Cade & Ivey

[Snakebites]

Honestly outside shooting is my primary concern with the duo.

I never wanted Cade to be a heliocentric ball handler ala prime James Harden- I think having another ball handler will help him tremendously.

I just think to have a viable offense we need one or both to become consistent outside shooters. Which I do have hope for.

I honestly believe that Cades three-point % from his rookie season is going to be an aberration. His shot looked clean, and on target, but was almost always short, due to a lack of strength, and him getting constantly doubled, or chased by several defenders.

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts he shoots upwards of 38% next season.

If Ivey produces this season like we all hope/expect, it will take a huge amount of pressure off of Cade, defensively.

Cade’s shot certainly LOOKS good. We shall see.

[grpistons]

Honestly outside shooting is my primary concern with the duo.

I never wanted Cade to be a heliocentric ball handler ala prime James Harden- I think having another ball handler will help him tremendously.

I just think to have a viable offense we need one or both to become consistent outside shooters. Which I do have hope for.

I honestly believe that Cades three-point % from his rookie season is going to be an aberration. His shot looked clean, and on target, but was almost always short, due to a lack of strength, and him getting constantly doubled, or chased by several defenders.

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts he shoots upwards of 38% next season.

If Ivey produces this season like we all hope/expect, it will take a huge amount of pressure off of Cade, defensively.

Cade’s shot certainly LOOKS good. We shall see.

It also helps that Ivey can generate clean looks for Cade. No one on the team last year could really break players down off the dribble consistently outside of Grant at times, and he's not exactly the greatest playmaker. It's pretty impressive the offense Cade could create by himself with his supporting cast.

If Ivey looks anything like he did in SL, than the two of them together are going to be a headache for other teams to handle.

[kierkegaard]

While Cade is clearly an alpha, I think he's a team first alpha who will simply do whatever it takes to win, even if/when that means playing second fiddle as appropriate. So he'll always be alpha but not necessarily always "act" like alpha. He'll always be the coach on the floor but know how to sublimate his ego to his/the primary goal of winning.

In a slightly different vein, Ivey is a coaches' son with deep team dna built into his tissue/psyche. So I think the chances are high that he develops a team-first pro game that enhances rather than detracts from Cade's skills and natural alpha personality. I think someone like Jalen Green, for example, immensely skilled that he his, would clearly resent Cade's alpha status were they to play together. By contrast I think Ivey will naturally blend well with that component of Cade. Conversely, Cade and his legs will definitely enjoy Ivey's ability to put pressure on the defense. I can definitely see Cade and Ivey having a Curry/Thompson synergy.

That said, I also think Zeebneeb's post above is spot on. You never really know.

[mattao313]

Not sure where doubts Cade and Ivey could work. Ivey played a lot off ball in college. Ivey will be on-ball in transition and late transition while the defense is scrambling. In the half court Ivey will be constantly running off screens and attacking the rim and hit open threes. And when Cade’s on the bench, the ball will be in Ivey’s hands and he should be allowed to create.

I had concerns with Killian working with Cade before last year since Killian was not a threat to score and didn’t space the floor.

We might still have problems with spacing with Bagley and Stewart if Stewart doesn’t improve his three point shooting. It’s tough to have two guys on the floor that are unable to hit threes at one time.

As long as they both develop and reach their ceilings there should be no problems with them playing together.

Im just on a wait and see cause im sick of always being let down with this team and our prospects. So its not so much doubt but more hesitant to just blindly think we hit gold until i actually see it happen on the court this time.

Yeah I'm with you I don't think it's the perfect fit but it should work. I just hoping ivey develops before I starting talking about fit and stuff we've had so many busts and disappointments over the years I'm not tryna get my hopes up either. I'm going into the season with low expectations

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[buzzkilloton]

Be excited were finally seeing the fruits of our tanking. We wont win alot of games this season but we will be fun as heck to watch.

Sam V just talked about the Cade n Ivey fit yesterday. They called it Fire and Ice. Its going to work out boys!

Watch on YouTube

[MrBigShot]

Jaden Ivey... more like Cade N' Ivey

[Manocad]

I think this subject is being overthought. Cade is a good player and Ivey, at the very least given his capabilities and draft position, is expected to be a good player. I have a hard time imagining a scenario where two good guards dedicated to successful team play wouldn’t do well playing together given that it’s not a situation where both players are strictly catch and shoot, or strictly drive slash and drive, or can only create for themselves and not others, or can only create for others and not themselves.

It was pretty clear that Hayes and Cade didn't fit well together. Cade benefits more from the spacing CoJo provided and Hayes was more effective with the ball in his hands than a catch and shoot guy from the corner.

Biggest question mark for me will be how Ivey looks off the ball versus on the ball. If he's good at the catch and shoot game they'll be great together... in transition as well and with his athleticism we'll also see it on those back door cuts.

Ivey and Cade both need to become good with the ball and have high catch and shoot %s to really have a chance to break into the top 3 Pistons backcourts of all time with Zeke/Joe D and Billups/RIP. If they can both learn to play both ways effectively we're in for something special from the duo.

Hayes not fitting well with Cade has no bearing because Hayes isn’t Ivey.

[bstein14]

I think this subject is being overthought. Cade is a good player and Ivey, at the very least given his capabilities and draft position, is expected to be a good player. I have a hard time imagining a scenario where two good guards dedicated to successful team play wouldn’t do well playing together given that it’s not a situation where both players are strictly catch and shoot, or strictly drive slash and drive, or can only create for themselves and not others, or can only create for others and not themselves.

It was pretty clear that Hayes and Cade didn't fit well together. Cade benefits more from the spacing CoJo provided and Hayes was more effective with the ball in his hands than a catch and shoot guy from the corner.

Biggest question mark for me will be how Ivey looks off the ball versus on the ball. If he's good at the catch and shoot game they'll be great together... in transition as well and with his athleticism we'll also see it on those back door cuts.

Ivey and Cade both need to become good with the ball and have high catch and shoot %s to really have a chance to break into the top 3 Pistons backcourts of all time with Zeke/Joe D and Billups/RIP. If they can both learn to play both ways effectively we're in for something special from the duo.

Hayes not fitting well with Cade has no bearing because Hayes isn’t Ivey.

Just an example of a type of guard that didn't fit well with Cade, which Ivey might not be a great catch and shoot guy either and he also might be most effective with the ball in his hands more with that quick first step. Ivey might be great running a pick and roll which could take the ball out of Cade's hands a bit, but we also want the ball in Cade's hands as much as possible IMO because he also wasn't as good standing in the corner with Hayes running the show last year either. Unless Cade has gotten a lot better at the catch and shoot game himself. He's one of those rare players, that in college, was better shooting 3s of his own dribble than catch and shoot.

So I certainly think its possible they won't be a great fit starting out, at least until they both improve their shooting and really get to know eachother's game and how they can play off one another. It never really happened for Cade and Hayes last season.

[Snakebites]

It was pretty clear that Hayes and Cade didn't fit well together.

Was that fit with Cade specifically, or just Hayes straight up not really being good enough to be a starter alongside anyone? Hayes' limitations as a scorer were simply prohibitive in that regard. Would an incredible off ball scorer be better than Cade alongside Hayes? Yeah, I guess, sure. But even then you'd be looking to pair that off ball guy with someone who's more a threat to score.

Shooting is an undeniable concern with this group- the bigger lineup combined with some young guys who have mixed or dubious history as shooters is a bit of a concern- we're really banking on improved shooting from Cade, Saddiq, and possibly Stewart (who they seem to view as a potential stretch guy- I don't think he'll ever be more than a guy who can hit the occasional open shot) to make our spacing viable.

[DetroitSho]

I think this subject is being overthought. Cade is a good player and Ivey, at the very least given his capabilities and draft position, is expected to be a good player. I have a hard time imagining a scenario where two good guards dedicated to successful team play wouldn’t do well playing together given that it’s not a situation where both players are strictly catch and shoot, or strictly drive slash and drive, or can only create for themselves and not others, or can only create for others and not themselves.

It was pretty clear that Hayes and Cade didn't fit well together. Cade benefits more from the spacing CoJo provided and Hayes was more effective with the ball in his hands than a catch and shoot guy from the corner.

Biggest question mark for me will be how Ivey looks off the ball versus on the ball. If he's good at the catch and shoot game they'll be great together... in transition as well and with his athleticism we'll also see it on those back door cuts.

Ivey and Cade both need to become good with the ball and have high catch and shoot %s to really have a chance to break into the top 3 Pistons backcourts of all time with Zeke/Joe D and Billups/RIP. If they can both learn to play both ways effectively we're in for something special from the duo.

You just named 2. Who is the 3rd backcourt they would need to better than to crack the top 3? Atkins and Stackhouse? I don't think "cracking the top 3" has the value your post tried to assign to it. If a backcourt is just somewhat good for multiple years, top 3 is default.

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[Manocad]

It was pretty clear that Hayes and Cade didn't fit well together. Cade benefits more from the spacing CoJo provided and Hayes was more effective with the ball in his hands than a catch and shoot guy from the corner.

Biggest question mark for me will be how Ivey looks off the ball versus on the ball. If he's good at the catch and shoot game they'll be great together... in transition as well and with his athleticism we'll also see it on those back door cuts.

Ivey and Cade both need to become good with the ball and have high catch and shoot %s to really have a chance to break into the top 3 Pistons backcourts of all time with Zeke/Joe D and Billups/RIP. If they can both learn to play both ways effectively we're in for something special from the duo.

Hayes not fitting well with Cade has no bearing because Hayes isn’t Ivey.

Just an example of a type of guard that didn't fit well with Cade, which Ivey might not be a great catch and shoot guy either and he also might be most effective with the ball in his hands more with that quick first step. Ivey might be great running a pick and roll which could take the ball out of Cade's hands a bit, but we also want the ball in Cade's hands as much as possible IMO because he also wasn't as good standing in the corner with Hayes running the show last year either. Unless Cade has gotten a lot better at the catch and shoot game himself. He's one of those rare players, that in college, was better shooting 3s of his own dribble than catch and shoot.

So I certainly think its possible they won't be a great fit starting out, at least until they both improve their shooting and really get to know eachother's game and how they can play off one another. It never really happened for Cade and Hayes last season.

Your scenario assumes that both Cade and Ivey won’t fit if they’re basically the worst versions of themselves. I don’t think that’s a likely projection for either player. Hence my point.

[Manocad]

It was pretty clear that Hayes and Cade didn't fit well together.

Was that fit with Cade specifically, or just Hayes straight up not really being good enough to be a starter alongside anyone? Hayes' limitations as a scorer were simply prohibitive in that regard. Would an incredible off ball scorer be better than Cade alongside Hayes? Yeah, I guess, sure. But even then you'd be looking to pair that off ball guy with someone who's more a threat to score.

Shooting is an undeniable concern with this group- the bigger lineup combined with some young guys who have mixed or dubious history as shooters is a bit of a concern- we're really banking on improved shooting from Cade, Saddiq, and possibly Stewart (who they seem to view as a potential stretch guy- I don't think he'll ever be more than a guy who can hit the occasional open shot) to make our spacing viable.

Exactly. Cade is clearly showing that in all likelihood he’ll live up to his draft position relative to the class he was drafted in. If Ivey does the same, and I personally don’t see any reason why he won’t, then I can’t see any reason why they wouldn’t “fit.” Good players always “fit” together assuming they want to, with the exception being two “me me me I’ma gits mines” ballhogs. It’s bad players—and ball-dominant scorers can be “bad” players in that context—who make for bad fits.

[grpistons]

It was pretty clear that Hayes and Cade didn't fit well together.

Was that fit with Cade specifically, or just Hayes straight up not really being good enough to be a starter alongside anyone? Hayes' limitations as a scorer were simply prohibitive in that regard. Would an incredible off ball scorer be better than Cade alongside Hayes? Yeah, I guess, sure. But even then you'd be looking to pair that off ball guy with someone who's more a threat to score.

Shooting is an undeniable concern with this group- the bigger lineup combined with some young guys who have mixed or dubious history as shooters is a bit of a concern- we're really banking on improved shooting from Cade, Saddiq, and possibly Stewart (who they seem to view as a potential stretch guy- I don't think he'll ever be more than a guy who can hit the occasional open shot) to make our spacing viable.

Exactly. Cade is clearly showing that in all likelihood he’ll live up to his draft position relative to the class he was drafted in. If Ivey does the same, and I personally don’t see any reason why he won’t, then I can’t see any reason why they wouldn’t “fit.” Good players always “fit” together assuming they want to, with the exception being two “me me me I’ma gits mines” ballhogs. It’s bad players—and ball-dominant scorers can be “bad” players in that context—who make for bad fits.

Well said.

[whitehops]

i think it's good that it's established that the team is cade's and so ivey can work on specific things to fit beside him instead of trying to be a primary ball handler. a lot of prospects try to get shoe-horned into that role and it takes years for the team to realize they're not that guy. i guess it just gives ivey a more directed development path so that they will work well together in the future, even if they're not a perfect duo today.

Was that fit with Cade specifically, or just Hayes straight up not really being good enough to be a starter alongside anyone? Hayes' limitations as a scorer were simply prohibitive in that regard. Would an incredible off ball scorer be better than Cade alongside Hayes? Yeah, I guess, sure. But even then you'd be looking to pair that off ball guy with someone who's more a threat to score.

haha yeah hayes' inability both on-ball and off-ball make him a bad fit next to anyone.

[NYPiston]

Was that fit with Cade specifically, or just Hayes straight up not really being good enough to be a starter alongside anyone? Hayes' limitations as a scorer were simply prohibitive in that regard. Would an incredible off ball scorer be better than Cade alongside Hayes? Yeah, I guess, sure. But even then you'd be looking to pair that off ball guy with someone who's more a threat to score.

Shooting is an undeniable concern with this group- the bigger lineup combined with some young guys who have mixed or dubious history as shooters is a bit of a concern- we're really banking on improved shooting from Cade, Saddiq, and possibly Stewart (who they seem to view as a potential stretch guy- I don't think he'll ever be more than a guy who can hit the occasional open shot) to make our spacing viable.

I'm not concerned with Cade's shooting, at all. You can just see his shooting stroke and see that last year was an anomaly, combine that with being a high end free throw shooter and I have little doubt that Cade will get his 3 point shooting up to 35%+ consistently throughout his career.

The Pistons might not have a lot of floor spacers but when you have an elite attacker like Ivey, that draws attention and creates space for shooters due to the collapsing defenses that need to honor Ivey's driving ability. Ivey is deadly on those drives and kicks (when he puts his mind to it) which will create a lot of open looks for Cade, Bey, Livers?

I'm not too concerned with the backcourt. Those guys are supremely talented and have different skillsets that should compliment each other well once they get enough reps playing with each other to develop chemistry, I'm confident that they'll figure it out.
A bigger wing that can defend is the biggest concern with this team and is something that will be needed if they are to Championship contend one day. They don't really have that lockdown perimeter guy right now and although I like Livers, I'm not sure he has the high end athleticism to be that guy. That should be the focus of their drafting and, if not, free agency next offseason. If they find that guy, sky is the limit for this group.

[zeebneeb]

While Cade is clearly an alpha, I think he's a team first alpha who will simply do whatever it takes to win, even if/when that means playing second fiddle as appropriate. So he'll always be alpha but not necessarily always "act" like alpha. He'll always be the coach on the floor but know how to sublimate his ego to his/the primary goal of winning.

In a slightly different vein, Ivey is a coaches' son with deep team dna built into his tissue/psyche. So I think the chances are high that he develops a team-first pro game that enhances rather than detracts from Cade's skills and natural alpha personality. I think someone like Jalen Green, for example, immensely skilled that he his, would clearly resent Cade's alpha status were they to play together. By contrast I think Ivey will naturally blend well with that component of Cade. Conversely, Cade and his legs will definitely enjoy Ivey's ability to put pressure on the defense. I can definitely see Cade and Ivey having a Curry/Thompson synergy.

That said, I also think Zeebneeb's post above is spot on. You never really know.

Perfectly stated. I couldn't, and did not, present it any better.

I want to see it in action. On paper, if Ivey is what he looked like in college, in the summer league, and he and Cade are compatible, the Pistons will immediately have a top 5 backcourt, when considering various factors.(age, impact, versatility, e.t.c), on their way to being the very best in the league in short order.

That's just to big of a prospect for me to say; "Oh it'll work". I mean, the implications of it working are just amazing. As a Pistons fan for 3+ decades, I gotta see it, to believe it.