ALL BENCH DOG TEAM

[penbeast0]

Create your best team of NBA players who started less than 50% of their NBA games. Must have played at least 5 NBA seasons. BBR.com has games started starting in 1979-80 so let's limit it to the 3 point era. Note that Arvydas Sabonis and Tony Allen played more than half their games as starters (surprised me!).

Off the top of my head:

C Kevin McHale (971 games, 400 starts)
PF Bobby Jones (941 games, 138 starts)
SF Toni Kukoc (846 games, 249 starts)
SG Manu Ginobili (1057 games, 349 starts)
PG Michael Cooper (973 games, 94 starts)

I'd take that team in any year from 1980-2010 and try to win a title with it though a true superteam like the Showtime Lakers or Jordan Bulls would probably beat it and I'd need a bench that could play minutes to cover guys like Jones and Manu who had minutes limits.

[Owly]

Career or peaking together or ...

Anyway some roster possibilities
Schrempf
McMillan
R Pierce
D Ellis
(D Curry as a mention think the above shooters were better
Korver, probably ditto though with some positive impact indicators)
Jason Terry
Danny Manning
Darrell Armstrong
Bo Outlaw
Eddie Johnson (forward)
[edit: Tarpley]

Going with OP convention and not going for guys where Reference doesn't have the numbers.

The Jones, Cooper start number (assuming via Reference) seem to be incomplete. It likely wouldn't put their half ratio under threat - certainly Cooper, Jones's reference total seems to be missing 5 seasons (though if '81 was a typically Philly year he's probably safe) - but should perhaps be noted as such.

[Dutchball97]

Career or peaking together or ...

Anyway some roster possibilities
Schrempf
McMillan
R Pierce
D Ellis
(D Curry as a mention think the above shooters were better
Korver, probably ditto though with some positive impact indicators)
Jason Terry
Danny Manning
Darrell Armstrong
Bo Outlaw
Eddie Johnson (forward)

Going with OP convention and not going for guys where Reference doesn't have the numbers.

The Jones, Cooper start number (assuming via Reference) seem to be incomplete. It likely wouldn't put their half ratio under threat - certainly Cooper, Jones's reference total seems to be missing 5 seasons (though if '81 was a typically Philly year he's probably safe) - but should perhaps be noted as such.

For some reason the number of games started for most of the rest of the 81 76ers is available so we can figure out how many games Bobby Jones started by process of elimination. There are 5 starting spots available for all 82 games so that's 410 total. Counting the starts outside of Bobby Jones up comes out as 410 so either bkref has it wrong or Jones did not start any games in 81. It's a bit surprising tbh as Jones started 73 games the next year but was an All-Star in both 81 and 82, something which rarely happens with bench players.

In any case I think Manu, Bobby Jones and McHale are locks here. I might go with Nate McMillan over Cooper at the PG. I rate Cooper higher as a player but I'm a bit more confident in McMillan's playmaking, while providing similar spacing and defense so I think he might fit slightly better. I'd also take Schrempf over Kukoc at SF.

[cupcakesnake]

I have the same lineup as Dutchball, I think:

Nate McMillan
Manu Ginobili
Detlef Schrempf
Bobby Jones
Kevin McHale

Tons of defensive juice around the hectic and resilient combo of McHale scoring + scoring and elite playmaking from Manu.

- Cooper vs. McMillan is kind of fun. If you assume you can't go a little helioccentric with Ginobili (due to durability, minute load concerns), it's probably better to have Nate McMillan's playmaking rather than getting Cooper's defensive size advantage.
- Schrempf vs. Kukoc plays into this too. Schrempf is a better physical player and more efficient shooter (on way lower volume). If we have McMillan's playmaking, we probably don't need Kukoc as much. But Kukoc might be more valuable next to Cooper.
- No stats on Havlicek for starts.
- Boris Diaw just misses the cut off (564 stars over 1064 games) due mostly to the 251 starts he got in his 4 seasons in Charlotte.

It's kinda funny and annoying that Jamal Crawford and Lou Williams, the poster children of the 6MOY award, basically don't merit a mention in this discussion.

[falcolombardi]

I have the same lineup as Dutchball, I think:

Nate McMillan
Manu Ginobili
Detlef Schrempf
Bobby Jones
Kevin McHale

Tons of defensive juice around the hectic and resilient combo of McHale scoring + scoring and elite playmaking from Manu.

- Cooper vs. McMillan is kind of fun. If you assume you can't go a little helioccentric with Ginobili (due to durability, minute load concerns), it's probably better to have Nate McMillan's playmaking rather than getting Cooper's defensive size advantage.
- Schrempf vs. Kukoc plays into this too. Schrempf is a better physical player and more efficient shooter (on way lower volume). If we have McMillan's playmaking, we probably don't need Kukoc as much. But Kukoc might be more valuable next to Cooper.
- No stats on Havlicek for starts.
- Boris Diaw just misses the cut off (564 stars over 1064 games) due mostly to the 251 starts he got in his 4 seasons in Charlotte.

It's kinda funny and annoying that Jamal Crawford and Lou Williams, the poster children of the 6MOY award, basically don't merit a mention in this discussion.

For real, is thinghs like this why i dont take older players awards at face value.

[penbeast0]

The reason Crawford and Lou Will don't rate a mention is that they got their award for being one dimensional bench scorers who don't do much else. Both guys that fill a role really well but can't fill. This love of pure one dimensional scorers is why I don't always take the SMOY voting at face value. Bo Outlaw, for example, was my choice if Bobby Jones wasn't eligible.

I should have gone at least 8 deep though, since after all, we are celebrating guys off the bench.

So, I will add Jason Terry at 3rd guard, Ricky Pierce as my extra wing, and George Johnson as my big off the bench since my other bench guys are explosive scorers (I thought of Tarpley and Montrezl Harrell but don't want the problems and drama). I'm great with a team of guys I didn't pick too like:

Nate McMillan/Bobby Jackson
Dale Ellis/Dell Curry
Detlef Schrempf
Bo Outlaw
Roy Tarpley (before the drugs)/Enes Kanter

[penbeast0]

For those enjoying this exercise, who would be your choices for an 8 deep ACTIVE bench team (at least 5 seasons in the NBA)?

[Dutchball97]

The reason Crawford and Lou Will don't rate a mention is that they got their award for being one dimensional bench scorers who don't do much else. Both guys that fill a role really well but can't fill. This love of pure one dimensional scorers is why I don't always take the SMOY voting at face value. Bo Outlaw, for example, was my choice if Bobby Jones wasn't eligible.

I should have gone at least 8 deep though, since after all, we are celebrating guys off the bench.

So, I will add Jason Terry at 3rd guard, Ricky Pierce as my extra wing, and George Johnson as my big off the bench since my other bench guys are explosive scorers (I thought of Tarpley and Montrezl Harrell but don't want the problems and drama). I'm great with a team of guys I didn't pick too like:

Nate McMillan/Bobby Jackson
Dale Ellis/Dell Curry
Detlef Schrempf
Bo Outlaw
Roy Tarpley (before the drugs)/Enes Kanter

I'd have Terry as my bench guard as well and then Cooper as a bench wing since I have McMillan starting over him. As back up center Tree Rollins seems like a good pick.

[penbeast0]

I'd have Terry as my bench guard as well and then Cooper as a bench wing since I have McMillan starting over him. As back up center Tree Rollins seems like a good pick.

Tree is a great pick, I wouldn't have guessed that he didn't start most of his games.

[Dutchball97]

For those enjoying this exercise, who would be your choices for an 8 deep ACTIVE bench team (at least 5 seasons in the NBA)?

PG - Terry Rozier
SG - Bogdan Bogdanovic
SF - Pat Connaughton
PF - Jerami Grant
C - Bobby Portis

Bench guard - Spencer Dinwiddie
Bench wing - Luke Kennard
Bench big - Montrez Harrell

I also considered Tyus Jones, Will Barton and Dwight Powell but they just missed the cut. I'm not sure if I missed any major names here.

[SkyHookFTW]

Career or peaking together or ...

Anyway some roster possibilities
Schrempf
McMillan
R Pierce
D Ellis
(D Curry as a mention think the above shooters were better
Korver, probably ditto though with some positive impact indicators)
Jason Terry
Danny Manning
Darrell Armstrong
Bo Outlaw
Eddie Johnson (forward)

Going with OP convention and not going for guys where Reference doesn't have the numbers.

The Jones, Cooper start number (assuming via Reference) seem to be incomplete. It likely wouldn't put their half ratio under threat - certainly Cooper, Jones's reference total seems to be missing 5 seasons (though if '81 was a typically Philly year he's probably safe) - but should perhaps be noted as such.

For some reason the number of games started for most of the rest of the 81 76ers is available so we can figure out how many games Bobby Jones started by process of elimination. There are 5 starting spots available for all 82 games so that's 410 total. Counting the starts outside of Bobby Jones up comes out as 410 so either bkref has it wrong or Jones did not start any games in 81. It's a bit surprising tbh as Jones started 73 games the next year but was an All-Star in both 81 and 82, something which rarely happens with bench players.

In any case I think Manu, Bobby Jones and McHale are locks here. I might go with Nate McMillan over Cooper at the PG. I rate Cooper higher as a player but I'm a bit more confident in McMillan's playmaking, while providing similar spacing and defense so I think he might fit slightly better. I'd also take Schrempf over Kukoc at SF.

Bobby Jones' starts are a bit misleading. Cunningham liked to bring him off the bench early. Until his last two years, he played at least half the minutes of every game. When Marc Iavaroni was the "starter," Jones played more minutes that he did. Super bench player? All-defense every year and HoFer, well-deserved. Jones and McHale are cheat codes for this team.

[penbeast0]

Bobby Jones' starts are a bit misleading. Cunningham liked to bring him off the bench early. Until his last two years, he played at least half the minutes of every game. When Marc Iavaroni was the "starter," Jones played more minutes that he did. Super bench player? All-defense every year and HoFer, well-deserved. Jones and McHale are cheat codes for this team.

And Manu isn't? Those three are potentially All-NBA level players during their prime. If you want to compete with a team of bench guys, you need those cheat codes.

[SkyHookFTW]

Bobby Jones' starts are a bit misleading. Cunningham liked to bring him off the bench early. Until his last two years, he played at least half the minutes of every game. When Marc Iavaroni was the "starter," Jones played more minutes that he did. Super bench player? All-defense every year and HoFer, well-deserved. Jones and McHale are cheat codes for this team.

And Manu isn't? Those three are potentially All-NBA level players during their prime. If you want to compete with a team of bench guys, you need those cheat codes.

Manu was not mentioned in the post I referenced. No need to be upset.

[cupcakesnake]

For real, is thinghs like this why i dont take older players awards at face value.

The reason Crawford and Lou Will don't rate a mention is that they got their award for being one dimensional bench scorers who don't do much else. Both guys that fill a role really well but can't fill. This love of pure one dimensional scorers is why I don't always take the SMOY voting at face value.

But is there any other award where the winners don't even get into the discussion? We debate MVPs, all-NBA teams, Finals MVPs, some DPOYs but the winner is almost always at least mentioned in higher-level discussion! It's just a bit of an atrocity that there's this whole legacy through this award that most of us agree is a near-total throwaway. Going back and re-examining the award... I think there's only 1 year that Lou Will was a worthy contender for it, and I don't think Jamal Crawford ever should have won. Yet those two are a 2-man Mount Rushmore of 6th men in the eyes of most fans, thanks to very lazy voters.

[falcolombardi]

For real, is thinghs like this why i dont take older players awards at face value.

The reason Crawford and Lou Will don't rate a mention is that they got their award for being one dimensional bench scorers who don't do much else. Both guys that fill a role really well but can't fill. This love of pure one dimensional scorers is why I don't always take the SMOY voting at face value.

But is there any other award where the winners don't even get into the discussion? We debate MVPs, all-NBA teams, Finals MVPs, some DPOYs but the winner is almost always at least mentioned in higher-level discussion! It's just a bit of an atrocity that there's this whole legacy through this award that most of us agree is a near-total throwaway. Going back and re-examining the award... I think there's only 1 year that Lou Will was a worthy contender for it, and I don't think Jamal Crawford ever should have won. Yet those two are a 2-man Mount Rushmore of 6th men in the eyes of most fans, thanks to very lazy voters.

6moy is the one award that media gets wrong the most.

But if they can get it so wrong there in the present by pretty much just automatically giving it to the highest scoring bench player....how much can i trust their awards in other eras?

[ronnymac2]

Rodney Rogers
Jerome "Junkyard Dog" Williams
Dan Majerle
John Starks
Darrell Armstrong

Al Harrington
John Salley
Steve Blake
Kyle Korver
Robert Horry
Corliss Williamson
Nick Collison

I see many posters above picking a bunch of primadonnas who made all-star games, all-nba teams, played huge minutes, etc. The only things my team brings are lunch pales, grit, teamwork, and fundamentals.

[penbeast0]

I am as amazed as Thunder Dan being eligible as I was at Tree Rollins. I always thought of him as a star player who only later became a role player for a couple of years after his athleticism slipped. Makes me want to check out Grant Hill (who started almost every game until his final season so not even close).

[Owly]

I am as amazed as Thunder Dan being eligible as I was at Tree Rollins. I always thought of him as a star player who only later became a role player for a couple of years after his athleticism slipped. Makes me want to check out Grant Hill (who started almost every game until his final season so not even close).

Think he started out off the bench with KJ and Hornacek established (could have started at three but either big lineups with Chambers or else EJ I guess blocked him out then had quite a long tail end as a non starter, Person may even have edged him out Phoenix (just looked even in a huge minute year this seems to have been the case, though he seems to have claimed a lot of starts later in Miami over Voshon, where I thought it might have been split leading to him getting edged out).

Rollins like others is in the pre-starts era, having 3 1/2 seasons at roughly circa 24 minutes not counted. He's another one with a long tail-end including a year where he was supposed to be an assistant coach.

Known starts cover 40% of his full career. IF he's the starter for those 283 games he's out with almost 65%. If he starts half them he's out with circa 52%.

Neft and Cohen kind of group players in a notional starting lineup. They have Hawes in at C in year 1 (though despite fewer minutes Rollins playoff starter).
Rollins as starter in Y2 (again Hawes, called a C-F more total minutes), 3 (now with minutes lead) whilst in 4 (injury year) Hawes is designated starter. Rollins again playoff starter when they qualified in year 2 and 3.

It's fringe-y, my guess would be he's out ... probably mostly a player they often start but don't always play starter minutes because of fouls.

I suppose you could tilt it the other way by counting his DNP games as bench, non-starts but that's not the definition offered.

[penbeast0]

I'm just enjoying a fun discussion that brings up a lot of the names we don't talk about that much.