Kobe to Mavs in 2007: How many titles?

[Matt15]

I was watching an interview with Mark Cuban recently where said a Kobe trade to the Mavs was almost a done deal in 2007. Not sure exactly what the details of the trade were but he said Dirk was not apart of it. How many titles do you think a Kobe/Dirk duo would've won from 2007 onwards?

[CharityStripe34]

Hard to say without knowing who else would be on the roster.

[No-more-rings]

They’d be favorites, if not heavy favorites in 2007, 2009, and 2010, while being strong contenders every year after until their health gives out. That’s only on paper though, in reality Dirk and Kobe is such a weird fit, I don’t know that they stay together for 7 or 8 years. If they really wanted to make it work, they’d be looking at 3 or 4 titles between like 07-2013 or so.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I don't see anything weird or wrong with a Kobe Dirk fit.

If you can add Kobe to the Mavericks teams without subtracting anybody or having salary cap issues like Kobe gets paid the big bucks but for some reason his salary does not count towards the salary cap then the Mavericks win a bunch of Championships. Warriors don't beat first seed Mavericks in 2007 if Kobe is added to that team.

[Texas Chuck]

I don’t know that they stay together for 7 or 8 years.

Yeah while we can never know for sure, we do know these two guys absolutely loved each other's game. I don't know that we had two stars of that level as enamored with the other during that period as these two. I think they would have both given it every chance to work.

Now would Kobe have been able to understand the offense runs better through Dirk? Probably a pretty tough sell. So Dirk would end up having to take a back seat to the detriment of the offense, but probably still just too good a combo for that to hurt too much.

[Texas Chuck]

I don't see anything weird or wrong with a Kobe Dirk fit.

If you can add Kobe to the Mavericks teams without subtracting anybody or having salary cap issues like Kobe gets paid the big bucks but for some reason his salary does not count towards the salary cap then the Mavericks win a bunch of Championships. Warriors don't beat first seed Mavericks in 2007 if Kobe is added to that team.

Pretty sure, much like the KG rumors of the same time period, the primary matching was Josh Howard/Devin Harris. And obviously Dallas weathers those losses just fine with Kobe added.

[falcolombardi]

Dunno

[An Unbiased Fan]

I don’t know that they stay together for 7 or 8 years.

Yeah while we can never know for sure, we do know these two guys absolutely loved each other's game. I don't know that we had two stars of that level as enamored with the other during that period as these two. I think they would have both given it every chance to work.

Now would Kobe have been able to understand the offense runs better through Dirk? Probably a pretty tough sell. So Dirk would end up having to take a back seat to the detriment of the offense, but probably still just too good a combo for that to hurt too much.

Both Shaq and Pau played better next to Kobe. I don't see Dirk taking a backseat at all. If anything Kobe would encourage him to be aggressive like he did with Pau.

[ceoofkobefans]

Before you do this you have to figure out what the trade would be. I couldn’t find anything about a trade package so I will make my best attempt at a trade for Kobe to the Mavs going in to 2007.

2007 Salary Cap: $53,135,000
2007 Mavs Salary: $88,531,846 ($35,396,846 over the cap!)
2007 Lakers Salary: 76,069,669 ($22,934,669 over the cap!)

Now the Mavs were able to trade for Jason Kidd in 2008 that launched their pay roll up into the hundred millions and the lakers traded for Pau Gasol in 2008 which increased their salary cap so I think they’ll be able to make this trade and be fine (although idk the 2007 finance/trade rules and there’s no Trade Machine to check my work on). Now let’s get to the actual trade. If the Lakers are trading Kobe they’ll likely be rebuilding and will want as many picks and young talent as they can get for a 28 year old Kobe in the middle of his Peak. Devin Harris was only 22 years old a former 5th overall pick who was looking promising and DeSagana Dipo was a 25 year old former 8th pick coming off a year where he started half the season and averaged 1.8 bpg in only 18.6 minutes although he’s foul prone and a - on offense. The lakers are a defensively slanted team already outside of Kobe so getting a rim protector should be fine. The Mavs prolly throw in 25 year old Josh Howard as well as he was really coming into his own and was a cheap player. The Lakers will also want a lot of picks as they aren’t getting that Much talent (Howard and Harris are fringe all stars at best). Here’s the offer I will come up with

Lakers Receive
Josh Howard ($1,667,603)
Devin Harris ($3,153,120)
DeSagna Diop ($1,998,000)
Austin Croshere ($7,300,000)
2008 FRP
2010 FRP
2012 FRP

Mavericks Receive
Kobe Bryant ($17,178,750)
Brian Cook ($1,817,141)

Mavs New Salary: $91,601,773 ($38,466,773 over Cap)
Lakers New Salary: $74,826,783 ($21,691,783 over cap)

Both teams are still heavily over the cap but I think this makes both teams happy. The Mavs get the best Big 2 ever and the Lakers get 3 Future first and some young talent to help them rebuild.

Mavs new roster

PG: Jason Terry
SG: Kobe Bryant
SF: Jerry Stackhouse
PF: Dirk Nowitzki
C: Erick Dampier
6th: Devean George
7th: Brian Cook
8th: Anthony Johnson

Now this starting 5 is about as good as you can get in IRL talent in 2007 but there’s a real depth issue on the team with Devean George And Brian Cook as they best bench pieces. This team is going to be almost unguardable with Kobe and Dirk in their peaks together. I’m pretty confident in them winning In 2007 (it’s very hard for the we believe warriors to win the series even if dirk chokes because Kobe will just pickup his slack. 2008 the lakers won the finals but they are still rebuilding and likely don’t trade for Pau Gasol anymore. I think a title run is realistic for the Mavs for a very long time with Kobe and dirk. They could even 4 peat from 07-10. I’m almost 100% certain they win in 2007 and fairly confident in 08-10. After that it gets hard to gauge

[cupcakesnake]

I do think of Kobe and Dirk as having similar favorite spots on the court. They loved to operate in the high-post and elbows, and that's not a spot where offenses can stack multiple scorers/playmakers. It makes me think of that brief period of time when Amar'e was still healthy and Carmelo came to New York. Basically a poor man's version of Dirk and Kobe. It looked pretty awkward out there, as both of them wanted the left elbow and didn't know what to do when the other guy got it. Now Kobe and Dirk were a LOT more versatile and Kobe in particular could score from anywhere (where peak Dirk was more of an efficiency god who picked the perfect spots). You could run more Kobe baseline action (my favorite Kobe triangle packages), and do a little Shaq style posting up for Dirk with Kobe on the perimeter. I think the juiciest stuff is imagining Kobe coming off Dirk screens in the Jason Terry/JJ Barea package. That's just insane, and satisfies Kobe's insatiable desire to shoot the ball, while still maximizing Dirk.

Kobe and Dirk is a ton of offensive firepower, and putting 2 of the top-5 players in the NBA on one team makes you a likely championship favorite every year. I do not love the specific fit here, and I do think the coach would have to get a bit creative to maximize this offense... but the talent is overwhelming and even an uninspired offensive system around Dirkobe is probably a top offense every year.

[Texas Chuck]

Before you do this you have to figure out what the trade would be. I couldn’t find anything about a trade package so I will make my best attempt at a trade for Kobe to the Mavs going in to 2007.

I appreciate you taking the time to work this out. And it looks about right. Harris/Howard/3 firsts is probably pretty close. I would leave out the Diop/Cook swap as Dallas would be in clear win now mode and Diop was a viable rotation center for Dallas still at that point.

[penbeast0]

...The Mavs get the best Big 2 ever ....

I also want to thank you for working out the trade details but this seems a bit of hyperbole; probably best in the league depending on how you rate a pair like Duncan/Manu.

Even defining best Big 2 as best 2nd banana (so as not to include Russell/Havlicek, Jordan/Pippen, or LeBron/Wade), you still have Kareem/Magic, Curry/Durant, etc. I could probably name 10 more pairings in the same rough level as a Dirk/Kobe pairing though the two above are the most obvious.

[eminence]

Hmm, what are the other roster repercussions here?

Kidd/Kobe/Jet is a hell of a backcourt rotation. Do Marion/Chandler still wind up in Dallas to bolster the frontcourt eventually? Cuban showed a strong willingness to spend around Dirk, so I have faith that they continue to improve the roster somehow even if not exactly those moves.

I do think with added consistent deep runs the duo probably peters out after '11. So about a 5 year window where they range from contenders to strong favorites.

I'd have it close to a tossup vs the '07 Spurs, favor the '08 Celtics, and favor the Mavs in '09/'10, quite heavily in '09, with the '10 Suns offering a decent challenge and then Boston tough again. Assuming similar moves were made to Chandler/Marion they'd look like heavy favorites again in '11. Probably worn out by '12 I think.

So 2 heavy favorites ('09/'11), 1 decent favorite ('10), 1 close ('07), 1 second in line ('08). I'd guess 3 titles if I had to pick 1 number. 2 more likely than 4. 1 probably even more likely than 4 (4 in 5 years is really hard to do). I'd be very very surprised if they didn't win any titles though.

[ceoofkobefans]

...The Mavs get the best Big 2 ever ....

I also want to thank you for working out the trade details but this seems a bit of hyperbole; probably best in the league depending on how you rate a pair like Duncan/Manu.

Even defining best Big 2 as best 2nd banana (so as not to include Russell/Havlicek, Jordan/Pippen, or LeBron/Wade), you still have Kareem/Magic, Curry/Durant, etc. I could probably name 10 more pairings in the same rough level as a Dirk/Kobe pairing though the two above are the most obvious.

Yea when I said it first it made sense then I pressed send and realized it wouldn’t even be Kobe’s best big 2 ever lol

[ceoofkobefans]

Hmm, what are the other roster repercussions here?

Kidd/Kobe/Jet is a hell of a backcourt rotation. Do Marion/Chandler still wind up in Dallas to bolster the frontcourt eventually? Cuban showed a strong willingness to spend around Dirk, so I have faith that they continue to improve the roster somehow even if not exactly those moves.

I do think with added consistent deep runs the duo probably peters out after '11. So about a 5 year window where they range from contenders to strong favorites.

I'd have it close to a tossup vs the '07 Spurs, favor the '08 Celtics, and favor the Mavs in '09/'10, quite heavily in '09, with the '10 Suns offering a decent challenge and then Boston tough again. Assuming similar moves were made to Chandler/Marion they'd look like heavy favorites again in '11. Probably worn out by '12 I think.

So 2 heavy favorites ('09/'11), 1 decent favorite ('10), 1 close ('07), 1 second in line ('08). I'd guess 3 titles if I had to pick 1 number. 2 more likely than 4. 1 probably even more likely than 4 (4 in 5 years is really hard to do). I'd be very very surprised if they didn't win any titles though.

It would be impossible for the lakers to get Jason Kidd AND Kobe Bryant (they just wouldn’t have the draft capital for it) and even if they did they’d have to use up any talent outside of dirk to get those 2 it wouldn’t be that good of a team

[eminence]

Hmm, what are the other roster repercussions here?

Kidd/Kobe/Jet is a hell of a backcourt rotation. Do Marion/Chandler still wind up in Dallas to bolster the frontcourt eventually? Cuban showed a strong willingness to spend around Dirk, so I have faith that they continue to improve the roster somehow even if not exactly those moves.

I do think with added consistent deep runs the duo probably peters out after '11. So about a 5 year window where they range from contenders to strong favorites.

I'd have it close to a tossup vs the '07 Spurs, favor the '08 Celtics, and favor the Mavs in '09/'10, quite heavily in '09, with the '10 Suns offering a decent challenge and then Boston tough again. Assuming similar moves were made to Chandler/Marion they'd look like heavy favorites again in '11. Probably worn out by '12 I think.

So 2 heavy favorites ('09/'11), 1 decent favorite ('10), 1 close ('07), 1 second in line ('08). I'd guess 3 titles if I had to pick 1 number. 2 more likely than 4. 1 probably even more likely than 4 (4 in 5 years is really hard to do). I'd be very very surprised if they didn't win any titles though.

It would be impossible for the lakers to get Jason Kidd AND Kobe Bryant (they just wouldn’t have the draft capital for it) and even if they did they’d have to use up any talent outside of dirk to get those 2 it wouldn’t be that good of a team

That's true, Kidd is the one that likely never winds up on the team.

[Asianiac_24]

07,08,09,10, maybe 11. By 2011 I feel like Kobe wasn’t much of a net positive at that point