#10 - Spida Thread - I hate sham

[HEZI]

Well not necessarily, because they have since expanded his role and allowed him to think of himself as a rising star.

It remains to be seen whether he's willing to accept a reduced role in a contract year and be a good soldier for the sake of winning.

The difference between RJ 2 years ago and last year is a whopping 4% usage and less than 3 more shots per game. Yeah Knicks really overwhelmed him last year with that increased role

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, in all honesty.

It's pretty clear that RJ had a bigger role last year, especially as of late December. More touches, more FGAs, and a higher usage. Those differences that you mentioned are not insignificant, by the way.

RJ was better in his role in 2020-21 than he was in his role in 2021-22. He was better on defense, and less inefficient on offense. All the stats (and common sense imo) support this.

If your point is that RJ had more or less the same role (which I don't think is true), then his regression in terms of defense and efficiency should be even more alarming. But it's known that his role expanded, which explains to a large degree his regression in several facets of the game.

Yeah I can see what you are saying, I just have to squint really hard to see the difference but there absolutely is a difference. Role player vs wanna be star type of difference right there in plain sight

[mpharris36]

They probably could. Which is why they may see him as more valuable. And what’s the point of seeing RJ play 4th option here anyway.

because Randle has no future here...whether they can do it this year or next...Randle is not a long term option with Brunson/Mitchell.

but even after randle is gone the plan is to get another all-star. and brunson is above rj now in the pecking order. he'll still end up the 4th option.

RJ will eventually go out for the trade for the next star to play with Donovan if RJ's doesn't take massive leaps too...but he's young enough and if he continues to improve his game him along with whatever picks we can keep out of the deal probably headline the next trade they make...I think eveeryone see that.

Brunson isn't going anywhere under this regime....if Leon gets fired sure...but Brunson is locked here for as long as Leon is here.

[Chanel Bomber]

The Knicks should explore trades of young players for other teams' picks that might be interesting to Danny Ainge.

Lottery teams aiming to make the playoffs would seem like logical trade partners (Charlotte, Washington, Sacramento, Portland). How they rate our young players though, I don't know.

Anything to reduce the number of unprotected Knicks' firsts should be considered.

[Zenzibar]

ask yourself: does rj barrett have more potential as a shooting guard than donovan mitchell or quentin grimes? does he have more potential as a small forward than cam reddish? are his shortcomings not very similar to those of randle's, who must of us want off the team?

aside from being a top 3 draft pick, why are we so attached to this kid

Because he's our kid. If we're building through the draft, developing these kids and watching them grow is the whole point.

See: Boston Celtics

[bearadonisdna]

I'm not giving you a lesson, you asked why, and I gave you my answer.

I mentioned those players to illustrate my point, not necessarily to compare prime Stack (arguably the best of the bunch) to current-day Al Horford specifically.

My argument is that Horford last year was a better player than Randle last year. You mentioned production to make the case that Randle is a better player than Horford today. And my answer is that production at face value is meaningless if we don't consider efficiency (and in the case of this comparison, defense). I do think Randle is more talented.

I don't care much for All-Star recognition. It's not necessarily indicative of who the best players are.

Ok I like that in discussions you don’t have a problem finding common ground when it’s there .
It allows us to move on to reals points of contention .
So let’s account for defense and efficiency in comparing Randle and Horford as players categorically .
Points
Rebs
Assists
Defense
Efficiency
Randle takes 3 out 5.
Really I try to stay away from conjecture but when you say that Julius is more talented , this is where I agree . The days of Horford leading any team in any major statistical category is very unlikely.

Spoiler:

I don't view the game as an aggregation of statistical categories. I don't think it reflects the dynamics on the court.

Let's reset for a minute.

Randle and Horford played completely different roles last year, so they were not going to compete statistically anyway.

Randle is more talented, and more productive. Ok. But he's only more productive because he has a higher usage. The higher the usage, the more you're dictating the outcome of your team's possessions. And if you do it on low (abject in Randle's case) efficiency, the more inefficient your team's offense will become. Right?

Randle was horrible in his role last year. Horford was good in his, albeit a lesser role. But since Randle probably can't take on this high-usage role, can he take on a lesser role, and will he perform as well as Horford in that role? I personally doubt it.

Statistics like points and assists don't matter as much if you can't be efficient with a high usage because they will decrease with a reduction of your role. JVG mentioned Larry Hugues earlier and he went from averaging 22 ppg and 4.7 apg in Washington to 15.5 and 3.6 in Cleveland (on lower usage). That's my view.

Larry’s Hughes regression as a player doesn’t make a point either way.
We are talking a moment in time , not which archetype is better suited long term or for winning.
At a point in the finals Horford was being vastly overrated because he had a good game 1. He came back to earth and looked every bit the role player he is .
Horford makes more money than Julius, do you think he gets away with it on the Knicks averaging 10 ppg?
Julius actually has an all star stat line that is grouped only among mvp caliber players.
If you agree Randle is more talented and more productive there isn’t much disconnect .

[Spree2Houston]

Read on Twitter

From the cavs beat writer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So this should put to rest some of the cavs rumors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ainge knows this. He probably asked for Garland, Mobley, and 6 unprotected FRPs

[Zenzibar]

The difference between RJ 2 years ago and last year is a whopping 4% usage and less than 3 more shots per game. Yeah Knicks really overwhelmed him last year with that increased role

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, in all honesty.

It's pretty clear that RJ had a bigger role last year, especially as of late December. More touches, more FGAs, and a higher usage. Those differences that you mentioned are not insignificant, by the way.

RJ was better in his role in 2020-21 than he was in his role in 2021-22. He was better on defense, and less inefficient on offense. All the stats (and common sense imo) support this.

If your point is that RJ had more or less the same role (which I don't think is true), then his regression in terms of defense and efficiency should be even more alarming. But it's known that his role expanded, which explains to a large degree his regression in several facets of the game.

Yeah I can see what you are saying, I just have to squint really hard to see the difference but there absolutely is a difference. Role player vs wanna be star type of difference right there in plain sight

RJ has had to guard all the top wing players in the East. Reggie Bullocks helped alot in this area but the Kid was solo last year with ZERO help.
Give RJ some Love, fkn Knicks fans.
The most miserable, bi-polar fanbase in Sports.

[whocares1]

because Randle has no future here...whether they can do it this year or next...Randle is not a long term option with Brunson/Mitchell.

but even after randle is gone the plan is to get another all-star. and brunson is above rj now in the pecking order. he'll still end up the 4th option.

RJ will eventually go out for the trade for the next star to play with Donovan if RJ's doesn't take massive leaps too...but he's young enough and if he continues to improve his game him along with whatever picks we can keep out of the deal probably headline the next trade they make...I think eveeryone see that.

Brunson isn't going anywhere under this regime....if Leon gets fired sure...but Brunson is locked here for as long as Leon is here.

The thing is that basketball isn’t like other sports. Basketball you need time with the ball especially if you’re better with the ball in your hands. This is a key developmental year for Barrett and with Brunson and Mitchell likely taking the ball up every single time, and them and Randle taking the most shots…I have no idea how RJ is going to improve under those conditions.

We will blame Thibs but in reality if they trade Obi and allow Randle to stay, RJ is being put in a position to fail.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Read on Twitter

Makes total sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No way they trade Rj Folksssssss no way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Team Robot!

[nyknicks09]

No need to trade for Mitchell. Wait until the trade deadline and see if Ainge still wants to play hard ball. I rather wait for a free agent Mitchell once we can get Randle off the books.

[Reign23]

I don‘t know why people referring RJ as the 4th option. he went ahead of Randle already last season and tbh I don‘t see Brunson taking over this. I have them close right now with brunson more as playmaker and RJ as a scorer.

[HEZI]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, in all honesty.

It's pretty clear that RJ had a bigger role last year, especially as of late December. More touches, more FGAs, and a higher usage. Those differences that you mentioned are not insignificant, by the way.

RJ was better in his role in 2020-21 than he was in his role in 2021-22. He was better on defense, and less inefficient on offense. All the stats (and common sense imo) support this.

If your point is that RJ had more or less the same role (which I don't think is true), then his regression in terms of defense and efficiency should be even more alarming. But it's known that his role expanded, which explains to a large degree his regression in several facets of the game.

Yeah I can see what you are saying, I just have to squint really hard to see the difference but there absolutely is a difference. Role player vs wanna be star type of difference right there in plain sight

RJ has had to guard all the top wing players in the East. Reggie Bullocks helped alot in this area but the Kid was solo last year with ZERO help.
Give RJ some Love, fkn Knicks fans.
The most miserable, bi-polar fanbase in Sports.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

but even after randle is gone the plan is to get another all-star. and brunson is above rj now in the pecking order. he'll still end up the 4th option.

RJ will eventually go out for the trade for the next star to play with Donovan if RJ's doesn't take massive leaps too...but he's young enough and if he continues to improve his game him along with whatever picks we can keep out of the deal probably headline the next trade they make...I think eveeryone see that.

Brunson isn't going anywhere under this regime....if Leon gets fired sure...but Brunson is locked here for as long as Leon is here.

The thing is that basketball isn’t like other sports. Basketball you need time with the ball especially if you’re better with the ball in your hands. This is a key developmental year for Barrett and with Brunson and Mitchell likely taking the ball up every single time, and them and Randle taking the most shots…I have no idea how RJ is going to improve under those conditions.

We will blame Thibs but in reality if they trade Obi and allow Randle to stay, RJ is being put in a position to fail.

He was the number 3 pick. He's had the ball in his hands for 3 years. He averaged 20ppg last year on league worst efficiency.

The Knicks FO want to "win" with second contact stars, maybe including Donovan Mitchell.

RJ has already failed. This is not his year, Randle or no, for key development.

[thebuzzardman]

RJ will eventually go out for the trade for the next star to play with Donovan if RJ's doesn't take massive leaps too...but he's young enough and if he continues to improve his game him along with whatever picks we can keep out of the deal probably headline the next trade they make...I think eveeryone see that.

Brunson isn't going anywhere under this regime....if Leon gets fired sure...but Brunson is locked here for as long as Leon is here.

The thing is that basketball isn’t like other sports. Basketball you need time with the ball especially if you’re better with the ball in your hands. This is a key developmental year for Barrett and with Brunson and Mitchell likely taking the ball up every single time, and them and Randle taking the most shots…I have no idea how RJ is going to improve under those conditions.

We will blame Thibs but in reality if they trade Obi and allow Randle to stay, RJ is being put in a position to fail.

He was the number 3 pick. He's had the ball in his hands for 3 years. He averaged 20ppg last year on league worst efficiency.

The Knicks FO want to "win" with second contact stars, maybe including Donovan Mitchell.

RJ has already failed. This is not his year, Randle or no, for key development.

So let him be the 3rd or 4th option. Reduce his minutes a little, bump up Fournier's off the bench some (if he's not going out in the trade). It's ok.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

The thing is that basketball isn’t like other sports. Basketball you need time with the ball especially if you’re better with the ball in your hands. This is a key developmental year for Barrett and with Brunson and Mitchell likely taking the ball up every single time, and them and Randle taking the most shots…I have no idea how RJ is going to improve under those conditions.

We will blame Thibs but in reality if they trade Obi and allow Randle to stay, RJ is being put in a position to fail.

He was the number 3 pick. He's had the ball in his hands for 3 years. He averaged 20ppg last year on league worst efficiency.

The Knicks FO want to "win" with second contact stars, maybe including Donovan Mitchell.

RJ has already failed. This is not his year, Randle or no, for key development.

So let him be the 3rd or 4th option. Reduce his minutes a little, bump up Fournier's off the bench some (if he's not going out in the trade). It's ok.

His corner 3 percentage wasn't bad the year before last. So, yes, sure, park him there and call him a "4th" option. And then the Knicks can figure out what to do next summer

[stuporman]

Randle is a bad fit...... period.

A bad fit for what ?
That’s the point . He is the foundation. Him and RJ basically .
So bad fit for RJ?
Maybe not the man is averaging 24 ppg in his last half season as a knick

...for winning.

[KNIXFAN_83]

Watch on YouTube

I shed tears on draft day i was so proud of the pick. This would be the dumbest thing ever.

[Knick4Real]

Read on Twitter

Is this a legit sauce??

[RHODEY]

Read on Twitter

Makes total sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No way they trade Rj Folksssssss no way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Team Robot!

I suspected this. So are these clowns going to move both Obi and Grimes?

[F N 11]

Yeah I can see what you are saying, I just have to squint really hard to see the difference but there absolutely is a difference. Role player vs wanna be star type of difference right there in plain sight

RJ has had to guard all the top wing players in the East. Reggie Bullocks helped alot in this area but the Kid was solo last year with ZERO help.
Give RJ some Love, fkn Knicks fans.
The most miserable, bi-polar fanbase in Sports.

They/Them not I