Shaq with average girth and strength

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Shaq is only a little better than the average 7 foot cener without the extra weight and strength.
Shaq's moves used his weight and strength. Maybe Shaq would have developed a different set of moves if he had average strength and weight.

[HeartBreakKid]

Average strength and girth for what, an nba player or for a center?

If he had the average size and strength of a center he would be an all-star still. He is very athletic and explosive, and has better skill than the average center. His defense might be better as well as he becomes smaller and likely more agile.

If we are taking away his athleticism and saying that is "average" as well, then he would be a starting center. As I said before his offense is better than the average center even taking away his power, so he would still get good minutes.


If we mean the average size of an NBA player and for some reason he was playing the same exact was as if he was a giant then he wouldn't be a good player outside of High school.

[falcolombardi]

Average size and girth for what, an nba player or for a center?

If he had the average size and strength of a center he would be an all-star still. He is very athletic and explosive, and has better skill than the average center. His defense might be better as well as he becomes smaller and likely more agile.

If we are taking away his athleticism and saying that is "average" as well, then he would be a starting center. As I said before his offense is better than the average center even taking away his power, so he would still get good minutes.


If we mean the average size of an NBA player and for some reason he was playing the same exact was as if he was a giant then he wouldn't be a good player outside of High school.

Does he? I mean imagine a dead average center physically speaking who has weak effort in D, no jumper range and shots 50% on free throws. Shaq was not skill-less but i dont know if he had as much raw offensive skill as the average center

Without the body mass he wont get all those offensive rebounds (key to him being efficient in his real life career) and will have to start his post moves from further out where he is less effective

Of course in real life this shaq may develop a different skillset and approach but that gets into a different conversation

[HeartBreakKid]

Average size and girth for what, an nba player or for a center?

If he had the average size and strength of a center he would be an all-star still. He is very athletic and explosive, and has better skill than the average center. His defense might be better as well as he becomes smaller and likely more agile.

If we are taking away his athleticism and saying that is "average" as well, then he would be a starting center. As I said before his offense is better than the average center even taking away his power, so he would still get good minutes.


If we mean the average size of an NBA player and for some reason he was playing the same exact was as if he was a giant then he wouldn't be a good player outside of High school.

Does he? I mean imagine a dead average center physically speaking who has weak effort in D, has average post moves, no jumper range and shots 50% on free throws

Without the body mass he wont get all those offensive rebounds (key to him being efficient in his real life career) and will have to start his post moves from further out where he is less effective

I certainly think his post game is better than average. He has good footwork, a decent touch for what he needs, he has counter moves and does indeed, use finesse. He is power based because he recognizes his physical attributes, that would tell me that if he did not have power he would likely adapt to using more footwork.

He would have to catch the ball from further, so he wouldn't be a great volume scorer, but he certainly could score enough in a supplementary role in 90s style basketball, and could score in pick and roll style of play in more modern basketball (he is 7'1 and has a 35+ inch vertical). Most centers really are not more threatening than that in offense, it's a very docile position offensively.

Weak effort on defense probably comes down to his girth. I'm sure if he was not 300 pounds he wouldn't be as lazy or as resistant to playing defense (and physically would be better suited for horizontal defense). I would assume his motor would be better if he wasn't as big and strong as he is in reality. It's not like Shaq never played good defense, so this isn't purely hypothetical - we know Shaq can play defense.

I did not take into account his free throw problem. Actually I think if Shaq had not become a monstrous 30 point volume scorer the "hack a shaq" tactic would not have existed (at least as early as it did), and it wouldn't hinder him as much. Poor free throw shooters only got intentionally fouled when people really needed to find a way to slow O'Neal down, but in this scenario there isn't any Shaq of that kind.

Never a good thing to miss free throws, but without intentional fouling I don't think it is damning.

[falcolombardi]

Average size and girth for what, an nba player or for a center?

If he had the average size and strength of a center he would be an all-star still. He is very athletic and explosive, and has better skill than the average center. His defense might be better as well as he becomes smaller and likely more agile.

If we are taking away his athleticism and saying that is "average" as well, then he would be a starting center. As I said before his offense is better than the average center even taking away his power, so he would still get good minutes.


If we mean the average size of an NBA player and for some reason he was playing the same exact was as if he was a giant then he wouldn't be a good player outside of High school.

Does he? I mean imagine a dead average center physically speaking who has weak effort in D, has average post moves, no jumper range and shots 50% on free throws

Without the body mass he wont get all those offensive rebounds (key to him being efficient in his real life career) and will have to start his post moves from further out where he is less effective

I certainly think his post game is better than average. He has good footwork, a decent touch for what he needs, he has counter moves and does indeed, use finesse. He is power based because he recognizes his physical attributes, that would tell me that if he did not have power he would likely adapt to using more footwork.

He would have to catch the ball from further, so he wouldn't be a great volume scorer, but he certainly could score enough in a supplementary role in 90s style basketball, and could score in pick and roll style of play in more modern basketball (he is 7'1 and has a 35+ inch vertical). Most centers really are not more threatening than that in offense, it's a very docile position offensively.

Weak effort on defense probably comes down to his girth. I'm sure if he was not 300 pounds he wouldn't be as lazy or as resistant to playing defense (and physically would be better suited for horizontal defense). I would assume his motor would be better if he wasn't as big and strong as he is in reality. It's not like Shaq never played good defense, so this isn't purely hypothetical - we know Shaq can play defense.

I did not take into account his free throw problem. Actually I think if Shaq had not become a monstrous 30 point volume scorer the "hack a shaq" tactic would not have existed (at least as early as it did), and it wouldn't hinder him as much. Poor free throw shooters only got intentionally fouled when people really needed to find a way to slow O'Neal down, but in this scenario there isn't any Shaq of that kind.

Never a good thing to miss free throws, but without intentional fouling I don't think it is damning.

I thought in this scenario we imagined the same athletism and speed but in a smaller body?

[HeartBreakKid]

Does he? I mean imagine a dead average center physically speaking who has weak effort in D, has average post moves, no jumper range and shots 50% on free throws

Without the body mass he wont get all those offensive rebounds (key to him being efficient in his real life career) and will have to start his post moves from further out where he is less effective

I certainly think his post game is better than average. He has good footwork, a decent touch for what he needs, he has counter moves and does indeed, use finesse. He is power based because he recognizes his physical attributes, that would tell me that if he did not have power he would likely adapt to using more footwork.

He would have to catch the ball from further, so he wouldn't be a great volume scorer, but he certainly could score enough in a supplementary role in 90s style basketball, and could score in pick and roll style of play in more modern basketball (he is 7'1 and has a 35+ inch vertical). Most centers really are not more threatening than that in offense, it's a very docile position offensively.

Weak effort on defense probably comes down to his girth. I'm sure if he was not 300 pounds he wouldn't be as lazy or as resistant to playing defense (and physically would be better suited for horizontal defense). I would assume his motor would be better if he wasn't as big and strong as he is in reality. It's not like Shaq never played good defense, so this isn't purely hypothetical - we know Shaq can play defense.

I did not take into account his free throw problem. Actually I think if Shaq had not become a monstrous 30 point volume scorer the "hack a shaq" tactic would not have existed (at least as early as it did), and it wouldn't hinder him as much. Poor free throw shooters only got intentionally fouled when people really needed to find a way to slow O'Neal down, but in this scenario there isn't any Shaq of that kind.

Never a good thing to miss free throws, but without intentional fouling I don't think it is damning.

I thought in this scenario we imagined the same athletism and speed but in a smaller body?

It says his girth (his width). I am pretty sure we are to assume he is the same height, otherwise it's a strange choice of words.

If he is 7'1 and still has elite athleticism then I think that is enough to be an all-star in the NBA. If not he is certainly a starter. It doesn't take much at that size unless you're Javal McGee.

[Samurai]

How are we arriving at 260 pounds for league average? Just eyeballing every team's roster in 96, it seems that there are less than 10 players who weigh 260+, and only 4 of them played semi-regular minutes (averaging 18 minutes/game or so). The vast majority, including such immortals as Charles Claxton, Mike Peplowski, Adrian Caldwell, etc. played less than 5 games and averaged less than 5 minutes/game. Big Country Reeves was the only one who started more than half his games and the vast majority of teams had no one on their roster listed as 260+. Unless we are using a different definition of 'average', it would seem that the "average" for players listed as a center that year would be less than 240 pounds. So a 260 pound Shaq would still be one of the biggest players in the game, far bigger than the "average" center as there would be a noticeable difference between a 237 pound center and a 260 pound one.

*shrug* This whole thread is really subjective imo. As I mentioned above, it's hard to tell if we are just giving him less muscle mass and fat in order to make him 'average' or we are shrinking his frame along with that(as in things like shoulder/waist width and overall bone structure) or what. You'd also have to compare him to other guys in the 7-0 range. I mean isn't Jokic around 250lb after becoming skinny? Listed weights especially back in the 90's and earlier ran notoriously light.

Sure, listed weights have been lighter than actual for as long as I can remember; in the 60's they were usually their college weight and were never updated. But since that is all we have as a quick reference, at least it can be wrong for most everyone. Shaq was listed at 315 during his LA years but disclosed himself that he was 345 in 2000 and around 340 in 1999. So the disparity between Shaq and the rest of the league was already a huge gulf. So whether you go by listed weights or add some pounds to everyone, Shaq would have to be far, far lighter than he actually was to be "average". Even using 260 would make him 85 pounds less than his peak 2000 season, and going by the listed weights he would be over 100 pounds lighter. Taking 100 pounds off of Shaq produces a vastly different player than he actually was and it strikes me that many are seriously underestimating the enormity of that difference.