replace stockton with prime isiah. do they beat the bulls

[tsherkin]

But yeah....consistently beating the GOAT in the post season is no big deal at all.

Of course it's not. You beat teams, not individuals. His team wasn't ready to win yet, and Detroit was at the peak of their game. This is not difficult to understand.

[tsherkin]

My statements are purely in that context of these two. Clearly every player in nba history had flaws that we could improve upon. But some players seem to get unfairly criticized and I think Stockton because he doesn't have the game of a conventional high scoring player, but has the impact of one, gets criticized unduly for it.

I don't think it's that he doesn't have the game of a conventional high-scoring guy, I think it's more that he couldn't come up with better scoring support when the team needed it and his passing game wasn't really enough. Utah seemed to think it was okay to go into those deep playoff matchups with fairly limp ability to do much if Malone post-ups plus system jumpers weren't getting it done. Sloan was pretty much averse to isolation play if it wasn't "post Malone" (heh). And that proved to be problematic against certain types of teams. I think it's something that limits how high Stockton can rank all-time (for me) rather than something which really undercuts his value. I think Utah represents the ultimate maximization of less than people thought they really had. I think Malone's transition from full-time bully ball to more of a PnP player was huge for them, because that's also basically when they became a more consistently-elite offense... and also one of the reasons he had such issues in the playoffs.

[RRyder823]

Zero rings. Got killed by GP, KJ and numerous other guards. It took until the league was at its weakest point for Utah to make a finals and he had to go against Matt Maloney. Meanwhile Zeke was battling the Lakers and Celts for titles and was knocking Jordan out of the playoffs. Your lack of knowledge is stunning to be honest but at least stockton hit Malone with another sweet pick and roll when it never mattered lol

You probably shouldnt comment on anyone's lack of knowledge when you keep on regurgitating some of the dumbest arguments I've seen. Like damn man. You should be able to do better then this

Hate to break it to you RANGZ isn't an argument and niether is commenting on PO success or failures without the context of the team surrounding the player.

God damn the fact you brought up "knocking Jordan out of the POs" as some point without any kind of context is just outstanding. Well done..... OK maybe not "well"

So for the last time. One single argument that doesn't suck why Thomas was a better PG.... One... But you haven't been able to give that yet so I won't expect one now

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This post is a stockton finals type of post, in other words underperforming.

Still waiting on the argument that doesn't suck.

You do have one right?

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[RRyder823]

Are people actually arguing Thomas was a better PG then Stockton?

Not necessarily...

But some are definitely saying that Isiah Thomas in his prime >> John Stockton in his mid 30s averaging 9.5 ppg and 8.5 apg on a minutes restriction in the Finals.

THAT's the OP's premise.

And that's a fair argument. However I'm seeing the "strait up better" argument quite a bit

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[ReddoverKobe]

You probably shouldnt comment on anyone's lack of knowledge when you keep on regurgitating some of the dumbest arguments I've seen. Like damn man. You should be able to do better then this

Hate to break it to you RANGZ isn't an argument and niether is commenting on PO success or failures without the context of the team surrounding the player.

God damn the fact you brought up "knocking Jordan out of the POs" as some point without any kind of context is just outstanding. Well done..... OK maybe not "well"

So for the last time. One single argument that doesn't suck why Thomas was a better PG.... One... But you haven't been able to give that yet so I won't expect one now

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

This post is a stockton finals type of post, in other words underperforming.

Still waiting on the argument that doesn't suck.

You do have one right?

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

Another L post, much like Johns career in the finals lol. Also I get it, you watched youtube one time and probably never ever heard of zeke or maybe you think the discussion was the Isiah Thomas on the Celtics. Now thats not an excuse for you ignorance but its something I guess.

[dhsilv2]

My statements are purely in that context of these two. Clearly every player in nba history had flaws that we could improve upon. But some players seem to get unfairly criticized and I think Stockton because he doesn't have the game of a conventional high scoring player, but has the impact of one, gets criticized unduly for it.

I don't think it's that he doesn't have the game of a conventional high-scoring guy, I think it's more that he couldn't come up with better scoring support when the team needed it and his passing game wasn't really enough. Utah seemed to think it was okay to go into those deep playoff matchups with fairly limp ability to do much if Malone post-ups plus system jumpers weren't getting it done. Sloan was pretty much averse to isolation play if it wasn't "post Malone" (heh). And that proved to be problematic against certain types of teams. I think it's something that limits how high Stockton can rank all-time (for me) rather than something which really undercuts his value. I think Utah represents the ultimate maximization of less than people thought they really had. I think Malone's transition from full-time bully ball to more of a PnP player was huge for them, because that's also basically when they became a more consistently-elite offense... and also one of the reasons he had such issues in the playoffs.

Their offense got elite pretty much the same time they added a guard who could hit the broad side of a barn shooting. Just saying

[tsherkin]

Their offense got elite pretty much the same time they added a guard who could hit the broad side of a barn shooting. Just saying

Hehe. Well, you know we agree that their peripheral help was less than stunning.

[NZB2323]

Was Isiah even better against the Bulls in the playoffs than Stockton?

Stockton:
1998 Finals: 10, 9, and 3, 53.9 TS%, playoff 20 PER
1997 Finals: 15, 9, and 4, 61.3 TS%, playoff 22.7 PER

Isiah:
1990 ECF: 18, 9, and 6, 51.5 TS%, playoff 21 PER
1989 ECF: 21, 8, and 5, 45.6 TS%, playoff 18.6 PER
1988 ECSF: 20, 10, and 4, 49.6 TS%, playoff 20.7 PER

Isiah gives you more points, but on worse efficiency. Isiah won because he played on a great defensive team, similar to another Pistons point guard, Chauncey Billups. Yes, defeating Jordan is impressive, but all that credit shouldn't go to Isiah Thomas. Defeating Shaq and Kobe in a playoff series is impressive, but all that credit shouldn't go to Chauncey Billups. Billups is the only player with a winning record against Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron, but that's mainly because he played on great defensive teams. Unless the Jazz are also getting Joe Dumars, I don't see them beating the Bulls.

[AbeVigodaLive]

The John Stockton vs. Isiah Thomas debate is an interesting one.

You can usually tell the people who watched them play vs. those scrolling basketballreference.com.

- Stockton absolutely destroys Isiah Thomas if we only look at stats... ESPECIALLY... if we're looking at their comparative stats via a 2022 lens. Things like TS%, WS or even PER.

- Those who watched them play often tend to give Thomas a bit more credit. In part because the things that made Thomas good (despite the inefficient stats) are the types of things that were heavily desired and rewarded in a different era of NBA basketball. Stockton was great, but he was limited at times and did not (or could not) inflict his will on a game. Thomas was more inconsistent, but he had more moments where he took over critical games.

Personally, I don't have a dog in the fight. I really dig both players. I think I choose Stockton for his career, or if it was a series and I already had a #1 guy to lead us, and just needed to get him the ball. But for one or two must-win games? I'm rolling the dice with Thomas as THE guy.

[IamBBAnalysis]

Are you adding Joe Dumars, Bill Laimbeer, Dennis Rodman and Vinnie Johnson too? Because that's why the Pistons won those titles.

And James Edwards, Mark Aguirre, John Salley, and Rick Mahorn. Just a full/stacked team. To get an idea of the level of talent Aguirre averaged over 20pts per game (well over, around 25ppg) in Dallas before joining Detroit and playing only around 1/2 the minutes vs Chicago. And their 3 guard lineup was probably the best of all-time. Then add in an incredible defensive big-man rotation and you see why they dominated their short window.

[IamBBAnalysis]

People ignore the fact that Pippen destroyed the Pistons in 91.

Scottie averaged more points, rebounds, steals & blocks than anybody on the Pistons.

In fact, he led BOTH TEAMS in those categories, except points (led by Jordan) & assists (which he was 3rd).

22.0 points, 7.8 rebounds, 5.3 assists, 3.0 steals, 2.0 blocks.

The Bad Boy Pistons were an 80s team. The 90s we're about the Bulls. The Pistons defense did best against MJ in the 80s forcing him to improve.

The 90s were about the best teams & players in the 80s aging out or getting injured, coinciding with Pippen becoming a superstar impact player — opening the door for Jordan to win.

Titles are a team accomplishment. Jordan didn’t win anything until his team got better.

Nobody was talking about Jordan.

[dhsilv2]

Their offense got elite pretty much the same time they added a guard who could hit the broad side of a barn shooting. Just saying

Hehe. Well, you know we agree that their peripheral help was less than stunning.

You actually got me thinking, of course off topic but this seems like a good enough place to ponder.

What happens with Robinson in say his 94 form if he were on the 96 Sonics without BOTH Kemp and Payton? How is that not the best team he'd ever been on before Duncan, and by a margin?

The bulls, blazers, suns, and sonics of the 90's were just so deep and talented. Heck the pistons, lakers and celtics before them were again just top to bottom freaking loaded. Meanwhile stars like Ewing and Robinson had...well Oakley, Cummings, Jackson, Starks, Elliot? All fine players, but the depth started to drop off right after that too. When you look back at the Jazz you realize that Bryan Russell as a 4th starter was a DARN good 4th by league standards, but he wasn't as good as those Sonic's or Bull's 6th man. I know we still see this today, but looking back it sure feels like the talent gap was worse than today.

[tsherkin]

What happens with Robinson in say his 94 form if he were on the 96 Sonics without BOTH Kemp and Payton? How is that not the best team he'd ever been on before Duncan, and by a margin?

Sounds like the makings of a short thread about how dominant a dynasty that would have been, lol.

[dhsilv2]

What happens with Robinson in say his 94 form if he were on the 96 Sonics without BOTH Kemp and Payton? How is that not the best team he'd ever been on before Duncan, and by a margin?

Sounds like the makings of a short thread about how dominant a dynasty that would have been, lol.

You're right, a short thread! This forum isn't made for something complex enough that discusses those non stars players!

[Antinomy]

The Bad Boy Pistons were an 80s team. The 90s we're about the Bulls. The Pistons defense did best against MJ in the 80s forcing him to improve.

The 90s were about the best teams & players in the 80s aging out or getting injured, coinciding with Pippen becoming a superstar impact player — opening the door for Jordan to win.

Titles are a team accomplishment. Jordan didn’t win anything until his team got better.

Nobody was talking about Jordan.

…….this may be the most (redacted) post I’ve seen in a long time.

[tsherkin]

What happens with Robinson in say his 94 form if he were on the 96 Sonics without BOTH Kemp and Payton? How is that not the best team he'd ever been on before Duncan, and by a margin?

Sounds like the makings of a short thread about how dominant a dynasty that would have been, lol.

You're right, a short thread! This forum isn't made for something complex enough that discusses those non stars players!

Oh, hah. Nope. I read that as Robinson "with BOTH Kemp and Payton," not "without."

[dhsilv2]

Sounds like the makings of a short thread about how dominant a dynasty that would have been, lol.

You're right, a short thread! This forum isn't made for something complex enough that discusses those non stars players!

Oh, hah. Nope. I read that as Robinson "with BOTH Kemp and Payton," not "without."

Well that would be a bit much lol. But hawkins, schrempf, Perkins, and Nate McMillan and man oh man is that by far the best offensive team he's ever had! 3 of those guys were 3 point shooters who for the era took enough.

[tsherkin]

You're right, a short thread! This forum isn't made for something complex enough that discusses those non stars players!

Oh, hah. Nope. I read that as Robinson "with BOTH Kemp and Payton," not "without."

Well that would be a bit much lol. But hawkins, schrempf, Perkins, and Nate McMillan and man oh man is that by far the best offensive team he's ever had! 3 of those guys were 3 point shooters who for the era took enough.

Yes, that would be an interesting topic to dive into, now that I'm not being an illiterate hack xD

[12footrim]

since we're in the middle of the summer and things are slow, what do you guys think:

replace stockton with prime isiah. do they beat the bulls ?

i say yes. IT was more of a scorer and would get you buckets when needed. we saw him drop 25+ on showtime on 1 ankle the year right before he started winning

This is ridiculous. Thomas was an inefficient scorer who's peak wasn't even as high as Stockton's. Hell his best statistical season was his age 23 season in 1984-85 long before the Pistons were winning anything. By the time they won their championships he was just the prominent name on team of defenders that drove the winning..

He had a 17.1 PER both season and a .501 and .528 True shooting. He certainly wasn't driving the defense and his scoring sucked. He had one of the worst offensive rating of any of the starter and main back ups. Late 30's Stockton at least was efficient and made his team better and could crack a 20+ PER and .60 true shooting and steal the ball better. I've heard people want to replace Stockton on the dream team, it's ridiculous Stockton high a higher peak, better career and was certainly better by the late 80's etc.

[ReddoverKobe]

since we're in the middle of the summer and things are slow, what do you guys think:

replace stockton with prime isiah. do they beat the bulls ?

i say yes. IT was more of a scorer and would get you buckets when needed. we saw him drop 25+ on showtime on 1 ankle the year right before he started winning

This is ridiculous. Thomas was an inefficient scorer who's peak wasn't even as high as Stockton's. Hell his best statistical season was his age 23 season in 1984-85 long before the Pistons were winning anything. By the time they won their championships he was just the prominent name on team of defenders that drove the winning..

He had a 17.1 PER both season and a .501 and .528 True shooting. He certainly wasn't driving the defense and his scoring sucked. He had one of the worst offensive rating of any of the starter and main back ups. Late 30's Stockton at least was efficient and made his team better and could crack a 20+ PER and .60 true shooting and steal the ball better. I've heard people want to replace Stockton on the dream team, it's ridiculous Stockton high a higher peak, better career and was certainly better by the late 80's etc.

He's not close in peak. Isiah was dropping 25 points in game six of the finals on one ankle. Meanwhile Stockton played 12 finals games and scored under 10 in 1/3 of them. Again he def hit Malone with a sweet pick and roll pass though in game 52 against the mavs.