duncan being better. You'll find that most of those who argue Lebron is #1 on all-time list are also those who argue Duncan should be #5, there's a connection.

[AEnigma]

Similarly, an astute observer will find that most of those who argue the earth is billions of years old are also those who argue for the theory of evolution.

[LAL1947]

Similarly, an astute observer will find that most of those who argue the earth is billions of years old are also those who argue for the theory of evolution.

I think Duncan fans would have been more likely to argue the Earth was flat.

[70sFan]

Similarly, an astute observer will find that most of those who argue the earth is billions of years old are also those who argue for the theory of evolution.

I think Duncan fans would have been more likely to argue the Earth was flat.

Is that really the level of discussion you want to have?

[falcolombardi]

Spoiler:

People with no agenda who actually watched Kobe play defense for over a decade and realize that he had stretches of great defensive play and stretches where he wasn't focused on that end; much like Michael Jordan.

Jordan used to look for ways to feel disrespected to try to fire himself up but on a Tuesday night in Washington, he wouldn't be locked in with any consistency

This is nonsense.

I was with you until you had to tie it to MJ.

There was no comparison as to being focused on defense. Sure there is no way a player can keep up the effort on offense and defense the entire game but Jordan rarely lost 'focus'.

This is absolutely dead on.

I wrote this in the "top 10 defenders" thread:

A player is a 9 time all-defensive 1st team nominee. How many other players named 9 times, or even just 4-5 times all-D 1st team, do "...people have arguments..." against their defense being top rate?

The six years the Bulls won titles - 9091, 9192, 9293, 9596, 9697, 9798 - Chicago was the second best team on defense (102.1 pts/100poss allowed) in the league next to only the Knicks. Jordan played 1/7 to 1/6 of the team's total minutes played during that time.

Those 6 seasons PFs Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman combined played 3400+ less minutes than did Jordan.

Those 6 seasons Cs Bill Cartwright, Luc Longley, Stacey King, and Will Perdue combined played 2200+ less minutes than did Jordan.

Players who clearly were not excellent (or even very good) defenders like B.J. Armstrong, Toni Kukoc, John Paxson, Steve Kerr, Jud Buechler, and Craig Hodges combined played between 1/5 to 1/4 of the team's total minutes played those 6 years.

Yet the Bulls were still the 2nd best team defensively over those 6 years.

Jordan was all-D 1st team all 6 years, Pippens 5 of the 6.

The statement that "...plenty of people have arguments against Jordan on defense..." is absolutely laughable.

Having watched Jordan his entire career I don't think there is any question he is the definitive gold standard for a great defensive guard, and that has nothing to do whatsoever with what he did on offense.

Is he the best defensive guard of all-time? He clearly has a case for being called as such.

His first 11 seasons where he played major minutes (1984-85, 1986-87 to 1992-93, 1995-96 to 1997-98) he had 2239 steals and 794 blocked shots. That's 400+ more steals and 200+ more blocked shots than any other guard those seasons.

He averaged 204 steals and 72 blocked shots a year over those 11 seasons.

In the history of the NBA do you know how many other times a guard got 200+ steals with 70+ blocked shots in a single season? Just 2 other times - that's it, since 1973-74, almost 50 years. Ron Harper in 1986-87 and Clyde Drexler that same year. And no guard has done so since 1990-91, in some 30+ years.

Oh - and those same 11 seasons Jordan had over 1,000 more defensive rebounds than any other guard. He grabbed 4156. Next most was Drexler with just 3070.

He literally did it all.

Jordan is considered by many the greatest player ever, and assuredly the greatest backcourt player ever, because he excelled at both offense and defense.

The whole post is well argued! I'm only quoting this last portion for brevity.

Some people (i.e., Lebron fans, including those who are interested in making statistical arguments for having him #1 all-time) seem to be trying to downplay Jordan's ability and/or effort as a defender.

They are also doing the same with Kobe, in order to make a false case for Duncan being better. You'll find that most of those who argue Lebron is #1 on all-time list are also those who argue Duncan should be #5, there's a connection.

Jesus christ dude, not everyone is in a conspiracy against your favorite players

[AEnigma]

Similarly, an astute observer will find that most of those who argue the earth is billions of years old are also those who argue for the theory of evolution.

I think Duncan fans would have been more likely to argue the Earth was flat.

Yeah Duncan fans notoriously hate data, yet another mystery solved.

[LAL1947]

Similarly, an astute observer will find that most of those who argue the earth is billions of years old are also those who argue for the theory of evolution.

I think Duncan fans would have been more likely to argue the Earth was flat.

Yeah Duncan fans notoriously hate data, yet another mystery solved.

Or perhaps... the type of retrospective statistical evaluation that some Duncan fans use... is just like when Flat-Earthers of ancient times used the data they had at the time to come up with the theory that the Earth was flat and then stuck with it. They did not consider that they may not know everything there is to know about the wonders of the universe, which is kind of similar to how they ignore the depth of Kobe's basketball talents compared to Duncan's.

It's a matter of perspective. Everyone likes to relate to the heroes in a movie or show, even when they might not be.

[70sFan]

I think Duncan fans would have been more likely to argue the Earth was flat.

Yeah Duncan fans notoriously hate data, yet another mystery solved.

Or perhaps... the type of retrospective statistical evaluation that some Duncan fans use... is just like when Flat-Earthers of ancient times used the data they had at the time to come up with the theory that the Earth was flat and then stuck with it. They did not consider that they may not know everything there is to know about the wonders of the universe, which is kind of similar to how they ignore the depth of Kobe's basketball talents compared to Duncan's.

It's a matter of perspective. Everyone likes to relate to the heroes in a movie or show, even when they might not be.

This analogy is horrible on so many accounts, that's insulting for me as a physicist...

[Jaivl]

Yeah Duncan fans notoriously hate data, yet another mystery solved.

Or perhaps... the type of retrospective statistical evaluation that some Duncan fans use... is just like when Flat-Earthers of ancient times used the data they had at the time to come up with the theory that the Earth was flat and then stuck with it. They did not consider that they may not know everything there is to know about the wonders of the universe, which is kind of similar to how they ignore the depth of Kobe's basketball talents compared to Duncan's.

It's a matter of perspective. Everyone likes to relate to the heroes in a movie or show, even when they might not be.

This analogy is horrible on so many accounts, that's insulting for me as a physicist...

Shut up, Duncan stan! The analogy works perfectly, but you lack the nuance and brains to comprehend it, you numbskull.

Forget the plus/minus, film study and other NERD stuff, let me do you a favour as I advance basketball science 50 years: in 2072, the only stat that matters (other than WINNING) is the WTF.

WET TOUGH FADEAWAYS