Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 - 2005-06 Dwyane Wade

[falcolombardi]

2016 Kawhi versus 1995 Pippen (or 1996 if we want to go title chasing) is a pretty interesting debate. Defence is tough to call. “Impact” is similar. Kawhi definitely the better scorer, but Pippen has a massive creation advantage.

Tellingly, Pippen has not come close to making either of the past two projects. Whether or not that is right maybe should be debated. 1994-96 Pippen versus 1995/96 Penny could be an okay contemporary comparison. Pippen versus Walt Frazier, maybe? 2019 Paul George?

I can see myself voting for pippen in the top 40 tbh.

Other potentially controversial picks at the top 40/50

-pippen
-draymond
-gobert
-mourning
-penny Hardaway
-westbrook (i am for sure arguing him somewhere in the top 40 or 30)
-lillard
-kevin johnson
-payton
-kidd
-butler
-george

[AEnigma]

For me top forty guys are players I think can be the best player on a reasonable title-winning roster, and I am not sure Pippen meets that cutoff… but I am also not sure there are forty players who meet that cutoff.

Pippen versus Jimmy Butler? Vince Carter? Marques Johnson? Bernard King? Rick Barry? Elgin Baylor? Dominique Wilkins?
…
Pippen versus Barkley?

[falcolombardi]

For me top forty guys are players I think can be the best player on a reasonable title-winning roster, and I am not sure Pippen meets that cutoff… but I am also not sure there are forty players who meet that cutoff.

Pippen versus Jimmy Butler? Vince Carter? Marques Johnson? Bernard King? Rick Barry? Elgin Baylor? Dominique Wilkins?
…
Pippen versus Barkley?

There are not 40 players -total- to win a nba ring as a team best player. Straight up. and some of the ones thst did it were not player usually argued in top 40 lists here (isiah thomas, gus williams, wes unseld, ben wallace, tony parker or 2014 kawhi/duncan)

You could argue as little as 30 players did ever be

2010's -dirk,lebron,curry,kawhi,giannis (durant?)
2000's - shaq,duncan,wallace,wade,garnett, kobe
1990's- jordan, hakeem, isiah thomas
1980's- bird, magic, moses
1970's-kareem,walton, gus williams, unseld, frazier,barry, havlicek (reed?, cowens, aba julius?, aba fred brown?)
1960's- russel, wilt
1950's-pettit, schayes, arizin, mikan (neil johnston?)

That is 30 guys minimum but you could argue for durant, davis (20), billups (04). Maybe count 76 nets for julius (would feel like then you gotta include other aba greats like brown, gilmore or mel daniels)

That is a lot of guys that won a ring as a team best player who wont be voted ahead of many who didnt

[AEnigma]

I said could (well, literally, “can”), not did. And for centres especially, I see quite a few potential “could”s.

Also, where did you come up with Fred Brown? Did you mean Roger Brown? He co-led with Mel Daniels. ABA winners were Connie Hawkins, Warren Jabali, Roger Brown / Mel Daniels, Zelmo Beaty / Willie Wise, Brown / Daniels / Freddie Lewis (source of confusion?), George McGinnis (rest of the Pacers still good though), Erving, Artis Gilmore, Erving.

[Colbinii]

2007 Nash
2009 Wade
2020 Harden

Steve Nash [2007/2005]

Best offensive player left, tremendous shooter and helped revolutionize the modern NBA. Strong post-season performer and extremely unique in how he generated points.

Dwyane Wade [2009/2010]

All-time great season as a wing a combination of volume scoring, playmaking and defensive ability/consistently/playmaking. An offensive game which was surprisingly resilient in the post-season.

James Harden [2020/2019/2018]

Remarkably reliable volume scoring with tremendous playmaking. I've become more respectful of volume scoring again and a little less on general passing which has resulting in me respecting Prime/Peak Harden more. I like his statistical approach more than Kobes and think he was simply a bit better player even if the results weren't the same [Different eras].

[falcolombardi]

I said could (well, literally, “can”), not did. And for centres especially, I see quite a few potential coulds.

I know but i wanted to comment how exclusive the "can lead a team to a ring" is based on actually winning them

Many of the all time greats are actually guys who didnt win or did it but not as their team best player. Is a pretty exclusive club which is why is so interesting some of its members (havlicek,unseld, wallace,thomas, gus) are guys who get very little consideration at top 40 projects like this

Not necesarrily incorrectly, but is interesting to consider nonetheless

In other words many guys we wouldnt argue as capable of winning a ring as a team best player if they didnt actually win a ring as a team best player.

I feel We would never consider ben wallace/billups or...tony parker?(2014) as a guy you can win a ring with as your most important piece.dunno, is interesting to ponder about

Edit: my mistake on roger brown. I am not too knowledgeable in aba players.

[AEnigma]

Roger Brown is a cool player who deserves a little more love here when you think of how much people know about Connie Hawkins, but I would not put him over Rick Barry at all, and I will not vote for Rick Barry until the mid-30s at best.

[Colbinii]

Roger Brown is a cool player who deserves a little more love here when you think of how much people know about Connie Hawkins, but I would not put him over Rick Barry at all, and I will not vote for Rick Barry until the 30s at best.

Would you vote Connie over Rick?

What about Connie vs Giannis?

[AEnigma]

Would you vote Connie over Rick?

What about Connie vs Giannis?

I think 1969 shows us that Connie was better than Rick Barry at that time, but that was Connie’s peak and not Barry’s, and peak Barry showed out in a significantly stronger league, so no.

Giannis is already in, but hard no on that.

[SpreeS]

This ranking is so random…

[iggymcfrack]

I am wondering along but is dpoy kawhi a better player than peak scottie pippen?

Both are defense monsters outside the interior positions, kawhi is a better floor spacer and scorer (even then) but pippen is a great offensive rebounder and playmaker

Of course he is. Kawhi's much closer to Jordan than Pippen. Over the last 5 postseasons, he's averaging 28.3 PPG on .629 TS%. He's neck and neck with Durant for the 3rd best wing scorer in playoff history. His PER and WS/48 over that span would both rank #1 all-time ahead of Jordan if they were for an entire career. His career playoff TS% is 3rd all-time. His BPM in 2017 was 4th all-time for any playoff run.

Like all 3 are all-time defenders. Jordan and Kawhi are both all-time alpha dogs on offense. Pippen's an all-time second banana that couldn't handle the pressure of being a top guy and threw a tantrum to take himself out of the game for one of the most important possessions of his entire career. They're not the same.

[70sFan]

I am wondering along but is dpoy kawhi a better player than peak scottie pippen?

Both are defense monsters outside the interior positions, kawhi is a better floor spacer and scorer (even then) but pippen is a great offensive rebounder and playmaker

Of course he is. Kawhi's much closer to Jordan than Pippen. Over the last 5 postseasons, he's averaging 28.3 PPG on .629 TS%. He's neck and neck with Durant for the 3rd best wing scorer in playoff history. His PER and WS/48 over that span would both rank #1 all-time ahead of Jordan if they were for an entire career. His career playoff TS% is 3rd all-time. His BPM in 2017 was 4th all-time for any playoff run.

Like all 3 are all-time defenders. Jordan and Kawhi are both all-time alpha dogs on offense. Pippen's an all-time second banana that couldn't handle the pressure of being a top guy and threw a tantrum to take himself out of the game for one of the most important possessions of his entire career. They're not the same.

Kawhi isn't similar defender to his younger self when he became the elite offensive anchor.

It's yet another example when posters explain deeply the offensive difference, while completely ignoring defense with short "they were all great defenders". No, Raptors/Clippers Kawhi wasn't even close to Pippen as a defender. I don't understand why people can't realize that there are also tiers in defensive ability. Being "good" or "great" sometimes isn't enough.

I'm not using this to put Pippen ahead of Kawhi (I have him comfortably lower) but to underline the important issue in basketball talks here.

[70sFan]

This ranking is so random…

I don't participate regulary due to personal reasons, but why do you think so? What would you really change here?

[LA Bird]

Here are the results for round 18

Winner: 06 Wade

There were 14 voters in this round: AEnigma, trelos6, f4p, Samurai, CharityStripe34, Dutchball97, Ron Swanson, SickMother, falcolombardi, ardee, trex_8063, iggymcfrack, Proxy, Colbinii

A total of 34 seasons received at least 1 vote: 05 Nash, 06 Bryant, 06 Nash, 06 Nowitzki, 06 Wade, 07 Bryant, 07 Nash, 08 Bryant, 09 Bryant, 09 Wade, 10 Wade, 11 Nowitzki, 14 Durant, 16 Durant, 17 Durant, 17 Leonard, 18 Durant, 18 Harden, 19 Harden, 19 Leonard, 20 Davis, 20 Harden, 50 Mikan, 51 Mikan, 58 Pettit, 59 Pettit, 62 Pettit, 68 Hawkins, 76 Erving, 82 Malone, 83 Malone, 94 Robinson, 95 Robinson, 96 Robinson

Top 5 seasons
06 Wade: 0.805 (214-52)
09 Wade: 0.776 (180-52)
17 Leonard: 0.747 (183-62)
76 Erving: 0.725 (161-61)
08 Bryant: 0.632 (98-57)

[letskissbro]

06 isn’t even Wade’s best season

[Dutchball97]

06 isn’t even Wade’s best season

Yes it is. The post-season matters.

[iggymcfrack]

06 isn’t even Wade’s best season

I’d be with you on going with the better numbers year if he didn’t actually have better impact stats in 2006. He led the league in RAPM.

[iggymcfrack]

I am wondering along but is dpoy kawhi a better player than peak scottie pippen?

Both are defense monsters outside the interior positions, kawhi is a better floor spacer and scorer (even then) but pippen is a great offensive rebounder and playmaker

Of course he is. Kawhi's much closer to Jordan than Pippen. Over the last 5 postseasons, he's averaging 28.3 PPG on .629 TS%. He's neck and neck with Durant for the 3rd best wing scorer in playoff history. His PER and WS/48 over that span would both rank #1 all-time ahead of Jordan if they were for an entire career. His career playoff TS% is 3rd all-time. His BPM in 2017 was 4th all-time for any playoff run.

Like all 3 are all-time defenders. Jordan and Kawhi are both all-time alpha dogs on offense. Pippen's an all-time second banana that couldn't handle the pressure of being a top guy and threw a tantrum to take himself out of the game for one of the most important possessions of his entire career. They're not the same.

Kawhi isn't similar defender to his younger self when he became the elite offensive anchor.

It's yet another example when posters explain deeply the offensive difference, while completely ignoring defense with short "they were all great defenders". No, Raptors/Clippers Kawhi wasn't even close to Pippen as a defender. I don't understand why people can't realize that there are also tiers in defensive ability. Being "good" or "great" sometimes isn't enough.

I'm not using this to put Pippen ahead of Kawhi (I have him comfortably lower) but to underline the important issue in basketball talks here.

No, Clippers/Raptors Kawhi isn’t the same on defense, but 2016/2017 Kawhi was that elite offensive anchor while still playing at a DPOY level, in the postseason if not the regular season in 2017. For those 2 postseasons combined, he had a 30.2 PER and a 13.0 BPM and scored 25 PPG on .640 TS%.

[trex_8063]

.

fwiw iggy, if you list ONLY '96 Robinson as your choice, LABird is not assuming your vote is transferable to other DRob seasons (such as '94 or '95)......not unless you indicate as much (e.g. "'96 Robinson ('94, '95)").
Perhaps you feel '96 Robinson is distinctly [far] better than '94 or '95; but this is a friendly FYI in case it's an oversight.

Top 5 seasons
06 Wade: 0.805 (214-52)
09 Wade: 0.776 (180-52)
17 Leonard: 0.747 (183-62)
76 Erving: 0.725 (161-61)
08 Bryant: 0.632 (98-57)

Above fyi taken into account, I'm still wondering how '94 Robinson can come out behind '08 Kobe.

I counted two 1st-place votes for '08 Kobe, and ZERO 2nd or 3rd place votes (a couple people did indicate he'd be their 4th pick--->though my understanding of the rules is that 4th thru Xth picks do not factor into H2H records).

'94 Robinson, otoh, even excluding iggymcfrack's vote for reason above, still has two 1st-place votes [same as Kobe] (assuming my vote for '95 Robinson was properly transferred, the literal ONLY H2H '94 Robinson was losing on mine was to '95 Robinson) and a 2nd-place vote........thus is it statistically possible to actually be behind Kobe in H2H record?

I wouldn't think the single H2H loss [to '95 Robinson] on my ballot would be enough to push him behind Kobe in this circumstance; the additional 2nd-place vote should give him ample additional wins to compensate.


EDIT: Makes me think players with multiple peak(ish) years are indeed being penalized for it. For example, since two seasons of Kobe have been suggested, whereas THREE of Robinson have been........when someone votes Kobe > Robinson here, Kobe's basically getting a 3-0 H2H record against DRob.
But when someone thinks Robinson > Kobe, Robinson only gets a 2-0 H2H boost.

[DraymondGold]

06 isn’t even Wade’s best season

I’d be with you on going with the better numbers year if he didn’t actually have better impact stats in 2006. He led the league in RAPM.

06 Has better RAPM and PIPM numbers in the regular season. 09 Has better RPM and BPM, certainly better versatility, and possibly better film study (e.g. some posters have mentioned the smarter defense of 09 Wade).

Neither Wade years have strong advantages in these stats over the competition (e.g. Robinson, Kobe, KD), and both Wade years have a truly massive disadvantage per WOWY against the competition (both in full prime samples and in smaller 2/3/5 year samples).

Regardless of whether you think 06 Wade actually is better than 09 Wade, it'll be interesting to discuss in the post-project Discussion thread whether this is a case of ring bias. Because it'll almost certainly be brought up as evidence for winning bias.

Of course he is. Kawhi's much closer to Jordan than Pippen. Over the last 5 postseasons, he's averaging 28.3 PPG on .629 TS%. He's neck and neck with Durant for the 3rd best wing scorer in playoff history. His PER and WS/48 over that span would both rank #1 all-time ahead of Jordan if they were for an entire career. His career playoff TS% is 3rd all-time. His BPM in 2017 was 4th all-time for any playoff run.

Like all 3 are all-time defenders. Jordan and Kawhi are both all-time alpha dogs on offense. Pippen's an all-time second banana that couldn't handle the pressure of being a top guy and threw a tantrum to take himself out of the game for one of the most important possessions of his entire career. They're not the same.

Kawhi isn't similar defender to his younger self when he became the elite offensive anchor.

It's yet another example when posters explain deeply the offensive difference, while completely ignoring defense with short "they were all great defenders". No, Raptors/Clippers Kawhi wasn't even close to Pippen as a defender. I don't understand why people can't realize that there are also tiers in defensive ability. Being "good" or "great" sometimes isn't enough.

I'm not using this to put Pippen ahead of Kawhi (I have him comfortably lower) but to underline the important issue in basketball talks here.

No, Clippers/Raptors Kawhi isn’t the same on defense, but 2016/2017 Kawhi was that elite offensive anchor while still playing at a DPOY level, in the postseason if not the regular season in 2017. For those 2 postseasons combined, he had a 30.2 PER and a 13.0 BPM and scored 25 PPG on .640 TS%.

70sFan warned against not equating good defense with great defense. It sounds like you do distinguish between the defense of Spurs Kawhi with Clippers Kawhi, which is great! There's a pretty enormous gap both in the available impact metrics and the film study.

But I'd also warn against equating good offense with great offense. Kawhi's best offensive-only performance is clearly his later years, most especially with passing. 16/17 Kawhi was still a great scorer, the kind that would be rated highly (possibly overrated) in stats like PER/BasketballReference BPM, but he's far from playmaker he would be come later which is also far from the playmakers he's competing against in many all-time perimeter peaks. And this does limit the offense, as you can see in the team relative offense stats posted by falcolombardi [ https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=100924468#p100924468 ] and in the Thinking Basketball film analysis linked by me [ https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=100924249#p100924249 ]

.

fwiw iggy, if you list ONLY '96 Robinson as your choice, LABird is not assuming your vote is transferable to other DRob seasons (such as '94 or '95)......not unless you indicate as much (e.g. "'96 Robinson ('94, '95)").
Perhaps you feel '96 Robinson is distinctly [far] better than '94 or '95; but this is a friendly FYI in case it's an oversight.

Top 5 seasons
06 Wade: 0.805 (214-52)
09 Wade: 0.776 (180-52)
17 Leonard: 0.747 (183-62)
76 Erving: 0.725 (161-61)
08 Bryant: 0.632 (98-57)

Above fyi taken into account, I'm still wondering how '94 Robinson can come out behind '08 Kobe.

I counted two 1st-place votes for '08 Kobe, and ZERO 2nd or 3rd place votes (a couple people did indicate he'd be their 4th pick--->though my understanding of the rules is that 4th thru Xth picks do not factor into H2H records).

'94 Robinson, otoh, even excluding iggymcfrack's vote for reason above, still has two 1st-place votes [same as Kobe] (assuming my vote for '95 Robinson was properly transferred, the literal ONLY H2H '94 Robinson was losing on mine was to '95 Robinson) and a 2nd-place vote........thus is it statistically possible to actually be behind Kobe in H2H record?

I wouldn't think the single H2H loss [to '95 Robinson] on my ballot would be enough to push him behind Kobe in this circumstance; the additional 2nd-place vote should give him ample additional wins to compensate.


EDIT: Makes me think players with multiple peak(ish) years are indeed being penalized for it. For example, since two seasons of Kobe have been suggested, whereas THREE of Robinson have been........when someone votes Kobe > Robinson here, Kobe's basically getting a 3-0 H2H record against DRob.
But when someone thinks Robinson > Kobe, Robinson only gets a 2-0 H2H boost.

I think the multiple year thing works great, and gives us more data, assuming people actually vote for multiple years (and do so thoughtfully not just voting for every surrounding year of their preferred peak willy-nilly).

But when people are hesitant to include multiple years of Player A over a single year of Player B just be cause they prefer to only have a single year listed, even if they do actually rate multiple years of Player A over the best year of Player B... then that can lead to situations where player B "upsets" Player A despite more people being in favor of Player A. This actually happened in previous threads.