Options to fix the PF hole

[MGB8]

I wonder if Utah waives Stan Johnson. He'd be a good add if we can free-up a roster spot.

But, but, but, he’s a good inch shorter than Pat!

No, he isn't. He is listed at 6'6" or 6'7" depending on the site and, and, and, 242'. And, and, and he has played more SF in his career than PF.

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Yes, he is. Look at their actual pre-draft measurements. Listed means nothing. Stanley Johnson is 6’5, though he did weigh 242: http://www.mynbadraft.com/2015-draft/2015-nba-draft-combine-measurements/.

Of course, the current median size of a starting PF in the NBA isn’t meaningfully larger than Pat Williams. There are a few outliers, Giannis, now KAT, Anthony Davis when not injured. But you are talking something like 6’7, 230 as your middle player. Which is why he got away with playing the 4 in LA. Or the 6’5-6’6 Nassir Little (and 6’5 Justice Winslow) in Portland. Or 6’7 Royce Oneale. Or Crowder. Or Tucker. Or Draymond. Or Grant Williams. Or Herb Jones. Or Aaron Gordon. Or PJ Washington / Hayward / Miles Bridges. Or Rui.

And while it would be nice if we had a bit more height and length, I’m not worried about Pat’s weight or strength at the 4, really at all.

[Stratmaster]

But, but, but, he’s a good inch shorter than Pat!

No, he isn't. He is listed at 6'6" or 6'7" depending on the site and, and, and, 242'. And, and, and he has played more SF in his career than PF.

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Yes, he is. Look at their actual pre-draft measurements. Listed means nothing. Stanley Johnson is 6’5, though he did weigh 242: http://www.mynbadraft.com/2015-draft/2015-nba-draft-combine-measurements/.

Of course, the current median size of a starting PF in the NBA isn’t meaningfully larger than Pat Williams. There are a few outliers, Giannis, now KAT, Anthony Davis when not injured. But you are talking something like 6’7, 230 as your middle player. Which is why he got away with playing the 4 in LA. Or the 6’5-6’6 Nassir Little (and 6’5 Justice Winslow) in Portland. Or 6’7 Royce Oneale. Or Crowder. Or Tucker. Or Draymond. Or Grant Williams. Or Herb Jones. Or Aaron Gordon. Or PJ Washington / Hayward / Miles Bridges. Or Rui.

And while it would be nice if we had a bit more height and length, I’m not worried about Pat’s weight or strength at the 4, really at all.

I already posted the average size for a PF in the NBA. It's about an inch and a half and 12 pounds bigger than PWill. You don't think that is meaningfully larger?

You ever had someone with an inch and a half and 10 to 15 pounds on you post you up or aggressively drive at you inside? I only played playground ball but I spent a summer in Memphis guarding guys like that because I was 6'4 190'. I usually got to guard the tallest player who always had 10-15 pounds on me. I went back to my apartment beaten and bruised every night lol. I'm not trying to compare the city playgrounds to the NBA, but if I were opposing teams I would bully Williams all game long, especially if he continues with a less than aggressive mentality.

I really hope I am wrong on this one.

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[Tetlak]

Dude there is no way we are talking about Stanley Johnson, who we already cut.

[PJSteven22]

No, he isn't. He is listed at 6'6" or 6'7" depending on the site and, and, and, 242'. And, and, and he has played more SF in his career than PF.

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Yes, he is. Look at their actual pre-draft measurements. Listed means nothing. Stanley Johnson is 6’5, though he did weigh 242: http://www.mynbadraft.com/2015-draft/2015-nba-draft-combine-measurements/.

Of course, the current median size of a starting PF in the NBA isn’t meaningfully larger than Pat Williams. There are a few outliers, Giannis, now KAT, Anthony Davis when not injured. But you are talking something like 6’7, 230 as your middle player. Which is why he got away with playing the 4 in LA. Or the 6’5-6’6 Nassir Little (and 6’5 Justice Winslow) in Portland. Or 6’7 Royce Oneale. Or Crowder. Or Tucker. Or Draymond. Or Grant Williams. Or Herb Jones. Or Aaron Gordon. Or PJ Washington / Hayward / Miles Bridges. Or Rui.

And while it would be nice if we had a bit more height and length, I’m not worried about Pat’s weight or strength at the 4, really at all.

I already posted the average size for a PF in the NBA. It's about an inch and a half and 12 pounds bigger than PWill. You don't think that is meaningfully larger?

You ever had someone with an inch and a half and 10 to 15 pounds on you post you up or aggressively drive at you inside? I only played playground ball but I spent a summer in Memphis guarding guys like that because I was 6'4 190'. I usually got to guard the tallest player who always had 10-15 pounds on me. I went back to my apartment beaten and bruised every night lol. I'm not trying to compare the city playgrounds to the NBA, but if I were opposing teams I would bully Williams all game long, especially if he continues with a less than aggressive mentality.

I really hope I am wrong on this one.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

They rarely update the height/weight of NBA players so that’s kind of flawed. If Tobias Harris and Harrison Barnes can play the 4, so can Pat.

[Rose2Boozer]

Michael Beasley.

[drosestruts]

I would still consider B.Griffin or C.Anthony for PF backup spot.. Waive Tony Bradley

I'm with you on Carmelo. Good floor spacer and rebounder, occasionally still gets hot and goes off for a night.

[Stratmaster]

Yes, he is. Look at their actual pre-draft measurements. Listed means nothing. Stanley Johnson is 6’5, though he did weigh 242: http://www.mynbadraft.com/2015-draft/2015-nba-draft-combine-measurements/.

Of course, the current median size of a starting PF in the NBA isn’t meaningfully larger than Pat Williams. There are a few outliers, Giannis, now KAT, Anthony Davis when not injured. But you are talking something like 6’7, 230 as your middle player. Which is why he got away with playing the 4 in LA. Or the 6’5-6’6 Nassir Little (and 6’5 Justice Winslow) in Portland. Or 6’7 Royce Oneale. Or Crowder. Or Tucker. Or Draymond. Or Grant Williams. Or Herb Jones. Or Aaron Gordon. Or PJ Washington / Hayward / Miles Bridges. Or Rui.

And while it would be nice if we had a bit more height and length, I’m not worried about Pat’s weight or strength at the 4, really at all.

I already posted the average size for a PF in the NBA. It's about an inch and a half and 12 pounds bigger than PWill. You don't think that is meaningfully larger?

You ever had someone with an inch and a half and 10 to 15 pounds on you post you up or aggressively drive at you inside? I only played playground ball but I spent a summer in Memphis guarding guys like that because I was 6'4 190'. I usually got to guard the tallest player who always had 10-15 pounds on me. I went back to my apartment beaten and bruised every night lol. I'm not trying to compare the city playgrounds to the NBA, but if I were opposing teams I would bully Williams all game long, especially if he continues with a less than aggressive mentality.

I really hope I am wrong on this one.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

They rarely update the height/weight of NBA players so that’s kind of flawed. If Tobias Harris and Harrison Barnes can play the 4, so can Pat.

PWill was 6'8 pre draft. 6'7" now. I bet in reality he measures just under 6'7".

Barnes and Harris are both taller and heavier than PWill...

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[sco]

I already posted the average size for a PF in the NBA. It's about an inch and a half and 12 pounds bigger than PWill. You don't think that is meaningfully larger?

You ever had someone with an inch and a half and 10 to 15 pounds on you post you up or aggressively drive at you inside? I only played playground ball but I spent a summer in Memphis guarding guys like that because I was 6'4 190'. I usually got to guard the tallest player who always had 10-15 pounds on me. I went back to my apartment beaten and bruised every night lol. I'm not trying to compare the city playgrounds to the NBA, but if I were opposing teams I would bully Williams all game long, especially if he continues with a less than aggressive mentality.

I really hope I am wrong on this one.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

They rarely update the height/weight of NBA players so that’s kind of flawed. If Tobias Harris and Harrison Barnes can play the 4, so can Pat.

PWill was 6'8 pre draft. 6'7" now. I bet in reality he measures just under 6'7".

Barnes and Harris are both taller and heavier than PWill...

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

IIRC they changed the way the list official measurements since his draft to go from with, to without shoes, which could impact his shrinkage.

[FriedRise]

If Pat's size makes teams change the typical modern "run and gun and shoot 3s" offensive style of basketball to "back to the basket bully ball", we already won IMO.

[ChettheJet]

I'm looking at the predict the roster cut downs thread on the T&T board.

People are thinking that their guaranteed contracts are guaranteed a roster spot and I just think teams are going to go through camp and if the non guaranteed or two way guy shows he's good enough to stay and has more potential in a year, some of those veterans with expiring contracts are going to be sent packing. Sure everybody would like to trade somebody rather than just release them but if they could get anything they like in return they probably would have made the deal already. This is especially true of teams with new coaches or GMs who didn't sign any of the players on the roster and they'd rather just start cleaning house

Look, if all these teams are supposedly going to trade for Westbrook then buy him out or like HOU had Wall for 2 years and let him sit, some expiring guys at $2-12M who they don't want to resign are not going to be difficult to let go.

So since the Bulls haven't made a deal, it leads me to believe this is their way of looking at it and will just wait for some unexpected backup PF to be out there to be had.

[sco]

I'm looking at the predict the roster cut downs thread on the T&T board.

People are thinking that their guaranteed contracts are guaranteed a roster spot and I just think teams are going to go through camp and if the non guaranteed or two way guy shows he's good enough to stay and has more potential in a year, some of those veterans with expiring contracts are going to be sent packing. Sure everybody would like to trade somebody rather than just release them but if they could get anything they like in return they probably would have made the deal already. This is especially true of teams with new coaches or GMs who didn't sign any of the players on the roster and they'd rather just start cleaning house

Look, if all these teams are supposedly going to trade for Westbrook then buy him out or like HOU had Wall for 2 years and let him sit, some expiring guys at $2-12M who they don't want to resign are not going to be difficult to let go.

So since the Bulls haven't made a deal, it leads me to believe this is their way of looking at it and will just wait for some unexpected backup PF to be out there to be had.

It is possible, but barring a trade of end-of-the-bench guy(s), the can't acquire anyone without going into the tax, which seems unlikely for a marginal player.

I'm still rooting for a Coby trade to nab us a guy like Crowder or Kleber.

[chitownsports4ever]

No, he isn't. He is listed at 6'6" or 6'7" depending on the site and, and, and, 242'. And, and, and he has played more SF in his career than PF.

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Yes, he is. Look at their actual pre-draft measurements. Listed means nothing. Stanley Johnson is 6’5, though he did weigh 242: http://www.mynbadraft.com/2015-draft/2015-nba-draft-combine-measurements/.

Of course, the current median size of a starting PF in the NBA isn’t meaningfully larger than Pat Williams. There are a few outliers, Giannis, now KAT, Anthony Davis when not injured. But you are talking something like 6’7, 230 as your middle player. Which is why he got away with playing the 4 in LA. Or the 6’5-6’6 Nassir Little (and 6’5 Justice Winslow) in Portland. Or 6’7 Royce Oneale. Or Crowder. Or Tucker. Or Draymond. Or Grant Williams. Or Herb Jones. Or Aaron Gordon. Or PJ Washington / Hayward / Miles Bridges. Or Rui.

And while it would be nice if we had a bit more height and length, I’m not worried about Pat’s weight or strength at the 4, really at all.

I already posted the average size for a PF in the NBA. It's about an inch and a half and 12 pounds bigger than PWill. You don't think that is meaningfully larger?

You ever had someone with an inch and a half and 10 to 15 pounds on you post you up or aggressively drive at you inside? I only played playground ball but I spent a summer in Memphis guarding guys like that because I was 6'4 190'. I usually got to guard the tallest player who always had 10-15 pounds on me. I went back to my apartment beaten and bruised every night lol. I'm not trying to compare the city playgrounds to the NBA, but if I were opposing teams I would bully Williams all game long, especially if he continues with a less than aggressive mentality.

I really hope I am wrong on this one.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

You would bully him with who ?

As Ive posted before in this thread the NBA PF position is extremely top heavy and once you get past the the top guys the rest of the position is filled with players all with various pros and cons .

We started 6'4 Javonte and had him guarding the PF position and there were only a few matchup's that really hurt us . I tend to think the larger Pat and his skillset can even that out and even win some of those battles because outside of the top PFs no one else is in the top three offensive options on their teams.

Giannis
Siakam
Randle
Davis
Durant
Sabonis

Giannis and the Bucks were the only team we didn't have winning record against with Green or DJJ starting where we got into trouble was when teams had two big physical guys like the Grizzlies with Adams and JJJ but other than that there are not a bunch of mismatches where he would be simply physically overwhelmed because the PF position in the nba outside of the top is simply not a featured position.

[_txchilibowl_]

What hole?

[PJSteven22]

I already posted the average size for a PF in the NBA. It's about an inch and a half and 12 pounds bigger than PWill. You don't think that is meaningfully larger?

You ever had someone with an inch and a half and 10 to 15 pounds on you post you up or aggressively drive at you inside? I only played playground ball but I spent a summer in Memphis guarding guys like that because I was 6'4 190'. I usually got to guard the tallest player who always had 10-15 pounds on me. I went back to my apartment beaten and bruised every night lol. I'm not trying to compare the city playgrounds to the NBA, but if I were opposing teams I would bully Williams all game long, especially if he continues with a less than aggressive mentality.

I really hope I am wrong on this one.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

They rarely update the height/weight of NBA players so that’s kind of flawed. If Tobias Harris and Harrison Barnes can play the 4, so can Pat.

PWill was 6'8 pre draft. 6'7" now. I bet in reality he measures just under 6'7".

Barnes and Harris are both taller and heavier than PWill...

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

He has a comparable build and strength to those guys. The average size of PF has went down every year. It’s about 6’8” 223. He’s around that size. Plus the game isn’t nearly as physical as it used to be. 6’6” Jae Crowder and 6’7” Robert Covington play the 4. He’s fine at that position. He doesn’t have the lateral quickness to play the 3 consistently.

[Stratmaster]

They rarely update the height/weight of NBA players so that’s kind of flawed. If Tobias Harris and Harrison Barnes can play the 4, so can Pat.

PWill was 6'8 pre draft. 6'7" now. I bet in reality he measures just under 6'7".

Barnes and Harris are both taller and heavier than PWill...

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

He has a comparable build and strength to those guys. The average size of PF has went down every year. It’s about 6’8” 223. He’s around that size. Plus the game isn’t nearly as physical as it used to be. 6’6” Jae Crowder and 6’7” Robert Covington play the 4. He’s fine at that position. He doesn’t have the lateral quickness to play the 3 consistently.

In effect, the arguments I am seeing are not that PWill can be a quality starting big. They are that a quality big isn't needed.

There is no debating that PWill is, by comparison, small for the PF spot. He is almost exactly the average size and weight of a SF.

The Bulls success early with Javonte was due to his energy level. ("There are 5 Javonte Greens on the floor") but it was still sub-par play at the 4. Later in the season that all went away. I have never seen Pat play at that energy level for a half of a game, more or less half a season.

So the debate isn't really whether PWill is a PF. It is whether or not this team needs a starting PF. I believe they do. I believe the lack of size paired with Vuc is going to be a big issue. I hope I am wrong.

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[Stratmaster]

Yes, he is. Look at their actual pre-draft measurements. Listed means nothing. Stanley Johnson is 6’5, though he did weigh 242: http://www.mynbadraft.com/2015-draft/2015-nba-draft-combine-measurements/.

Of course, the current median size of a starting PF in the NBA isn’t meaningfully larger than Pat Williams. There are a few outliers, Giannis, now KAT, Anthony Davis when not injured. But you are talking something like 6’7, 230 as your middle player. Which is why he got away with playing the 4 in LA. Or the 6’5-6’6 Nassir Little (and 6’5 Justice Winslow) in Portland. Or 6’7 Royce Oneale. Or Crowder. Or Tucker. Or Draymond. Or Grant Williams. Or Herb Jones. Or Aaron Gordon. Or PJ Washington / Hayward / Miles Bridges. Or Rui.

And while it would be nice if we had a bit more height and length, I’m not worried about Pat’s weight or strength at the 4, really at all.

I already posted the average size for a PF in the NBA. It's about an inch and a half and 12 pounds bigger than PWill. You don't think that is meaningfully larger?

You ever had someone with an inch and a half and 10 to 15 pounds on you post you up or aggressively drive at you inside? I only played playground ball but I spent a summer in Memphis guarding guys like that because I was 6'4 190'. I usually got to guard the tallest player who always had 10-15 pounds on me. I went back to my apartment beaten and bruised every night lol. I'm not trying to compare the city playgrounds to the NBA, but if I were opposing teams I would bully Williams all game long, especially if he continues with a less than aggressive mentality.

I really hope I am wrong on this one.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

You would bully him with who ?

As Ive posted before in this thread the NBA PF position is extremely top heavy and once you get past the the top guys the rest of the position is filled with players all with various pros and cons .

We started 6'4 Javonte and had him guarding the PF position and there were only a few matchup's that really hurt us . I tend to think the larger Pat and his skillset can even that out and even win some of those battles because outside of the top PFs no one else is in the top three offensive options on their teams.

Giannis
Siakam
Randle
Davis
Durant
Sabonis

Giannis and the Bucks were the only team we didn't have winning record against with Green or DJJ starting where we got into trouble was when teams had two big physical guys like the Grizzlies with Adams and JJJ but other than that there are not a bunch of mismatches where he would be simply physically overwhelmed because the PF position in the nba outside of the top is simply not a featured position.

A quality starter who plays big has a lot more effect on the court than one on one match-ups against opposing PF'S.

I talked about Green's success in my last post. If I thought PWill could match Green's first half of the season energy level I would be less worried.

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[sco]

PWill was 6'8 pre draft. 6'7" now. I bet in reality he measures just under 6'7".

Barnes and Harris are both taller and heavier than PWill...

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

He has a comparable build and strength to those guys. The average size of PF has went down every year. It’s about 6’8” 223. He’s around that size. Plus the game isn’t nearly as physical as it used to be. 6’6” Jae Crowder and 6’7” Robert Covington play the 4. He’s fine at that position. He doesn’t have the lateral quickness to play the 3 consistently.

In effect, the arguments I am seeing are not that PWill can be a quality starting big. They are that a quality big isn't needed.

There is no debating that PWill is, by comparison, small for the PF spot. He is almost exactly the average size and weight of a SF.

The Bulls success early with Javonte was due to his energy level. ("There are 5 Javonte Greens on the floor") but it was still sub-par play at the 4. Later in the season that all went away. I have never seen Pat play at that energy level for a half of a game, more or less half a season.

So the debate isn't really whether PWill is a PF. It is whether or not this team needs a starting PF. I believe they do. I believe the lack of size paired with Vuc is going to be a big issue. I hope I am wrong.

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Not that I am a Green defender, but IIRC, his game fell-off after an injury that he played through. That said, I would be happy if he were traded because I'd rather play DJJ at back-up PF, but Billy wanted him playing C and behind Green.

As to the debate, I thought it was more about the backup PF since Pat seemed locked into the starting job. Now I agree that Pat doesn't bring the sort of rim protection that we need to make up for Vuc's limitations. That said, I am fine with Pat at PF...the problem is Vuc, but that seemingly isn't getting fixed anytime soon. I just don't want Vuc extended.

Back to my DJJ point, I think our best bet heading into the season is the shift 18 min or so of Pat's time with the bench guys and DJJ playing next to Vuc. DJJ isn't a superstar at shot blocking or 3pt shooting, but he is passable at both and is a switchable defender. As I mentioned in another post, the shift would also get Pat more shots, playing alongside Dragon, Caruso, Green and Drummond.

[chitownsports4ever]

PWill was 6'8 pre draft. 6'7" now. I bet in reality he measures just under 6'7".

Barnes and Harris are both taller and heavier than PWill...

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

He has a comparable build and strength to those guys. The average size of PF has went down every year. It’s about 6’8” 223. He’s around that size. Plus the game isn’t nearly as physical as it used to be. 6’6” Jae Crowder and 6’7” Robert Covington play the 4. He’s fine at that position. He doesn’t have the lateral quickness to play the 3 consistently.

In effect, the arguments I am seeing are not that PWill can be a quality starting big. They are that a quality big isn't needed.

There is no debating that PWill is, by comparison, small for the PF spot. He is almost exactly the average size and weight of a SF.

The Bulls success early with Javonte was due to his energy level. ("There are 5 Javonte Greens on the floor") but it was still sub-par play at the 4. Later in the season that all went away. I have never seen Pat play at that energy level for a half of a game, more or less half a season.

So the debate isn't really whether PWill is a PF. It is whether or not this team needs a starting PF. I believe they do. I believe the lack of size paired with Vuc is going to be a big issue. I hope I am wrong.

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Javonte has al limited skill level so of course all he could bring was his energy level . Pat has skill so he doesn't have to match Javonte's energy level to have as big of or even greater impact on the game. But with that said this is where I think the problem comes from.

% of minutes at PF

DeRozan 38%
Green 7%


DeRozan played the majority of minutes at PF with Green taking on the scoring SF who was usually one of the opponents top 2 scorers and that would more than likely continue with Pat . The problem with believing that we should have gotten a bigger PF is that you are locking Derozan into having to guard the SF position which is quite deep.

We don't need a PF with size simply to pair with Vuc because our PF spot is basically being used to hide Demar and a PF with size doesn't alleviate that issue . Pat at forward continues to allow us to hide Demar as Demar will continue to take the weaker matchup offensively.

[PJSteven22]

PWill was 6'8 pre draft. 6'7" now. I bet in reality he measures just under 6'7".

Barnes and Harris are both taller and heavier than PWill...

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

He has a comparable build and strength to those guys. The average size of PF has went down every year. It’s about 6’8” 223. He’s around that size. Plus the game isn’t nearly as physical as it used to be. 6’6” Jae Crowder and 6’7” Robert Covington play the 4. He’s fine at that position. He doesn’t have the lateral quickness to play the 3 consistently.

In effect, the arguments I am seeing are not that PWill can be a quality starting big. They are that a quality big isn't needed.

There is no debating that PWill is, by comparison, small for the PF spot. He is almost exactly the average size and weight of a SF.

The Bulls success early with Javonte was due to his energy level. ("There are 5 Javonte Greens on the floor") but it was still sub-par play at the 4. Later in the season that all went away. I have never seen Pat play at that energy level for a half of a game, more or less half a season.

So the debate isn't really whether PWill is a PF. It is whether or not this team needs a starting PF. I believe they do. I believe the lack of size paired with Vuc is going to be a big issue. I hope I am wrong.

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The problem is more so Vuc than Pat. He’s simply doesn’t bring the rim protection we need and gets hunted on defense. PF and SF are becoming more interchangeable. This is not 1995.

[chitownsports4ever]

He has a comparable build and strength to those guys. The average size of PF has went down every year. It’s about 6’8” 223. He’s around that size. Plus the game isn’t nearly as physical as it used to be. 6’6” Jae Crowder and 6’7” Robert Covington play the 4. He’s fine at that position. He doesn’t have the lateral quickness to play the 3 consistently.

In effect, the arguments I am seeing are not that PWill can be a quality starting big. They are that a quality big isn't needed.

There is no debating that PWill is, by comparison, small for the PF spot. He is almost exactly the average size and weight of a SF.

The Bulls success early with Javonte was due to his energy level. ("There are 5 Javonte Greens on the floor") but it was still sub-par play at the 4. Later in the season that all went away. I have never seen Pat play at that energy level for a half of a game, more or less half a season.

So the debate isn't really whether PWill is a PF. It is whether or not this team needs a starting PF. I believe they do. I believe the lack of size paired with Vuc is going to be a big issue. I hope I am wrong.

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The problem is more so Vuc than Pat. He’s simply doesn’t bring the rim protection we need and gets hunted on defense. PF and SF are becoming more interchangeable. This is not 1995.

The problem is not Vooch and rim protection if it was they could have easily sold out on any of the available rim protectors available in free agency. The problem is that our PF spot is used to hide Demar and while on offense hes godly in insolation on defense hes non existent in every way possible and all bringing in a rim protector with limited offense does is make you more reliant on Demar being on the court.

As I showed above Demar spent 38% of the time at PF the most on the team but hes not bringing the same defensive hustle that Javonte or Pat brings in terms of help defense and even attempting to challenge shots. Ayo is second on this team in challenging 2 pt shots go find another team in which a backup PG is second on a team in challenging shots with supposedly interchangeable forwards