Where do you rank Iceman offensively all-time?

[70sFan]

I think you highly underestimate him then. I mean, he's at worst top 15 scorer ever who anchored elite offenses without elite talent around him and he sustained his production in postseason. He wasn't a great playmaker, but had a lot of value off-ball and was excellent shooter.

He has a case for top 40 player overall, let alone offensively.

That was an off the cuff estimate, I didn’t really look into yet. I’ll take a look and get back, you may be right.

Just going by the last top 100 project here's the guys who went ahead, i'll bold the ones I see as better offensively.

1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. David Robinson
18. Julius Erving
19. George Mikan
20. Moses Malone
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Durant
23. Chris Paul
24. Stephen Curry
25. Bob Pettit
26. John Stockton
27. Steve Nash
28. Dwyane Wade
29. Patrick Ewing
30. Walt Frazier
31. James Harden
32. Scottie Pippen
33. Elgin Baylor
34. John Havlicek
35. Rick Barry
36. Jason Kidd

So that's 24 names right there. I'd also take Westbrook, Kawhi and Jokic from newer players. That's 27. I'm uncertain about Rick Barry, I might add Miller to that list. The longevity is lacking some, but you could argue Davis too or maybe Tmac. So I don't think it's crazy at all to say he isn't top 30. Not an in-depth analysis or anything, but top 25 seems a bit of a stretch for me.

I think Karl Malone, Moses Malone, Pettit, Stockton and Westbrook are all arguable. With that being said, maybe I overreacted and it's possible to rank him outside of top 30. I'm not sure I agree but it's more reasonable than I thought in the first place.

[70sFan]

And you feel he should have?

Are you asking if elite offensive player would fare better than him? Yes, I think so. Kings weren't untalented on offensive end, prime Gervin would fare better in his place.

Not close how? Gervin scored three points more on worse efficiency. It was an outlier year for both, but this feels needlessly stubborn.

He scored 4.2 more points per75, that's significant difference in volume and again, it was Gervin's worst prime scoring season vs Birdsong's absolute outlier in the other direction.

These raw numbers also don't adjust to how much Gervin pressured defense. Teams didn't defend Iceman and Otis the same way.

Buse was a good passer but made Johnny Moore look like an aggressive scorer. Truck was fine enough as a play finisher, but if that is the standard then most starters on competent teams are “good”, and in any case his archetype fits worse with Gervin than with Walter Davis.

I mean, you have three star level offensive players and two solid offensive pieces next to them. That's extremely good offensive talent.

Why do you think Truck fits worse with Gervin than Davis?

[MyUniBroDavis]

That was an off the cuff estimate, I didn’t really look into yet. I’ll take a look and get back, you may be right.

Just going by the last top 100 project here's the guys who went ahead, i'll bold the ones I see as better offensively.

1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. David Robinson
18. Julius Erving
19. George Mikan
20. Moses Malone
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Durant
23. Chris Paul
24. Stephen Curry
25. Bob Pettit
26. John Stockton
27. Steve Nash
28. Dwyane Wade
29. Patrick Ewing
30. Walt Frazier
31. James Harden
32. Scottie Pippen
33. Elgin Baylor
34. John Havlicek
35. Rick Barry
36. Jason Kidd

So that's 24 names right there. I'd also take Westbrook, Kawhi and Jokic from newer players. That's 27. I'm uncertain about Rick Barry, I might add Miller to that list. The longevity is lacking some, but you could argue Davis too or maybe Tmac. So I don't think it's crazy at all to say he isn't top 30. Not an in-depth analysis or anything, but top 25 seems a bit of a stretch for me.

I think Karl Malone, Moses Malone, Pettit, Stockton and Westbrook are all arguable. With that being said, maybe I overreacted and it's possible to rank him outside of top 30. I'm not sure I agree but it's more reasonable than I thought in the first place.

There are just a ton of really good offensive players lol

Gervins results are really good throughout his career though, and I don’t see his box score stuff being bad just because his playmaking wasn’t a strength like his scoring was

On one hand his relative offensive rtg aren’t necessarily as good as being a top 3-4 offense for 7-8 years in a row would imply.

Otoh, a hyper elite scorer that led a top 3-4 offense for 7-8 years in a row during his prime would probably be way higher regarded nowadays

[70sFan]

Just going by the last top 100 project here's the guys who went ahead, i'll bold the ones I see as better offensively.

1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. David Robinson
18. Julius Erving
19. George Mikan
20. Moses Malone
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Durant
23. Chris Paul
24. Stephen Curry
25. Bob Pettit
26. John Stockton
27. Steve Nash
28. Dwyane Wade
29. Patrick Ewing
30. Walt Frazier
31. James Harden
32. Scottie Pippen
33. Elgin Baylor
34. John Havlicek
35. Rick Barry
36. Jason Kidd

So that's 24 names right there. I'd also take Westbrook, Kawhi and Jokic from newer players. That's 27. I'm uncertain about Rick Barry, I might add Miller to that list. The longevity is lacking some, but you could argue Davis too or maybe Tmac. So I don't think it's crazy at all to say he isn't top 30. Not an in-depth analysis or anything, but top 25 seems a bit of a stretch for me.

I think Karl Malone, Moses Malone, Pettit, Stockton and Westbrook are all arguable. With that being said, maybe I overreacted and it's possible to rank him outside of top 30. I'm not sure I agree but it's more reasonable than I thought in the first place.

There are just a ton of really good offensive players lol

Gervins results are really good throughout his career though, and I don’t see his box score stuff being bad just because his playmaking wasn’t a strength like his scoring was

On one hand his relative offensive rtg aren’t necessarily as good as being a top 3-4 offense for 7-8 years in a row would imply.

Otoh, a hyper elite scorer that led a top 3-4 offense for 7-8 years in a row during his prime would probably be way higher regarded nowadays

I think Gervin would benefit a lot from on/off numbers. I don't think people realize how absurd his scoring numbers are either.

It just seems like most people don't care about him because he played in the 1970s and they treat him like another English/Agguire/Wilkins type of player, when in reality he was better than them all. He was MVP caliber player at his peak.

[penbeast0]

...
Eh, they had a good top two plus Alvan Adams, but guys like Truck and Buse and to my eye most of the bench skew a lot harder toward defence....

Don Buse, absolutely, but while I watched Truck Robinson a lot more in Washington than in New Orleans or Phoenix, he was always the point/rebound guy with iffy defense when I watched him. Truck was a banger and a scorer, he wasn't that impressive either as a rim protector or a guy who could guard guys out on the floor nor did he seem to have that much defensive awareness.

Phoenix always seemed to have strong offensive talent; Ice's teammates were up and down. I remember in 81, he had James Silas but the front line was George T Johnson, Dave Corzine, Mark Olberding, and Reggie Johnson and he took them to 4th in the league offensively.

[70sFan]

...
Eh, they had a good top two plus Alvan Adams, but guys like Truck and Buse and to my eye most of the bench skew a lot harder toward defence....

Don Buse, absolutely, but while I watched Truck Robinson a lot more in Washington than in New Orleans or Phoenix, he was always the point/rebound guy with iffy defense when I watched him. Truck was a banger and a scorer, he wasn't that impressive either as a rim protector or a guy who could guard guys out on the floor nor did he seem to have that much defensive awareness.

Phoenix always seemed to have strong offensive talent; Ice's teammates were up and down. I remember in 81, he had James Silas but the front line was George T Johnson, Dave Corzine, Mark Olberding, and Reggie Johnson and he took them to 4th in the league offensively.

I also don't recall Truck being a great defender. I don't know if he was bad or average, but he was certainly offensive minded. At least from most games I have seen in NOJ.

[AEnigma]

Tbh I do not think he was a particularly good player in general, but in games I have watched in his Phoenix days I was a lot less frustrated with him during defensive possessions. Maybe you can attribute that in some extent to Alvan Adams being an ideal pairing.

My point is mostly that I never felt as if the talent surrounding Davis and Westphal should have guaranteed some top offence. I would also not exactly say that for the Spurs either, but I at least generally liked their pieces more. I am not denigrating Gervin — he was probably a top two or three most “valuable” offensive player before Bird and Magic arrived, and he had a pretty good case for MVP in 1979 — so much as saying that the streak of top three offences is about as much a reflection of his teammates as it was with Moses. There is value to scoring well and drawing attention away from your teammates, but without the vision to take advantage yourself, you pretty much need to be Reggie Miller to have a top twenty or twenty-five case on offence.

On that note, I like Truck with Davis more than with Gervin because Davis was more willing to feed him. Even if my personal recollection is being frequently annoyed when he would.

[70sFan]

Gervin wasn't unwilling passer though, it's not like he was a ball stopped or anything like that.

Why should we assume that Reggie Miller was significantly better offensive player than Gervin?

[1993Playoffs]

I’m not the most knowledgeable on Gervin , But I always looked at him as like a Melo tier player or a worse KD. I may be wrong though

[AEnigma]

Gervin wasn't unwilling passer though, it's not like he was a ball stopped or anything like that.

Why should we assume that Reggie Miller was significantly better offensive player than Gervin?

Because he led significantly better postseason offences.

[falcolombardi]

Reggie was also the superior playoffs scorer on top if his off ball gravity advantage

[70sFan]

Gervin wasn't unwilling passer though, it's not like he was a ball stopped or anything like that.

Why should we assume that Reggie Miller was significantly better offensive player than Gervin?

Because he led significantly better postseason offences.

Fair enough, but it's not like Spurs collapsed on offense in the playoffs. They were still quite good. Sample of size isn't the greatest though.

[trelos6]

Regarding team offensive rating, early prime the Spurs were league leaders in pace.

Tail end of prime, they dropped off but still retained their offensive ratings.

I think overall, Gervin didn’t really have too many superstar teammates. Kenon and Silas in his early prime and old Artis Gilmore in late prime.

He was a pretty good all nba type of scorer, high 20’s pp75 on +6 rTS%. Solid numbers, but not top 10-15 all time offensively.

[70sFan]

Reggie was also the superior playoffs scorer on top if his off ball gravity advantage

11 years primes:

1992-02 Reggie: 25.0 points per75 on 60.4 TS%
1974-84 Gervin: 25.5 points per75 on 56.2 TS%

5 years primes:

1993-98 Reggie: 25.8 points per75 on 61.0 TS%
1978-82 Gervin: 27.0 points per75 on 56.1 TS%

3 years peaks:

1993-95 Reggie: 27.6 points per75 on 61.7 TS%
1978-80 Gervin: 28.2 points per75 on 58.8 TS%

I don't have the time to calculate relative efficiency numbers, I expect Reggie to finish ahead but not by significant margin (especially peak-wise). Reggie has longer and more consistent prime, but I don't think he peaked higher as a postseason scorer.

[penbeast0]

Gervin wasn't unwilling passer though, it's not like he was a ball stopped or anything like that.

Why should we assume that Reggie Miller was significantly better offensive player than Gervin?

Because he led significantly better postseason offences.

Do you have the team numbers available?

The individual numbers are reasonably close. Miller is the more efficient but lower volume and in the more efficient era so the efficiency gap isn't as close, though I agree that Miller seemed to have more gravity since Gervin tended to work the seams and gaps or go iso.

[AEnigma]

Gervin wasn't unwilling passer though, it's not like he was a ball stopped or anything like that.

Why should we assume that Reggie Miller was significantly better offensive player than Gervin?

Because he led significantly better postseason offences.

Do you have the team numbers available?

The individual numbers are reasonably close. Miller is the more efficient but lower volume and in the more efficient era so the efficiency gap isn't as close, though I agree that Miller seemed to have more gravity since Gervin tended to work the seams and gaps or go iso.

Gervin’s best years were +4.1 (1981) and +3.8 (1978 and 1983), and 1983 was the only year they also managed to hold up alright on defence.

Reggie has longer and more consistent prime, but I don't think he peaked higher as a postseason scorer.

Considering how close their volume and relative efficiencies are in spite of Reggie facing significantly better defensive opposition, I have zero qualms saying he peaked higher. Gervin held up pretty well, but he was no Reggie.

[70sFan]

Considering how close their volume and relative efficiencies are in spite of Reggie facing significantly better defensive opposition, I have zero qualms saying he peaked higher. Gervin held up pretty well, but he was no Reggie.

True, Reggie faced insane defensive competition in his 5 years prime. Gervin also faced some very strong defensive teams, but not on that level.

[Djoker]

I never realized Gervin's Spurs were that good on offense... Wow! That shocked me. I think top 30 is very reasonable.

[kcktiny]

Truck was a banger and a scorer, he wasn't that impressive either as a rim protector or a guy who could guard guys out on the floor nor did he seem to have that much defensive awareness.

I also don't recall Truck being a great defender. I don't know if he was bad or average

What Truck were you guys watching in the early 1980s?

In Phoenix and New York Truck Robinson was considered a very good defender, similar to the Sonics Lonnie Shelton. Not a shot blocker, and no longer the great defensive rebounder he once was with the Jazz, but a very tough defender. Not quite a Buck Williams nor Dan Roundfield type defender, but just a tier below. Just 6-7 he was built rock solid, and could handle any posting PF.