replace stockton with prime isiah. do they beat the bulls

[garrick]

That Jazz team was pretty weak and made it to the finals after the decline of the Western conference powerhouses like Seattle, Phoenix and Houston in the mid 90's.

They would have had to have had major upgrades on their roster besides Stockton and Malone in order to beat the prime Bulls if you ask me.

Stockton was a solid PG but he was never a huge scoring threat and Hornacek was a good SG but also similar to Stockton wasn't going to explode on offense.

That Jazz team beat Hakeem/Barkley/Drexler, Duncan/Robinson, Shaq/Kobe/Van Exel/Jones.

Hakeem Barkley and Drexler were close to retirement at that time and the Lakers still hadn't hit their peak yet since Kobe was still very young and Shaq had just recently joined the Lakers.

[HEAT33]

Nah Bulls still win, maybe if you swap horny for Dumas and a prime Lambieer then Jazz might win…… maybe but they would be the favorites at least

[toodarkmark]

Are you adding Joe Dumars, Bill Laimbeer, Dennis Rodman and Vinnie Johnson too? Because that's why the Pistons won those titles.

[Antinomy]

Zeke whipped Jordan’s ass 3 years in a row & only lost in 91 because the team had broken down + injuries.

Jazz were horrible outside of Stockton & Malone, so Zeke alone wouldn’t swing it.

Maybe if I’m allowed to swap out Hornacek for Joe Dumars too.

Pistons did like laimbeer and Mahorn. Not Thomas alone. See my breakdown above.

I think having KARL MALONE makes up the difference.

[Antinomy]

Jordan shot .481 from the field vs. Detroit in the playoffs (22 games), for 30.0 points, 6.7 rebounds, 6.1 assists.
Jordan shot .487 from the field and 33.4 points in his playoff career, and 6.4 rebounds, 5.7 assists.
Not a big difference, considering that Detroit were supposed to be the best at defending Jordan.
And I'm sure if we look at every team Jordan faced in the playoffs, we'll find some that he did worse than 30ppg and 48% shooting.
Also Jordan didn't have a big series in 1991 when Chicago beat Detroit 4-0, he scored 29.8 points, 5.3 rebounds, 7.0 assists.

People ignore the fact that Pippen destroyed the Pistons in 91.

Scottie averaged more points, rebounds, steals & blocks than anybody on the Pistons.

In fact, he led BOTH TEAMS in those categories, except points (led by Jordan) & assists (which he was 3rd).

22.0 points, 7.8 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 3.0 steals, 2.0 blocks.

[SelfishPlayer]

Jordan shot .481 from the field vs. Detroit in the playoffs (22 games), for 30.0 points, 6.7 rebounds, 6.1 assists.
Jordan shot .487 from the field and 33.4 points in his playoff career, and 6.4 rebounds, 5.7 assists.
Not a big difference, considering that Detroit were supposed to be the best at defending Jordan.
And I'm sure if we look at every team Jordan faced in the playoffs, we'll find some that he did worse than 30ppg and 48% shooting.
Also Jordan didn't have a big series in 1991 when Chicago beat Detroit 4-0, he scored 29.8 points, 5.3 rebounds, 7.0 assists.

People ignore the fact that Pippen destroyed the Pistons in 91.

Scottie averaged more points, rebounds, steals & blocks than anybody on the Pistons.

In fact, he led BOTH TEAMS in those categories, except points (led by Jordan) & assists (which he was 3rd).

22.0 points, 7.8 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 3.0 steals, 2.0 blocks.

The Bad Boy Pistons were an 80s team. The 90s we're about the Bulls. The Pistons defense did best against MJ in the 80s forcing him to improve.

[Antinomy]

Jordan shot .481 from the field vs. Detroit in the playoffs (22 games), for 30.0 points, 6.7 rebounds, 6.1 assists.
Jordan shot .487 from the field and 33.4 points in his playoff career, and 6.4 rebounds, 5.7 assists.
Not a big difference, considering that Detroit were supposed to be the best at defending Jordan.
And I'm sure if we look at every team Jordan faced in the playoffs, we'll find some that he did worse than 30ppg and 48% shooting.
Also Jordan didn't have a big series in 1991 when Chicago beat Detroit 4-0, he scored 29.8 points, 5.3 rebounds, 7.0 assists.

People ignore the fact that Pippen destroyed the Pistons in 91.

Scottie averaged more points, rebounds, steals & blocks than anybody on the Pistons.

In fact, he led BOTH TEAMS in those categories, except points (led by Jordan) & assists (which he was 3rd).

22.0 points, 7.8 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 3.0 steals, 2.0 blocks.

The Bad Boy Pistons were an 80s team. The 90s we're about the Bulls. The Pistons defense did best against MJ in the 80s forcing him to improve.

The 90s were about the best teams & players in the 80s aging out or getting injured, coinciding with Pippen becoming a superstar impact player — opening the door for Jordan to win.

Titles are a team accomplishment. Jordan didn’t win anything until his team got better.

[Egg Nog]

Nah. Jordan was unbeatable in the playoffs. No way a guy like Isiah Thomas could ever take down MJ.

[oldncreaky]

IMO Isiah's personal peak was around 1984-86, including three 1st team all-NBA seasons, but little playoff success.

A lot of the reason behind the Piston's playoff success in the late 80's boiled down to Zeke stepping back to allow Dumars and Vinnie to step forward -- at least one of the three guards was bound to break out in each game. Success was built on the stars, particularly Zeke, sacrificing stats and honors (like all-NBA) in favor of team success.

The Pistons won a single playoff series with Zeke at his peak before Dumars joined the team. So I voted "I dunno" because who knows what a peak Zeke would do with a team as good as the late 90's Jazz.

[SelfishPlayer]

People ignore the fact that Pippen destroyed the Pistons in 91.

Scottie averaged more points, rebounds, steals & blocks than anybody on the Pistons.

In fact, he led BOTH TEAMS in those categories, except points (led by Jordan) & assists (which he was 3rd).

22.0 points, 7.8 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 3.0 steals, 2.0 blocks.

The Bad Boy Pistons were an 80s team. The 90s we're about the Bulls. The Pistons defense did best against MJ in the 80s forcing him to improve.

The 90s were about the best teams & players in the 80s aging out or getting injured, coinciding with Pippen becoming a superstar impact player — opening the door for Jordan to win.

Titles are a team accomplishment. Jordan didn’t win anything until his team got better.

That is second at best to the Bulls winning six titles in the 90s.

[cam24thomas]

People ignore the fact that Pippen destroyed the Pistons in 91.

Scottie averaged more points, rebounds, steals & blocks than anybody on the Pistons.

In fact, he led BOTH TEAMS in those categories, except points (led by Jordan) & assists (which he was 3rd).

22.0 points, 7.8 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 3.0 steals, 2.0 blocks.

The Bad Boy Pistons were an 80s team. The 90s we're about the Bulls. The Pistons defense did best against MJ in the 80s forcing him to improve.

The 90s were about the best teams & players in the 80s aging out or getting injured, coinciding with Pippen becoming a superstar impact player — opening the door for Jordan to win.

Titles are a team accomplishment. Jordan didn’t win anything until his team got better.

And Pippen would never have become a superstar if he didn't practice against Jordan everyday

[SelfishPlayer]

The Bad Boy Pistons were an 80s team. The 90s we're about the Bulls. The Pistons defense did best against MJ in the 80s forcing him to improve.

The 90s were about the best teams & players in the 80s aging out or getting injured, coinciding with Pippen becoming a superstar impact player — opening the door for Jordan to win.

Titles are a team accomplishment. Jordan didn’t win anything until his team got better.

And Pippen would never have become a superstar if he didn't practice against Jordan everyday

Why? Scottie Pippen was the #5 overall pick. Top 5 picks are supposed to be superstars.

[Uncle Mxy]

I have to wonder how Isiah would've kicked Utah's ass into excellence. Most of you are missing what the big difference between Isiah and Stockton. Isiah would've torn hearts out and/or backstabbed any lame-o players who weren't 100%. He was a stone-cold assassin, the leader from his rookie season on, not some bench rotation player. He'd have either lit a fire under Ostertag or lit him ON fire, for example. He'd have paired well with Jerry Sloan.

[SelfishPlayer]

Utah would have two NBA MVPs with the addition of Zeke.

[cam24thomas]

The 90s were about the best teams & players in the 80s aging out or getting injured, coinciding with Pippen becoming a superstar impact player — opening the door for Jordan to win.

Titles are a team accomplishment. Jordan didn’t win anything until his team got better.

And Pippen would never have become a superstar if he didn't practice against Jordan everyday

Why? Scottie Pippen was the #5 overall pick. Top 5 picks are supposed to be superstars.

Not in most drafts.
Plus don't you think practicing against Jordan everyday would make you a far better player offensively and defensively than if you didn't?

[SelfishPlayer]

And Pippen would never have become a superstar if he didn't practice against Jordan everyday

Why? Scottie Pippen was the #5 overall pick. Top 5 picks are supposed to be superstars.

Not in most drafts.
Plus don't you think practicing against Jordan everyday would make you a far better player offensively and defensively than if you didn't?

My opinion doesn't matter. Scottie Pippen was a top 5 pick. He was supposed to be a superstar. He had his best seasons when he DIDN'T PRACTICE AGAINST JORDAN EVERYDAY! when Jordan got out of the way the Bulls were still winners and Scottie performed like a top 5 pick.

[CallMeKahn]

If they did not win with Stockton why the fk would they win with Isaiah?

Stockton was still All-NBA in those years, so I don't see where a prime Zeke helps them.

Great points. There's nothing prime Isiah Thomas could do that John Stockton couldn't.... Right?

Yeah. One, Stockton was arguably a better defender and distributor and, two, a general lack of talent around him, Hornacek and Malone were issues because Larry was a notorious cheap ass in those years.

You want to call Isiah a better player, you can make a good argument for that. But he doesn't change the equation for Utah from 96 to 98.

[Optms]

That Jazz team was pretty weak and made it to the finals after the decline of the Western conference powerhouses like Seattle, Phoenix and Houston in the mid 90's.

They would have had to have had major upgrades on their roster besides Stockton and Malone in order to beat the prime Bulls if you ask me.

Stockton was a solid PG but he was never a huge scoring threat and Hornacek was a good SG but also similar to Stockton wasn't going to explode on offense.

That Jazz team was led by 2 first ballot Hall of famers and one first ballot hall of fame coach.

After being a top 3 seed for like a decade, and continuing to still be a playoff team well into the 2000s. If that is a weak team, what is your definition of a strong team? Just the Bulls?

[BenoUdrihFTL]

I'm gonna say Utah doesn't make the 1997 finals with Stockton replaced by Zeke. Stockton was Utah's best player in the WCF vs Houston where he went for 21 and 10 on 65% TS, including the game winning 3 to close the series. Stockton was also strong in the Finals putting up 15 and 9 on 61% TS. The assists were low by his standard but his teammates simply couldn't hit shots: Malone/Hornacek/Russell combined to shoot for 99 for 239 (41%)

1998 might've been a different story tho. This was when Sloan really started cutting Stockton's mins and it extended into the postseason (went from 37 mpg in '97 PS to 30 in '98), and Stockton's FGA/gm dipped all the way down to 8.2 in the '97 PS. Prime Zeke's higher volume would've helped here but I'm not sure if it would've been enough to tilt the Finals as he was never particularly efficient vs Chicago

Instead of replacing Stockton with Zeke I actually think Utah would've been much better off replacing Hornacek with Dumars in both seasons. Hornacek put up 12 ppg on 52% TS in the '97 Finals followed by 11 ppg on 50% TS in '98. Not great. Meanwhile prime Dumars peaked at 20 ppg on 58% TS vs Chicago in the '90 ECF (although admittedly he was pretty bad in '88, '89 and '91)

[God Squad]

I think if they have him in his '17 prime they would have better offensive power against them, but he would be too much of a defensive liability imo.

Theres Isiah and Isaiah. I know, confusing. But no one cares about Boston Isaiah, they're talking about Zeke.