#10 - Spida Thread - I hate sham

[Deeeez Knicks]

:lol:

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at least he would come back if we were a better constructed team… didn’t completely burn that bridge with the organization/fans lol

Yea, respect for Bobby. Just thought the 5 PFs was funny and true.

[evevale]

shai's 3% shooting is also getting a little overblown. looking at strictly catch and shoot 3's, he needs help

2019-2020: 41.9%
2020-2021: 43.2%
2021-2022: 42.3%

I think he just needs to play with a 1A, or a proper engine. He looked good playing next to Chris Paul. Ironically, I think he would look pretty good playing alongside Mitchell.

You can say that about every NBA player but the fact that he meets a baseline of efficiency gives me more confidence in his ability to one day be effective as a third option or maybe even as a second option, if he keeps improving.

sga is a 3rd option to you ...?



you're **** dead to me

[JXL]

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[Deeeez Knicks]

So RJ was a good man defender while often guarding the other teams best player and having some of the toughest assignments in the league. But he wasnt a good team defender because he also couldn't guard all of Kemba, Fournier, and Randles guys too, while also guarding the toughest guy and carrying the offensive load. I mean, just seems like a very high expectation for him

[Kampuchea]

He was a regular caller into KnicksFanTV that decided to branch out on his own. He has no sources and is extremely boring

KnicksFanTV has had him on as a guest. Don't be blaspheming The Rev! Besides I think what he's saying here makes sense. I mean, what doesn't make sense about it? Anyhow, let Ainge make that deal with the Cavs and Lakers. I'm content with our players except for Randle.

Not that it makes sense or not, Wingo said there’s a deal “being discussed.” People thought the teams were actually discussing a deal, not some random YouTuber discussing it with his follower Wingo.

[NYKat]

:lol:

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at least he would come back if we were a better constructed team… didn’t completely burn that bridge with the organization/fans lol

Yea, respect for Bobby. Just thought the 5 PFs was funny and true.

He actually admitted later that he was lying and playing for the Knicks was the most miserable time
of his life

[Kampuchea]

RJ getting lots of excuses made for him for being mid. I’ll give him one- the age and he’s going to get better I expect.

[god shammgod]

So RJ was a good man defender while often guarding the other teams best player and having some of the toughest assignments in the league. But he wasnt a good team defender because he also couldn't guard all of Kemba, Fournier, and Randles guys too, while also guarding the toughest guy and carrying the offensive load. I mean, just seems like a very high expectation for him

i think he's strong so his man defense is good but his help is bad because just doesn't move well laterally. he's kind of stiff and....robotic (i had to )

[Reign23]

I'm heading out tomorrow to hike part of the PCT in WA - my man F0urni3r better not get traded while I'm out there fighting black bears and swimming in glacier lakes and standing on peaks contemplating the meaning of existence.

and I am flying from cuba back to germany. so next 10h are the only ones where a trade is not allowed

[Clyde_Style]

:lol:

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at least he would come back if we were a better constructed team… didn’t completely burn that bridge with the organization/fans lol

Yea, respect for Bobby. Just thought the 5 PFs was funny and true.

[Clyde_Style]

I'm heading out tomorrow to hike part of the PCT in WA - my man F0urni3r better not get traded while I'm out there fighting black bears and swimming in glacier lakes and standing on peaks contemplating the meaning of existence.

and I am flying from cuba back to germany. so next 10h are the only ones where a trade is not allowed

We're trading Randle for a box of cigars and you will like it

[Deeeez Knicks]

So RJ was a good man defender while often guarding the other teams best player and having some of the toughest assignments in the league. But he wasnt a good team defender because he also couldn't guard all of Kemba, Fournier, and Randles guys too, while also guarding the toughest guy and carrying the offensive load. I mean, just seems like a very high expectation for him

i think he's strong so his man defense is good but his help is bad because just doesn't move well laterally. he's kind of stiff and....robotic (i had to )

Please don't encourage jimmit

[Ghetto Gospel]

RJ's fine defensively

He's not gonna hurt you, but he's not gonna lock anyone down for an extended period

If he's your best defender, you're gonna have a rough time

Like, he was great against isolation this year (though he only had roughly the 70th most iso defense possessions in the league), he was solid against spot-ups (57th percentile, guys scored 1.00 ppp when spotting up with RJ as the primary defender), but that can mean a lot of things, so it's hard to draw conclusions

He was also solid against the PnR, 57th percentile with opponents scoring .84 ppp, though again, we need more context because PnR is a multiple person defensive effort, and the ball handler scoring isn't the only metric

I guess my point is, I don't think anyone who's saying that RJ is the worst defender on the team or that he brings no value on defense is either trolling or just doesn't watch. And that defensive metrics are still pretty difficult overall because individual defense is difficult to evaluate, especially in the modern day where offenses are so much more advanced that they require all 5 guys to defend every play.

Lot of good info here. I know you said you don't like these charts but its clear he was forced to guard above his capabilities right now

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He had matchup difficulties along the lines of Lonzo Ball, Thybulle, Herb Jones, and Mikal Bridges...basically on par with defensive specialists.

The only 2 players on that chart that even sniff RJ's usage offensively and also defend the oppositions best matchup is Dejounte Murray and Jimmy Butler.

Basically my point is...usually the guys that are required to do a lot of the offensive output aren't required to also expend all that defensive energy on the best offensive player as well. It's very rare.

That is why you even see guys like Giannis with great defensive metric but he is rarely tasked with guarding the oppositions best offensive player...

it's true that his matchup difficulties are awful, but if we were to go back in time, 2 years prior, when reggie bullock was tasked with guarding the opposing teams best player, RJ still had a negative D-LEBRON and D-Raptor, but we let that slide because the team overall had good defense with bullock and elf being defensive upgrades over fournier and kemba, randle gave effort, and noel was actually a serviceable anchor

with regards to bigs such as giannis and AD who are amazing help defenders, you can make the case that it is more effective to have them not play the individual matchup, but to keep eyes on everyone, get in passing lanes and just more or less play free safety. on any specific matchup like say brooklyn with kevin durant, where you can place pj tucker and allow giannis the opportunity to help at the rim and jump passing lanes, i think you're creating more defensive pressure than if you were to stick giannis on him and have pj tucker try to offer help.

[Reign23]

RJ's fine defensively

He's not gonna hurt you, but he's not gonna lock anyone down for an extended period

If he's your best defender, you're gonna have a rough time

Like, he was great against isolation this year (though he only had roughly the 70th most iso defense possessions in the league), he was solid against spot-ups (57th percentile, guys scored 1.00 ppp when spotting up with RJ as the primary defender), but that can mean a lot of things, so it's hard to draw conclusions

He was also solid against the PnR, 57th percentile with opponents scoring .84 ppp, though again, we need more context because PnR is a multiple person defensive effort, and the ball handler scoring isn't the only metric

I guess my point is, I don't think anyone who's saying that RJ is the worst defender on the team or that he brings no value on defense is either trolling or just doesn't watch. And that defensive metrics are still pretty difficult overall because individual defense is difficult to evaluate, especially in the modern day where offenses are so much more advanced that they require all 5 guys to defend every play.

Lot of good info here. I know you said you don't like these charts but its clear he was forced to guard above his capabilities right now

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He had matchup difficulties along the lines of Lonzo Ball, Thybulle, Herb Jones, and Mikal Bridges...basically on par with defensive specialists.

The only 2 players on that chart that even sniff RJ's usage offensively and also defend the oppositions best matchup is Dejounte Murray and Jimmy Butler.

Basically my point is...usually the guys that are required to do a lot of the offensive output aren't required to also expend all that defensive energy on the best offensive player as well. It's very rare.

That is why you even see guys like Giannis with great defensive metric but he is rarely tasked with guarding the oppositions best offensive player...

tbh I think that is the reason he basically broke down in the last few weeks of the season. guarding the best player every night while driving to the basket on O on most posessions and playing 35 minutes a night just kills you.
overall I think he is a good defender, that gets even better when he doesn‘t need so much energy on offense (Brunsons playmaking will help)
if he is your 2nd best perimeter defender in the future you are in good shape. I think we need THAT stopper still, tho.

[DOT]

So RJ was a good man defender while often guarding the other teams best player and having some of the toughest assignments in the league. But he wasnt a good team defender because he also couldn't guard all of Kemba, Fournier, and Randles guys too, while also guarding the toughest guy and carrying the offensive load. I mean, just seems like a very high expectation for him

I think that's the thing is, all defensive stats have to account for other teammates, and without knowing how they account for that, it's hard to vouch for the accuracy of any stat

Like, here's a very simple reading:

Our Drtg with RJ was 111.6, which would be about league average. Without RJ, we were 105.4, which would be best in the league

So, very surface level, we were better defensively when RJ sat

However, you dig a little deeper, see RJ's on/off numbers with the rest of the starters (where we'd rank against the rest of the league in parentheses):

w/Randle: 112.5 (20th)
w/out Randle: 107 (4th)

w/Fournier: 113.2 (26th)
w/out Fournier: 103.2 (1st)

w/Kemba: 115.8 (28th)
w/out Kemba: 109.2 (7th)

w/Burks: 112.1 (19th)
w/out Burks: 109.1 (7th)

w/Mitch: 112.5 (20th)
w/out Mitch: 107.5 (4th)

So, we played really good defense when RJ played without those guys, going from bottom 10 or bottom 5 to top 7, top 5. So those guys are the problem, right?

Well, again, it's a bit more complicated, because the inverse is true as well. Our Drtg went down significantly when RJ sat and each of those guys played without him. Yes, even Fournier

I think what's happening here is just an extension of the fact that our bench was so good, whoever from the starters we put with them played much better, so that's skewing the overall on/off numbers for each starter individually. Meaning it's questionable if those numbers are to the individual skill or because when they were off, it was usually against backups. It also could be that the starters as a whole, all 6 of them (if we count both Kemba and Burks as starters) just did not play good defense together, but swapping any of them out for someone else made them better

In any regard, the TLDR is, RJ was not single-handily sinking our defense, nor was he the lone stalwart among a group of terrible defenders. It's just a question of defensive fit.

[Reign23]

The thing is that basketball isn’t like other sports. Basketball you need time with the ball especially if you’re better with the ball in your hands. This is a key developmental year for Barrett and with Brunson and Mitchell likely taking the ball up every single time, and them and Randle taking the most shots…I have no idea how RJ is going to improve under those conditions.

We will blame Thibs but in reality if they trade Obi and allow Randle to stay, RJ is being put in a position to fail.

He was the number 3 pick. He's had the ball in his hands for 3 years. He averaged 20ppg last year on league worst efficiency.

The Knicks FO want to "win" with second contact stars, maybe including Donovan Mitchell.

RJ has already failed. This is not his year, Randle or no, for key development.

RJ has already failed?

yeah, i stopped reading there.

[Ghetto Gospel]

:lol:

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he later said he was trolling, dont really blame him, we were trash that year

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[HEZI]

Let’s include Randle and Utah can include Vanderbilt so RJ can have some help defending the toughest matchups

Who says no besides Ainge? Ok deal

[Reign23]

you guys are just baiting chanel now

The fact is you're only now reaching the point where we've been at all along

RJ hasn't been a good defender. I'm glad that's settled.

But yes, if you reduced his usage on offense, maybe he would have more energy to expand on defense and go back to being decent on that end of the floor. It's been said for months.

He's a good man-to-man defender but he's not a good team defender. He's awful in help defense and he often gets caught with backdoor cuts.

happens not often, but I have to agree with Channel on RJ here.

(now i feel dirty. have to hit the shower quickly)

[mpharris36]

you guys are just baiting chanel now

The fact is you're only now reaching the point where we've been at all along

RJ hasn't been a good defender. I'm glad that's settled.

But yes, if you reduced his usage on offense, maybe he would have more energy to expand on defense and go back to being decent on that end of the floor. It's been said for months.

He's a good man-to-man defender but he's not a good team defender. He's awful in help defense and he often gets caught with backdoor cuts.

no disagreement at all...a lot of 20 year olds are sucky team defenders. Especially in an environment where your leader is lazy and doesn't play hard and fights with fans.

I think its easier to become a better team defender with coaching and studying film. Being a good man-to-man defender is just physical ability.