replace stockton with prime isiah. do they beat the bulls

[dhsilv2]

Thomas wasn't half the player. He was a massively worse defender. Worse shooter. Worse passer. Just all around a worse athlete!

Isaiah Thomas was a much better player than John Stockton.

Isaiah Thomas's teams won in the post season against Larry Bird, Magic and Michael Jordan....and while the Bad Boy Pistons were badass.....Dumars and Zeke were the only two somewhat superstar players.

[spoiler]John Stockton led teams that choked in the playoffs for nearly 20 years. 1997 and 1998 were anomalies.
The biggest reason the Jazz would normally underachieve in the post season was that Stockton would get dominated by the other teams opposing point guard.
It happened all the time.

John Stockton was great at hitting a wide open jumper...but he could not keep the opposing defense honest with his offensive abilities. He could not hit consistently hit an off the dribble jumper, or go to his left hand.

If the Utah Jazz had a point guard that could score like Nash, Chris Paul, Steph Curry, or Isaiah Thomas they could have beaten the Bulls at least once.[/b]

Much better. Stockton didn't become a player anybody feared, until after Isaiah retired. Utah was never even a contender until Stockton had already played in the league 10 years.

Yeah stockton was just beating thomas out of all nba selections and was unquestionably better....but meaningless "fear" terms....

[dhsilv2]

Isaiah Thomas was a much better player than John Stockton.

Isaiah Thomas's teams won in the post season against Larry Bird, Magic and Michael Jordan....and while the Bad Boy Pistons were badass.....Dumars and Zeke were the only two somewhat superstar players.

John Stockton led teams that choked in the playoffs for nearly 20 years. 1997 and 1998 were anomalies.
The biggest reason the Jazz would normally underachieve in the post season was that Stockton would get dominated by the other teams opposing point guard.
It happened all the time.

John Stockton was great at hitting a wide open jumper...but he could not keep the opposing defense honest with his offensive abilities. He could not hit consistently hit an off the dribble jumper, or go to his left hand.

If the Utah Jazz had a point guard that could score like Nash, Chris Paul, Steph Curry, or Isaiah Thomas they could have beaten the Bulls at least once.

Thomas has a vastly better team around him, he had in every sense of the word a super team. In no way shape or form was Thomas even remotely close to stockton as a player. We're talking about a guy who is top 30 all time and a guy barely in the top 70.

John Stockton would be looked at as Mark Price if he didn't play with Karl Malone.

John Stockton regularly got dominated in the playoffs by opposing point guards. This is why the Jazz were perennial underachievers in the post season. John Stocktons lack of scoring ability is why he and Karl Malone finished their careers without any championships.

Isaiah Thomas was the best player on teams that defeated the Celtics, Lakers and Bulls in the post season, and that should have won 3 consecutive NBA titles.
You are out of your mind if you think the Bad Boy Pistons were a "super team".

The reason that Isaiah Thomas was better than John Stockton was that one player could dominate a game with his scoring ability and the other could not.

One player couldn't defend anything. One player had a super team. The other didn't.

[Jonny Blaze]

Isaiah Thomas was a much better player than John Stockton.

Isaiah Thomas's teams won in the post season against Larry Bird, Magic and Michael Jordan....and while the Bad Boy Pistons were badass.....Dumars and Zeke were the only two somewhat superstar players.

[spoiler]John Stockton led teams that choked in the playoffs for nearly 20 years. 1997 and 1998 were anomalies.
The biggest reason the Jazz would normally underachieve in the post season was that Stockton would get dominated by the other teams opposing point guard.
It happened all the time.

John Stockton was great at hitting a wide open jumper...but he could not keep the opposing defense honest with his offensive abilities. He could not hit consistently hit an off the dribble jumper, or go to his left hand.

If the Utah Jazz had a point guard that could score like Nash, Chris Paul, Steph Curry, or Isaiah Thomas they could have beaten the Bulls at least once.[/b]

Much better. Stockton didn't become a player anybody feared, until after Isaiah retired. Utah was never even a contender until Stockton had already played in the league 10 years.

Yeah stockton was just beating thomas out of all nba selections and was unquestionably better....but meaningless "fear" terms....

John Stockton was never the best player on his own team.

If Stockton was "unquestionably" better than Isaiah Thomas....then why did he never win a title?

Guys...being able to score matters when winning titles.

[Jonny Blaze]

Thomas has a vastly better team around him, he had in every sense of the word a super team. In no way shape or form was Thomas even remotely close to stockton as a player. We're talking about a guy who is top 30 all time and a guy barely in the top 70.

John Stockton would be looked at as Mark Price if he didn't play with Karl Malone.

John Stockton regularly got dominated in the playoffs by opposing point guards. This is why the Jazz were perennial underachievers in the post season. John Stocktons lack of scoring ability is why he and Karl Malone finished their careers without any championships.

Isaiah Thomas was the best player on teams that defeated the Celtics, Lakers and Bulls in the post season, and that should have won 3 consecutive NBA titles.
You are out of your mind if you think the Bad Boy Pistons were a "super team".

The reason that Isaiah Thomas was better than John Stockton was that one player could dominate a game with his scoring ability and the other could not.

One player couldn't defend anything. One player had a super team. The other didn't.

Karl Malone was better than any player on the Detroit Pistons.

In what world were the Joe Dumars, Isiah, Microwave, Rodman, Laimbeer and the other BAD BOY PISTONS a super team???
Because you said so??

Isaish Thomas was the leader of a team with average talent(for an all time great basketball team) that beat Larry Bird, Magic and Jordan in the post season while all of those players were in their prime.

Michael Jordan and the Bulls were the only one of those three teams that were less talented than Detroit. Magic and Bird played with more Hall of Fame talent than Isiah....and the Pistons held their own against some all time great teams.

The Pistons got screwed in Game 6 of the 1988 Finals...or they would have won 3 titles in a row.

Meanwhile...John Stockton spends 20 years choking in the playoffs and wins nothing.
I doubt you were alive to see these guys play....but the reason Stockton never won in the post season because he did not have the offensive arsenal that it took to beat the truly elite teams.

Stocktons whole career is shaped by playing with Karl Malone. Malone would have been great with any point guard.
John Stockton would have been a nobody if he played with an average power forward. His lack of scoring ability always caught up to the Jazz in the post season.

[dhsilv2]

Much better. Stockton didn't become a player anybody feared, until after Isaiah retired. Utah was never even a contender until Stockton had already played in the league 10 years.

Yeah stockton was just beating thomas out of all nba selections and was unquestionably better....but meaningless "fear" terms....

John Stockton was never the best player on his own team.

If Stockton was "unquestionably" better than Isaiah Thomas....then why did he never win a title?

Guys...being able to score matters when winning titles.

1. He was likely better than Malone.

2. Thomas had a way better team around him...he had a super team for crying out loud.

[dhsilv2]

John Stockton would be looked at as Mark Price if he didn't play with Karl Malone.

John Stockton regularly got dominated in the playoffs by opposing point guards. This is why the Jazz were perennial underachievers in the post season. John Stocktons lack of scoring ability is why he and Karl Malone finished their careers without any championships.

Isaiah Thomas was the best player on teams that defeated the Celtics, Lakers and Bulls in the post season, and that should have won 3 consecutive NBA titles.
You are out of your mind if you think the Bad Boy Pistons were a "super team".

The reason that Isaiah Thomas was better than John Stockton was that one player could dominate a game with his scoring ability and the other could not.

One player couldn't defend anything. One player had a super team. The other didn't.

Karl Malone was better than any player on the Detroit Pistons.

In what world were the Joe Dumars, Isiah, Microwave, Rodman, Laimbeer and the other BAD BOY PISTONS a super team???
Because you said so??

Isaish Thomas was the leader of a team with average talent(for an all time great basketball team) that beat Larry Bird, Magic and Jordan in the post season while all of those players were in their prime.

Michael Jordan and the Bulls were the only one of those three teams that were less talented than Detroit. Magic and Bird played with more Hall of Fame talent than Isiah....and the Pistons held their own against some all time great teams.

The Pistons got screwed in Game 6 of the 1988 Finals...or they would have won 3 titles in a row.

Meanwhile...John Stockton spends 20 years choking in the playoffs and wins nothing.
I doubt you were alive to see these guys play....but the reason Stockton never won in the post season because he did not have the offensive arsenal that it took to beat the truly elite teams.

Stocktons whole career is shaped by playing with Karl Malone. Malone would have been great with any point guard.
John Stockton would have been a nobody if he played with an average power forward. His lack of scoring ability always caught up to the Jazz in the post season.

So you didn't watch these guys?

[TheWhiteMamba]

My guess is no.
When you take a part the most important cog of a very well oiled machine (the ultimate playmaker in this case), the expectation is not very good...

Imagine if you have to prepare a Chocolate Cake, and you take away the Chocolate and substitute it with Caviar...

[tsherkin]

Whups. Was looking at per 36 and didn’t know it. That man logged some heavy minutes.

Yes.

Stockton was far more hesitant about initiating his own offense. Mostly, that didn't matter to them in the RS because their offense worked fine, particularly as they reached their post-youth peak in the late 90s. But when Chicago was able to really attack Stockton with their long, athletic perimeter guys, it was a huge problem, and at the paces at which those Finals matchups were played, there wasn't a lot of room for error. 97 was 84 possessions per game and 98 was 82. That's... slow. They were fairly ugly games, punctuated by memorable moments. The series averages in 98 look worse because of how badly Chicago spanked Utah in game 3, but both Finals matchups were very much close.

For my part, I don't know that an inefficient gunner from the point with less range would be the solution to Utah's issues with Chicago. Isiah was a good player, and of course, PG-initiated offense is the least efficient in the game for the most part because it is typically the least-supported by team passing, so you have to give them something of a pass. Zeke certainly contributed to some decent to good Detroit offenses, though obviously they won more on defense than on O. It is also important to remember that Dumars, Aguirre and Laimbeer were efficient scorers picking up the broader volume of team scoring volume. That left Isiah capable of gunning to drive the offense, letting his dribble attack and passing help drive the team's efficacy.

[tmorgan]

So the Bad Boy Pistons have been retrofitted with the label “super team” now, eh? I must’ve forgotten the marquee free agents that colluded to form that squad. I mean, they drafted Isiah, Dumars, Salley and Rodman. Traded Greg Kelser for Vinnie. Traded a 1st, Hubbard and Mokeski for Billy. Signed underachieving Rick Mahorn as a free agent and revitalized his career. Traded Dantley and a 1st for Aguirre. By the way, all of those guys save Aguirre were in their mid-20’s when acquired. Oh, traded for Buddha, too.

Super team my butt.

[Antinomy]

And Pippen would never have become a superstar if he didn't practice against Jordan everyday

Why? Scottie Pippen was the #5 overall pick. Top 5 picks are supposed to be superstars.

Not in most drafts.
Plus don't you think practicing against Jordan everyday would make you a far better player offensively and defensively than if you didn't?

Then why didn’t any of the OTHER players Jordan played with reach Scottie’s level?

Funny how he didn’t make anyone on the pre-Pippen Bulls or Washington Wizards “better”.

[cam24thomas]

Why? Scottie Pippen was the #5 overall pick. Top 5 picks are supposed to be superstars.

Not in most drafts.
Plus don't you think practicing against Jordan everyday would make you a far better player offensively and defensively than if you didn't?

Then why didn’t any of the OTHER players Jordan played with reach Scottie’s level?

Funny how he didn’t make anyone on the pre-Pippen Bulls or Washington Wizards “better”.

Do you realize Pippen is a better athlete than Jordan's other teammates?
Or do you see Pippen as being the same athlete as BJ Armstrong and John Paxson?
Also, in practice, Jordan guarded Pippen more than anyone, and Pippen guarded Jordan more than anyone, so Pippen had a very different experience to everyone else on that team.

Pippen always had a decent chance of being an all-star (but far from certain, because many great athletes never become all-stars), but don't you think practicing against Jordan everyday increased the chances of Pippen becoming a superstar?

What if you practiced against Jordan everyday for a decade? I'm 100% sure you'd improve far more than if you practiced against your local players.
Its literally the key to becoming a great player in any sport. You have to push yourself, and nobody pushed his teammates more than Jordan did.

And Richard Hamilton became one of the best 2-way guards in the NBA, and went on to be the starting guard for a championship Pistons team.
But that Washington team had the worst roster in the NBA.
Wizards starting 5: Jahidi White, Popeye Jones, Richard Hamilton (but he only played 63 games), MJ, Chris Whitney, 6th man: over-the-hill-Laettner.
And they still were 26-21 before Jordan went down with severe knee tendinitis and only played 60 games.
At that point, Washington had beaten the East-leading Nets, and also had beaten the West-leading Kings.
Its a pity they traded Hamilton for the next season, because Stackhouse hurt their ball movement, and they never had good chemistry with him.

[sprewellchokes]

This guy went off in the finals on a bad ankle. He’s a winner they’d get at least one ring.

[Uncle Mxy]

Isiah left a mark on Stockton. Would Stockton have been as good as he was otherwise?

https://www.sportscasting.com/isiah-thomas-left-literal-mark-young-john-stockton-jazz-star-refused-wash-leg/

[SelfishPlayer]

Why? Scottie Pippen was the #5 overall pick. Top 5 picks are supposed to be superstars.

Not in most drafts.
Plus don't you think practicing against Jordan everyday would make you a far better player offensively and defensively than if you didn't?

Then why didn’t any of the OTHER players Jordan played with reach Scottie’s level?

Funny how he didn’t make anyone on the pre-Pippen Bulls or Washington Wizards “better”.

Richard Hamilton became "better" once Jordan got him traded to the Pistons for Jerry Stackhouse who immediately hated playing with Jordan!

[queridiculo]

Jordan shot .481 from the field vs. Detroit in the playoffs (22 games), for 30.0 points, 6.7 rebounds, 6.1 assists.
Jordan shot .487 from the field and 33.4 points in his playoff career, and 6.4 rebounds, 5.7 assists.
Not a big difference, considering that Detroit were supposed to be the best at defending Jordan.
And I'm sure if we look at every team Jordan faced in the playoffs, we'll find some that he did worse than 30ppg and 48% shooting.
Also Jordan didn't have a big series in 1991 when Chicago beat Detroit 4-0, he scored 29.8 points, 5.3 rebounds, 7.0 assists.

Jordan played his best series against the Pistons in 1991.

Yeah, he averaged 29.8 points... on less than 18 FGAs per game!

[CallMeKahn]

This guy went off in the finals on a bad ankle. He’s a winner they’d get at least one ring.

I'd argue that the Bad Boy era Pistons were a better overall team than the late 90s Jazz. Not to take away from Zeke, but deadlifting a team that was starting Greg f***ing Ostertag is something of a Herculean labor.

[dhsilv2]

Whups. Was looking at per 36 and didn’t know it. That man logged some heavy minutes.

Yes.

Stockton was far more hesitant about initiating his own offense. Mostly, that didn't matter to them in the RS because their offense worked fine, particularly as they reached their post-youth peak in the late 90s. But when Chicago was able to really attack Stockton with their long, athletic perimeter guys, it was a huge problem, and at the paces at which those Finals matchups were played, there wasn't a lot of room for error. 97 was 84 possessions per game and 98 was 82. That's... slow. They were fairly ugly games, punctuated by memorable moments. The series averages in 98 look worse because of how badly Chicago spanked Utah in game 3, but both Finals matchups were very much close.

For my part, I don't know that an inefficient gunner from the point with less range would be the solution to Utah's issues with Chicago. Isiah was a good player, and of course, PG-initiated offense is the least efficient in the game for the most part because it is typically the least-supported by team passing, so you have to give them something of a pass. Zeke certainly contributed to some decent to good Detroit offenses, though obviously they won more on defense than on O. It is also important to remember that Dumars, Aguirre and Laimbeer were efficient scorers picking up the broader volume of team scoring volume. That left Isiah capable of gunning to drive the offense, letting his dribble attack and passing help drive the team's efficacy.

Replacing the Jazz "centers" with Laimbeer would have given them a FAR better chance to beat the bulls than replacing Stockton with Zeke. To say the Jazz had bad centers is perhaps the understatement of the century. The whole Bull's defense was predicated on Pippen being the "center" defender who basically ignored that the Jazz had them on the floor to effectively test the rules of that era's illegal defense rules.

[AbeVigodaLive]

since we're in the middle of the summer and things are slow, what do you guys think:

replace stockton with prime isaiah. do they beat the bulls ?

i say yes. IT was more of a scorer and would get you buckets when needed. we saw him drop 25+ on showtime on 1 ankle the year right before he started winning

I think if past his prime Stockton played more than usual in the finals they might have won. Sloan never adjusted his rotation even with a championship on the line.

You're not wrong. The Jazz best chance was in 1998... with an aging Bulls roster on the way out... a sick Jordan (game 6) and an injured Pippen.

After averaging about 38 mpg in the 1997 Finals, Stockton only played 32 mpg in '98. His backup, Howard Eisley, was on the court for 18 mpg.

Nevermind wondering whether a prime Isiah Thomas could do better than Stockton's 10 points/9 assists per game... a prime Thomas means less of Howard Eisley in crucial situations. Heck, Stockton only played 32 minutes in a one-point loss in the deciding Game 6 of '98.

There is a discussion whether a prime Thomas was better than a prime Stockton in a big game or series... comparing a prime Thomas to a 35-year-old Stockton on a minutes restriction... there is no comparison.



[Note: As for the connection with Malone. It's a valid concern, but we shouldn't forget that Thomas proved in his career that he was more of a chameleon that he gets credit for. As THE guy on a good but not great team... he averaged 21/14. His numbers took a hit when surrounded by better players... and the team was better for it. And Thomas accepted it willingly. He'd have let Malone cook.]

[Jonny Blaze]

So the Bad Boy Pistons have been retrofitted with the label “super team” now, eh? I must’ve forgotten the marquee free agents that colluded to form that squad. I mean, they drafted Isiah, Dumars, Salley and Rodman. Traded Greg Kelser for Vinnie. Traded a 1st, Hubbard and Mokeski for Billy. Signed underachieving Rick Mahorn as a free agent and revitalized his career. Traded Dantley and a 1st for Aguirre. By the way, all of those guys save Aguirre were in their mid-20’s when acquired. Oh, traded for Buddha, too.

Super team my butt.

The reason that poster is trying to call the Pistons a "super team" is that its an attempt to denigrate Isaiah Thomas.
He had no argument because Isaiah Thomas teams regularly beat some of the greatest teams/superstars in NBA history.

John Stockton doesn't have that on his resume....despite playing with (at the time) the best Power Forward of All time in Karl Malone.

This is what happens when you have blind fandom to a particular player. You have to attempt to distort history to try and fit some sort of retro-active narrative.

[kamaze]

Isiah is better than Stockton but I still can't see them beating the Bulls.