AEnigma wrote:Proxy wrote:16. 1977 Bill Walton (Explained in previous threads).
17. 2020 Anthony Davis??? I'd say I've been pretty convinced by UnibrowDavis' explanations in previous threads(could link if needed), I still think alot of his conclusions are pretty extreme like the KD offensive value comparison but upon revisiting his playoff run I I think not only was he not really optimized offensively(honestly he may not have been all that much for full seasons since like 2015, and his value wasn't optimized in the 2020 RS defensively and you could see the massive difference in Lakers' scheme from the RS vs the PS), but also the majority of things that made it great were pretty replicable to me(so much reasons for his dominance besides shooting luck honestly where he underperformed from true mid range if anything - the interior scoring, some of the self creation, the off ball stuff and relentless opportunity hunting where is truly all-time in that regard have all been pretty consistent things to me and why he looks like a general PS riser in his prime in the small sample). Offers so much value even with his secondary skills and allows for so much scheme versatility.
HMs: Drob, Jokić, Kobe, Wade, KD, Erving, Dirk(i've expressed some of my concerns with pretty much all of them in much earlier threads, less on Dirk though and don't have much time rn i'd probably go 08 Kobe, 17 KD, or 22 Jokić for 4th on my ballot though) - i'm not super confident in arguing for Mikan or Hawkins based on what I know about them right now.
Other players i've brought up: If I viewed players like Kobe or KD comfortably as all-defense type players at their peak I would probably vote them higher, but for right now I think Jokić's offensive value has lapped both of theirs and I don't see either as being more than a pretty marginal positive defensively in their peak seasons. Wade and Erving have a lot more scalability and portability concerns for me(looking absurd in some circumstances and having pretty predestrian value signals in others) and i'm not *entirely* sure they added more value in general either, I could definitely buy arguments for either to be voted in already though. Drob's offense against elite defenses(not just in a PS setting - it was a trend in the RS as well) is still pretty concerning to me and on the very low end of resilience for players considered this tier, his scoring drops off tremendously and it's not like he has the flexibility of someone like KG whose offense I believe is still so additive even when his scoring value gets blunted. We know he boasts insane value signals in his post-peak in the PS but i've talked about why I look at those with a grain of salt when thinking about his actual value in much earlier threads(collinearity), i'm not entirely how sure how resilient his defense was relative to his contemporaries but in the games i've studied he seemed pretty fine there. Dirk's argument at this point kinda feels like a worse version of Jokić's, I think his era allowed him to still be better defensively and keeps them in a similar tier for me as players, but the offensive gap is more distinct to me right now.
Hi. First, I saw you were reacting to this thread, but you have not voted yet, so partially using this as a reminder.
The main subject of this comment though is asking about Kawhi. We agree on Walton, we generally agree on Davis (I am not voting for him quite yet but I have him on the same level as the Post-Walton guys for whom I am voting), and we seem to generally agree on Kobe and Erving. So I am surprised to see you mention Durant as potentially the next name for you, and then several other contenders, but then not Kawhi. For me they peaked in the same year, and I was more impressed by what I saw from Kawhi in 2017, 2019, and 2021 (the last three years they both played). Is it the postseason injury in 2017? If so, where would you consider 2019? I know his passing gets criticised a bit, so if injuries are not an issue, is 2021 more of an option for you? Mostly just curious. When people have similar votes to me, I find it more interesting on which players the disparities start to appear.
Kawhi is a really weird player to me in that I feel there are essentially four very different versions that could all realistically get taken right now and that i'd all have somewhat comfortably in my top 30 peaks.
I think the only other wing that has *this* much weirdness in his prime that has been discussed is probably Kobe(or Erving), and if you combined all these versions into one he might even be looking at a top 10, maybe nearing top 5 peak ever even, but they all have a few things holding them a little back from me voting them in already(though on further inspection the last few days there are some versions I would actually consider to be in the tier of players I listed but I just didn't have much time to mention him)
2016: Possibly the best non-big defensive peak ever(IMO right there with Scottie and Bobby as my top 3 choices). Still a pretty superb scorer in this season albeit lower volume than proceeding years, and without the self creation or passing abilities we see from him later. I don't really regard this Kawhi as being much more than all-star/low all-nba ish level value offensively but the defense keeps him in these convos.
2017: Still a clear all-defense level defender in a playoffs setting, but also a very clear, large step down to me from 2016 and not a player I would really consider to be in the very upper echelon of wing defenders anymore based on his performance(maybe partially due to offensive load/motor reasons?? But then there's probably some trade-off there because I don't think he could max out on both ends at once). I found myself less impressed by his off-ball defense mainly but he still had his reputation and warped the way offenses played to avoid him. Still, way better self creation and what i'd call potentially a top 10-15 scoring peak OAT(also his turnover economy is so underdiscussed).
The playoffs sample size does give me a bit of concern - He eviscerated the Grizzlies(they weren't 100% healthy but how much that would affect anything isn't known), came back down to earth against Houston, and went back to smoking the Warriors through game 1. Beyond scoring though, i'm just not a very big fan of this version as a passer still, and don't think his leveraged his scoring gravity as well to create for others as I believe some of his contemporaries were able to. He did add some value by being such an efficient late clock bailout option when things fizzled out for the Spurs though(with expected points lower). I'd say this version probably ranked 2nd defensively and 3rd offensively still.
2019: I think this version was a bit less balanced than 2019 was(offense/defense wise), he does have his largest playoff sample yet of prime play and was very impressive facing a multitude of strong defenses. Otoh I also feel this year was the sign of a trend of his body beginning to wear down in deeper playoff runs, maybe because of that injury in 2017. I'm not sure how to balance this season with the load management and perceived decline in performance in deeper runs, by the end of the playoffs Kawhi gained my respect as a passer/playmaker and did a phenomenal job floor raising for the Raptors offensively, but his defense at this point was also pretty questionable from my recollection in the finals, while his hot scoring trailed off a bit as well by that point. I don't really believe this version to be a worse scorer than before, and probably adds more value as a playmaker, but his defense at this point didn't strike me as really exceptional like before. Still probably his best offensive version and worst defensive year up to this point.
2021: This year continued on with the improvements as a passer starting in 2019 and probably would be my preferred year for him overall.
Like, this version of Kawhi's handle was TIGHT - watching him in the playoffs all I could think of was that I was watching Kobe, his rim pressure might have trailed off a little bit but I thought he could basically get where ever he wanted in the half court and his scoring against the Mavs and against the Jazz early on were absurd with the Clippers offense was basically STEAMROLLING them. With him and PG on the court in the RS they had like a +17 net rating as well and they were my pick to come out the West. Otoh I also wouldn't call his defense all *that* exceptional anymore only because of consistency, but all-defense level. Still the clear best version of him offensively and maybe his 2nd worst defensive year out of these(which is still a bit better of a defensive player than any wing/forward i'm considering besides maybe Erving and 06 Wade) but I do wonder how much the spacing played a factor seeing they were probably the best spaced team ever.
The offensive improvements are valuable to me and I tend to value them over the defense waning off because it allows other players to give a bit more on defense than i'd say vice versa. Though when watching any version of Kawhi compared to these other wings I still just don't get the impression he is
1. As good of a passer as these other wings(I think he's distinctly worse, actually, even compared to Durant though the gap shrinks the further you go, mainly after 2019). There is still so much value in hyper efficient scoring even without this(like Amare was mentioned before as a mega scorer not adding too much creation value or passing), especially when you're someone like him that could be argued as a t10 scoring peak ever based on his production, maybe even the best of this group, but I think it's very difficult to reach the very upper echelon of offensive playmakers without combining it with higher levels as a playmaker and I think Kobe, Wade, and KD maybe have(my biggest problem with 2017 Kawhi mainly), not sure on Erving.
2. That he has the same level of scoring gravity(at least to Kobe and Durant), I don't think he really demands the same attention quite at all, - rim pressure is probably biggest thing to me when comparing him to Erving/Wade and I don't think he had the same attention pretty much everywhere like Kobe(and Durant) basically did to where they got constantly swarmed throughout their primes in the playoffs.
3. That he leveraged his scoring gravity as well as any of these players to create advantages for others. I have criticized Durant for this in earlier threads and one of the biggest problems I have with him alongside is poor processing speed is his seemingly inability to find a consistent balance in scoring and playmaking(I think this is a problem with Kawhi, and Kobe to a lesser degree as well fwiw), but even in his case with the other things i've observed above, he has the ability of more frequently being able to play the 4/5. Alot of the value in that is what made Dirk such a potent offensive player despite his passing warts, and someone I wouldn't rule Durant as being clearly better than despite them having some similarities in their arguments(KD still primarily a 3/4, not a 4/5).
^I'm not sure all this satisfied your question but I wanted some time to briefly touch up on Kawhi cuz I never really did before.
Again, he is now someone i'd consider to be somewhere up here but he also still just isn't someone that immediately comes to mind for me for players i'd say are just outside of the top 12 or so peaks like the ones I mentioned before were.
For Durant specifically when comparing him to what i'd call the best version of Kawhi I feel there is still a a pretty distinct overall offensive gap, as I consider them similar enough as scorers(I prefer Durant probably for being more efficient in more areas). As well as that the defensive gap isn't as pronounced as it would be when picking Kawhi years like 2016 or 2017(still also a *very* distinct gap in value, but smaller with KD's positional versatility letting him play more interior defense oriented positions and not bleeding TOO much there at the height of his powers IMO). A combined peaks Kawhi would honestly blow him out the water though, I feel we'll prpbably disagree on the Kawhi Vs KD stance in the end but anyways let me know any disagreements you have with anything i've said.
I haven't voted yet tbh because i'm struggling to rank my top 8 next players to put someone last on my ballot(probably between Erving, Robinson, Kobe, Dirk, Wade, Paul, Durant, and Kawhi - Moses, Charles, Karl, Ewing, Nash, and Tmac probably after them if I don't fold them in by the time they're up)
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