Options to fix the PF hole

[GoBlue72391]

Why can't we start PW for a whole season ?
It seems like this is AK's choice.I think it's fair to give Pat a chance for showing if he can play consistently well.

We can? We will? We were going to start him for a whole season last year, but he got injured in like the fourth game and missed like 75 percent of the year.

I understand the logic in wanting to give the PF position to PWill. The FO didn't draft him 4th overall to be a bit bench player. At this point I don't have a problem with penciling him in as the starting PF, but we're putting all our eggs in one basket.

If PWill gets injured again or doesn't make a leap, then we have the exact same issue we had last year. There's a good chance he remains the same passive, timid, low impact player he's always been and if that is the case then we have no one else to fall back on.

- Green is beyond tiny even for a team that likes to play small and is not a rotation caliber player anyway

- DJJ is solid but his lack of shooting makes him worse for us than he would be for most other teams who don't lack shooting to the extent that we do

- Dalen is a young, raw project player transitioning from PG so you likely cannot count on him for this season

- For obvious reasons we'll want to avoid playing Lonzo and Caruso at the 4 if we can help it

Going with PWill as the starting PF is fine, but not having a plan B isn't. Our entire season basically hinges almost entirely on his development and health. The fact that we're in this position for the second year in a row is mismanagement by the FO, plain and simple.

Sent from my SM-S127DL using RealGM mobile app

[PJSteven22]

Seeing as Billy and management don't see it as a hole but part of their strategy when not injured I'd say that this thread is pure fan fiction at this point.

Just because you ignore something. Doesn’t mean it disappears ie the lack of rim protection and shooting.

You aren't likely to address either of these things with a PF. The Bulls should theoretically have excellent shooting, but the results didn't match the theory because Lonzo and Pat missed most of the season and Vuc/Caruso dropped from 40% three point shooters to 31%/33% respectively.

We definitely don't have any rim protection, and we probably will never have rim protection as long as Vuc is a mainstay here, because it's almost impossible to have good rim protection if your center isn't doing it. Instead we'll hope to defend strong on the perimeter to make it matter less (somewhat effective prior to Lonzo going out), but not ideal even if you were decent at it (which will always be a struggle with Zach/DeMar in the lineup).

Agreed on rim protection but the problem with the shooting isn’t necessarily the the percentage but the volume. We have a bunch of guys who shoot high percentages (Pat, Ayo, Caruso before the Wrist injury, DJJ before his injury, Javonte) the only guys that are good shooters on high volume are Lonzo and Zach. My hope is that Vuc can at least shoot 36% on 4-5 attempts. I think that 2021 season was an exception not the norm.

[dougthonus]

Just because you ignore something. Doesn’t mean it disappears ie the lack of rim protection and shooting.

You aren't likely to address either of these things with a PF. The Bulls should theoretically have excellent shooting, but the results didn't match the theory because Lonzo and Pat missed most of the season and Vuc/Caruso dropped from 40% three point shooters to 31%/33% respectively.

We definitely don't have any rim protection, and we probably will never have rim protection as long as Vuc is a mainstay here, because it's almost impossible to have good rim protection if your center isn't doing it. Instead we'll hope to defend strong on the perimeter to make it matter less (somewhat effective prior to Lonzo going out), but not ideal even if you were decent at it (which will always be a struggle with Zach/DeMar in the lineup).

Agreed on rim protection but the problem with the shooting isn’t necessarily the the percentage but the volume. We have a bunch of guys who shoot high percentages (Pat, Ayo, Caruso before the Wrist injury, DJJ before his injury, Javonte) the only guys that are good shooters on high volume are Lonzo and Zach. My hope is that Vuc can at least shoot 36% on 4-5 attempts. I think that 2021 season was an exception not the norm.

Yeah, the Bulls were averaging two full more attempts per game and about 1% higher make rate when Lonzo played. Maybe been #1 in the league in 3 point percentage when Lonzo was there (would have been close). Still would have been bottom of the league in 3 point attempts but would have at least been in the ball park of the other teams instead of 2 full attempts below the next closest team.

[sco]

Why can't we start PW for a whole season ?
It seems like this is AK's choice.I think it's fair to give Pat a chance for showing if he can play consistently well.

We can? We will? We were going to start him for a whole season last year, but he got injured in like the fourth game and missed like 75 percent of the year.

I understand the logic in wanting to give the PF position to PWill. The FO didn't draft him 4th overall to be a bit bench player. At this point I don't have a problem with penciling him in as the starting PF, but we're putting all our eggs in one basket.

If PWill gets injured again or doesn't make a leap, then we have the exact same issue we had last year. There's a good chance he remains the same passive, timid, low impact player he's always been and if that is the case then we have no one else to fall back on.

- Green is beyond tiny even for a team that likes to play small and is not a rotation caliber player anyway

- DJJ is solid but his lack of shooting makes him worse for us than he would be for most other teams who don't lack shooting to the extent that we do

- Dalen is a young, raw project player transitioning from PG so you likely cannot count on him for this season

- For obvious reasons we'll want to avoid playing Lonzo and Caruso at the 4 if we can help it

Going with PWill as the starting PF is fine, but not having a plan B isn't. Our entire season basically hinges almost entirely on his development and health. The fact that we're in this position for the second year in a row is mismanagement by the FO, plain and simple.

Sent from my SM-S127DL using RealGM mobile app

I know I'm the DJJ fanboy here, but to lie a little with stats for him, I forget when he went down with which injury, but pre-ASB he averaged 40% from 3 for 34 games last season (albeit on low volume because he played 17 min per game), then went down to 19% after that (which IIRC was mostly after his finger injury).

His full-year per 36 stats were 11.5/6.8/1.2/1.0/1.3

[TheStig]

signing markieff morris when we can afford the min to stay under the LT would be a good choice as a back up.

[kodo]

The five stages of Power Forward of Bulls fans.

Denial -- "There is no way we'll run it back without a major move at PF, ownership said they WILL go into the lux tax."
Anger -- "Our off season was Andre Drummond and Dragic?!"
Bargaining -- "We can still trade for a PF, there are deals still to be made. Here's my list of 5 possible trades..."
Depression -- "The offseason is over. The GMs have all gone on vacation. Only news is KD. Bulls are done."

We need to get into the Acceptance phase and let this thread die.

[petebraun0]

Losing Justin Lewis also cost us a possible pf down the road this year. Perhaps after the all star break, Justin Lewis could have helped us a bit. Now, he can't.
I do think DJJ can be a backup pf. I wonder if one of our many Centers can play a little pf. Who do you think can? marko? Tony?

We certainly do need to trade for a pf, that is for sure. Or, dump Hill and Lewis and bring in two other two-way guys.

[kulaz3000]

Lewis was never going to play this upcoming season, unlikely to have even played in blowouts. He was headed to the G-league. He would have been a good player to development, but he was always going to be a few years a way to even be a contributor off the bench.

[PJSteven22]

Why can't we start PW for a whole season ?
It seems like this is AK's choice.I think it's fair to give Pat a chance for showing if he can play consistently well.

We can? We will? We were going to start him for a whole season last year, but he got injured in like the fourth game and missed like 75 percent of the year.

I understand the logic in wanting to give the PF position to PWill. The FO didn't draft him 4th overall to be a bit bench player. At this point I don't have a problem with penciling him in as the starting PF, but we're putting all our eggs in one basket.

If PWill gets injured again or doesn't make a leap, then we have the exact same issue we had last year. There's a good chance he remains the same passive, timid, low impact player he's always been and if that is the case then we have no one else to fall back on.

- Green is beyond tiny even for a team that likes to play small and is not a rotation caliber player anyway

- DJJ is solid but his lack of shooting makes him worse for us than he would be for most other teams who don't lack shooting to the extent that we do

- Dalen is a young, raw project player transitioning from PG so you likely cannot count on him for this season

- For obvious reasons we'll want to avoid playing Lonzo and Caruso at the 4 if we can help it

Going with PWill as the starting PF is fine, but not having a plan B isn't. Our entire season basically hinges almost entirely on his development and health. The fact that we're in this position for the second year in a row is mismanagement by the FO, plain and simple.

Sent from my SM-S127DL using RealGM mobile app

I know I'm the DJJ fanboy here, but to lie a little with stats for him, I forget when he went down with which injury, but pre-ASB he averaged 40% from 3 for 34 games last season (albeit on low volume because he played 17 min per game), then went down to 19% after that (which IIRC was mostly after his finger injury).

His full-year per 36 stats were 11.5/6.8/1.2/1.0/1.3

Even though DJJ was solid on low volume, he just doesn’t offer much gravity. Which is what we need most.

[SfBull]

Why can't we start PW for a whole season ?
It seems like this is AK's choice.I think it's fair to give Pat a chance for showing if he can play consistently well.

We can? We will? We were going to start him for a whole season last year, but he got injured in like the fourth game and missed like 75 percent of the year.

I understand the logic in wanting to give the PF position to PWill. The FO didn't draft him 4th overall to be a bit bench player. At this point I don't have a problem with penciling him in as the starting PF, but we're putting all our eggs in one basket.

If PWill gets injured again or doesn't make a leap, then we have the exact same issue we had last year. There's a good chance he remains the same passive, timid, low impact player he's always been and if that is the case then we have no one else to fall back on.

- Green is beyond tiny even for a team that likes to play small and is not a rotation caliber player anyway

- DJJ is solid but his lack of shooting makes him worse for us than he would be for most other teams who don't lack shooting to the extent that we do

- Dalen is a young, raw project player transitioning from PG so you likely cannot count on him for this season

- For obvious reasons we'll want to avoid playing Lonzo and Caruso at the 4 if we can help it

Going with PWill as the starting PF is fine, but not having a plan B isn't. Our entire season basically hinges almost entirely on his development and health. The fact that we're in this position for the second year in a row is mismanagement by the FO, plain and simple.

Sent from my SM-S127DL using RealGM mobile app

Having a plan B makes sense ,my point is if we can get a useful backup PF within the cap space.If AK can find someone like Drummond for backing up Pat I'm totally fine with that.
If Pat can really make a big leap forward is another question.I believe he has star ceiling but nothing will happen if he can't change his attitude for the game especially playing in a physical position like PF.About being healthy is something nobody can control as his position will always ask for a lot of contact.We can only hope he can stay healthy all season.

[sco]

We can? We will? We were going to start him for a whole season last year, but he got injured in like the fourth game and missed like 75 percent of the year.

I understand the logic in wanting to give the PF position to PWill. The FO didn't draft him 4th overall to be a bit bench player. At this point I don't have a problem with penciling him in as the starting PF, but we're putting all our eggs in one basket.

If PWill gets injured again or doesn't make a leap, then we have the exact same issue we had last year. There's a good chance he remains the same passive, timid, low impact player he's always been and if that is the case then we have no one else to fall back on.

- Green is beyond tiny even for a team that likes to play small and is not a rotation caliber player anyway

- DJJ is solid but his lack of shooting makes him worse for us than he would be for most other teams who don't lack shooting to the extent that we do

- Dalen is a young, raw project player transitioning from PG so you likely cannot count on him for this season

- For obvious reasons we'll want to avoid playing Lonzo and Caruso at the 4 if we can help it

Going with PWill as the starting PF is fine, but not having a plan B isn't. Our entire season basically hinges almost entirely on his development and health. The fact that we're in this position for the second year in a row is mismanagement by the FO, plain and simple.

Sent from my SM-S127DL using RealGM mobile app

I know I'm the DJJ fanboy here, but to lie a little with stats for him, I forget when he went down with which injury, but pre-ASB he averaged 40% from 3 for 34 games last season (albeit on low volume because he played 17 min per game), then went down to 19% after that (which IIRC was mostly after his finger injury).

His full-year per 36 stats were 11.5/6.8/1.2/1.0/1.3

Even though DJJ was solid on low volume, he just doesn’t offer much gravity. Which is what we need most.

I agree. That said, I think the best way to deal with that is to shift most of Pat's minutes to be with bench guys. I think DJJ is a better fit next to Vuc.

[SfBull]

The five stages of Power Forward of Bulls fans.

Denial -- "There is no way we'll run it back without a major move at PF, ownership said they WILL go into the lux tax."
Anger -- "Our off season was Andre Drummond and Dragic?!"
Bargaining -- "We can still trade for a PF, there are deals still to be made. Here's my list of 5 possible trades..."
Depression -- "The offseason is over. The GMs have all gone on vacation. Only news is KD. Bulls are done."

We need to get into the Acceptance phase and let this thread die.

This.
Acceptance is the better way now even if not liking AK's strategy.If we can get a cheap PF vet until October it'll be good but if not let's play that roster and see what they can get staying healthy for all season long.
Let's wait for the starting of the next season.
I don't believe AK will make some move until the deadline unless he can find some taker for Coby.

[sco]

The five stages of Power Forward of Bulls fans.

Denial -- "There is no way we'll run it back without a major move at PF, ownership said they WILL go into the lux tax."
Anger -- "Our off season was Andre Drummond and Dragic?!"
Bargaining -- "We can still trade for a PF, there are deals still to be made. Here's my list of 5 possible trades..."
Depression -- "The offseason is over. The GMs have all gone on vacation. Only news is KD. Bulls are done."

We need to get into the Acceptance phase and let this thread die.

This.
Acceptance is the better way now even if not liking AK's strategy.If we can get a cheap PF vet until October it'll be good but if not let's play that roster and see what they can get staying healthy for all season long.
Let's wait for the starting of the next season.
I don't believe AK will make some move until the deadline unless he can find some taker for Coby.

I guess it depends how we're doing at the deadline. If all goes well, White won't have much value, because our better guards are healthy and we have a good record. So picking up a PF will be tougher.

[SfBull]

The five stages of Power Forward of Bulls fans.

Denial -- "There is no way we'll run it back without a major move at PF, ownership said they WILL go into the lux tax."
Anger -- "Our off season was Andre Drummond and Dragic?!"
Bargaining -- "We can still trade for a PF, there are deals still to be made. Here's my list of 5 possible trades..."
Depression -- "The offseason is over. The GMs have all gone on vacation. Only news is KD. Bulls are done."

We need to get into the Acceptance phase and let this thread die.

This.
Acceptance is the better way now even if not liking AK's strategy.If we can get a cheap PF vet until October it'll be good but if not let's play that roster and see what they can get staying healthy for all season long.
Let's wait for the starting of the next season.
I don't believe AK will make some move until the deadline unless he can find some taker for Coby.

I guess it depends how we're doing at the deadline. If all goes well, White won't have much value, because our better guards are healthy and we have a good record. So picking up a PF will be tougher.

And if all goes wrong Coby won't have much value either so the best time for trading would be from now until the beginning of regular season.But can AK find some taker or, better, he's really interested in shopping him?Not sure he is.

[sco]

This.
Acceptance is the better way now even if not liking AK's strategy.If we can get a cheap PF vet until October it'll be good but if not let's play that roster and see what they can get staying healthy for all season long.
Let's wait for the starting of the next season.
I don't believe AK will make some move until the deadline unless he can find some taker for Coby.

I guess it depends how we're doing at the deadline. If all goes well, White won't have much value, because our better guards are healthy and we have a good record. So picking up a PF will be tougher.

And if all goes wrong Coby won't have much value either so the best time for trading would be from now until the beginning of regular season.But can AK find some taker or, better, he's really interested in shopping him?Not sure he is.

Well AK IS interested in shopping Coby, because he did, BUT he didn't get any offers that interested him. If we don't trade him this season, he'll be "Lauri-ed" in the offseason.

[FriedRise]

OK, maybe not Dalen Terry this year.

Was watching the extended Rico Hines workout, and he continually got cooked by Siakam in the post. He kinda needs to grow into his NBA body first before he can play the 4. He did throw some nice passes though and was the offense initiator for a good portion of possessions, but my guess is if he plays, it'll be as a 1/2, maybe 3.

In comparison, Pat definitely looks more like a PF going up against PG, Siakam, etc. He did get screened a bunch of times, but in 1:1 situations, he stuck with his man pretty well. Still got long ways to go tho lol (PG13 looked like the best player on the court, just played so effortlessly).

[sco]

OK, maybe not Dalen Terry this year.

Was watching the extended Rico Hines workout, and he continually got cooked by Siakam in the post. He kinda needs to grow into his NBA body first before he can play the 4. He did throw some nice passes though and was the offense initiator for a good portion of possessions, but my guess is if he plays, it'll be as a 1/2, maybe 3.

In comparison, Pat definitely looks more like a PF going up against PG, Siakam, etc. He did get screened a bunch of times, but in 1:1 situations, he stuck with his man pretty well. Still got long ways to go tho lol (PG13 looked like the best player on the court, just played so effortlessly).

Terry is gonna struggle this season on both ends. Hoping he gets a ton of G-league burn to work on his offensive game - needs a left hand and a new 3pt shot.

[jacoby1us]

The Bulls refuse to play anyone over 6’7” at PF! This is why our guys get dunked on, trampled over, stepped over when they play longer and stronger teams.

I don’t need metrics to tell me what my eyes witnessed last season. We couldn’t stop taller teams from having multiple possessions after failing to secure defensive rebounds.

Highly unacceptable for Bulls leadership/management to ignore this issue AGAIN this offseason in hopes of utilizing another undersized, undeveloped, injury-proned, inconsistent player to play the PF position.

[ChettheJet]

My view is, what they have to trade realistically, is Coby. I base that on having Caruso, Dosunmu and Green, drafting Terry and signing Dragic. They saw this created a logjam at guard, it's not a surprise. Right now no team will give them an upgrade at the backup PF in exchange for Coby so the plan has to be wait until near the end of training camp.

The Bulls play Coby in the pre season and hope to showcase him so he looks attractive to potential trade partners. At the same time they wait to see which teams have that 2-5 year veteran PF who might be getting pushed to the bench by the rookie they just drafted or the 2nd year player who showed more than expected after an off season workout program. Now that team might think they might as well move on from that veteran on a rookie contract or a RFA deal instead of having him waving a towel on the bench.

It makes a lot more sense to wait until a deal develops than to act like so many posters and think they need to force a trade out of desperation sooner and maybe make a real mistake.

[dabig3]

Looking at this roster, who is Pat's backup at PF?

DeMar? DJJ? Terry? Javonte?

All of these guys are obviously undersized but can be slotted in the 2-4 positions.

Either way, I really hope it's not Lonzo or Caruso. Those two are such great on-ball defenders that sticking them at the 4 (which is usually off-ball) just neutralizes their impact while you have much worse defenders guarding the primary ball handler. It's a double whammy.

Bulls seriously need to address the 4 spot either this trade deadline or by next offseason.

But for now I'm OK with Pat/DJJ. We're likely to see a lot of Lonzo/PG - Caruso - Zach - DDR - Vuc/C lineups too, so it'll be interesting where they fit Green, who is even tinier for a Forward, if everyone is healthy.

Ayo, Coby, and Dragic (and Caruso?) will be taking up significant chunks of backup guard time so not too much room there either for him - again if everyone is healthy and Ayo continues to improve and be a 1-3 two way player.