Please list your All-Time Top 10 while applying these minimum requirments

[LAL1947]

It has been ironically and rightly pointed out on many occasions... there are currently 15 or more players in the All-Time Top 10. So this got me thinking... we really need to raise the bar for entry into the All-Time Top 10!

To that end, I would like to propose that we raise the bar for inclusion to a minimum of:

1) 30,000 RS points... or...
2) 2x DPOTY if don't have 30,000 points... or...
3) Leading the league in assists per game for at least 3x seasons if don't have either 30,000 points or 2x DPOTY... or...
4) 3x MVP titles if don't have either 33,000 points, 2x DPOTY, or led the league in APG for 3x seasons.

This way all bases will be covered, by including those who were truly exceptional at scoring, play-making or defense for long periods of time. By the way, I've used multiples of 3 as the basis for Points (30,000), Assists (3x seasons), MVPs (3x)... while only 2x for DPOTY, as I feel it is harder to get 2 or more DPOTYs with the pool of defensive players being larger.

No doubt some will hate this because their favorite players don't meet these non-subjective criteria, even though provision has been made for some subjectivity by including 3x MVPs as a criteria.

As a fun thought exercise, requesting all to please list out your Top 10s... applying these 4 criteria very strictly.

[Jaivl]

1. KOBE BRYANT
2. KOBE BRYANT
3. KOBE BRYANT
4. KOBE BRYANT
5. KOBE BRYANT
6. KOBE BRYANT
7. KOBE BRYANT
8. KOBE BRYANT
9. KOBE BRYANT
10. KOBE BRYANT
...
99999. TIM"MEH" DUH-N-CAN'T

Are you happy now?

[LAL1947]

Are you happy now?

First, MJ is the GOAT.

Second, can't you just play along? We always say there are 15 or more players in the Top 10, so I'm just trying something different for fun. This is 4 criteria I've come up with... but the PC Board could and should come up with its own set of minimum non-subjective requirements as a group, or there will be 20+ players in the Top 10 in a few years.

[AEnigma]

1. Steve Nash
2. Chris Paul
3. Jason Kidd
4. Rudy Gobert
5. Dikembe Mutombo
6. Ben Wallace
7. Dwight Howard
8. Rajon Rondo
9. Kevin Porter
10. Bob Cousy

[70sFan]

So no great defender from pre-1982 belongs, because the DPOY award didn't exist back then. No player pre-1956 belongs, because of no MVPs.

Doesn't look too good for me.

[falcolombardi]

My criteria:have at least 2 mvps/dpoy/ 3 fmvps

Lebron,jordan, kareem, russel,shaq,duncan,magic,wilt hakeem, bird make up the top 10

This should cover all bases and make for the fairest top 10

[Colbinii]

The idea of adding subjectively chosen, statistical requirements or accolade requirements goes against what many who analyze basketball level at the highest level are attempting to achieve, which is an Unbiased [as much as a human can achieve] analysis built on what each person values [which is subjective].

At this point, a Top 10 or Top 100 list should simply be sorted by VORP and it would be a better list than the criteria set forth in this thread.

Fun Fact: I work in a Kobe Bryant Jersey from Mexico 3-4 days per week.

[LAL1947]

So no great defender from pre-1982 belongs, because the DPOY award didn't exist back then. No player pre-1956 belongs, because of no MVPs.

Doesn't look too good for me.

I've just thrown this thread together quickly. So please suggest replacement criteria to use instead of DPOTY and MVP, for those years when these two awards didn't exist.

[70sFan]

So no great defender from pre-1982 belongs, because the DPOY award didn't exist back then. No player pre-1956 belongs, because of no MVPs.

Doesn't look too good for me.

I've just thrown this thread together quickly. So please suggest replacement criteria to use instead of DPOTY and MVP, for those years when these two awards didn't exist.

I would start with using less subjective things than MVP voting results.

[LAL1947]

So no great defender from pre-1982 belongs, because the DPOY award didn't exist back then. No player pre-1956 belongs, because of no MVPs.

Doesn't look too good for me.

I've just thrown this thread together quickly. So please suggest replacement criteria to use instead of DPOTY and MVP, for those years when these two awards didn't exist.

I would start with using less subjective things than MVP voting results.

I included MVPs with a high number of them needed, 3x, being a highly subjective award with some dubious ones handed out in the past... to catch any players who fall through the net by not having 30k points, 3x seasons leading the league in assists, or 2x DPOTY awards. The idea there is to include those players who may not have been the best in the league at scoring, play-making or defense but were good enough to earn 3x MVPs.

[AEnigma]

Here is an attempt to not make these player ranges so ludicrous.

Need to achieve at least three of any of the following:
- At least two titles
- At least 30,000 combined regular and postseason points
- At least two MVPs
- At least three Finals MVPs
- At least 15,000 combined regular and postseason rebounds
- At least 10,000 combined regular and postseason assists
- At least 3,000 combined regular and postseason blocks
- At least 2,400 combined regular and postseason steals
- At least two DPoYs

Nice and basic. I think anyone who cannot meet those simple standards is clearly not a well-rounded player and has no business being in the top ten.

EDIT: Lmao glad I got you to +1 this before you realised what I did.

EDIT2: So as to not be unfair to truly elite defenders, I added steals, blocks, and DPoYs. Again not something Wilt and Russell could access, but those two safely met the original narrower standards anyway.

[falcolombardi]

I've just thrown this thread together quickly. So please suggest replacement criteria to use instead of DPOTY and MVP, for those years when these two awards didn't exist.

I would start with using less subjective things than MVP voting results.

I've included MVPs as the 4th criteria (with a high number of them needed, 3x, being a highly subjective award with some dubious ones handed out in the past)... to catch any players who fall through the net by not having 30k points, 3x seasons leading the league in assists, or 2x DPOTY awards. The idea there is to include those players who may not have been the best in the league at scoring, play-making or defense but were good enough to earn 3x MVPs.

I would make multiple mvps a prerequisite criteria tho

Anyone who is supposed to be a top 10 player ever should be able to win multiple mvps, how can you be top 10 otherwise?

Having more field goals made than field goals missed is another obvious criteria to include, what kind of great scorer misses more than he scores?

[LAL1947]

I would start with using less subjective things than MVP voting results.

I've included MVPs as the 4th criteria (with a high number of them needed, 3x, being a highly subjective award with some dubious ones handed out in the past)... to catch any players who fall through the net by not having 30k points, 3x seasons leading the league in assists, or 2x DPOTY awards. The idea there is to include those players who may not have been the best in the league at scoring, play-making or defense but were good enough to earn 3x MVPs.

I would make multiple mvps a prerequisite criteria tho

Anyone who is supposed to be a top 10 player ever should be able to win multiple mvps, how can you be top 10 otherwise?

Well, MVP is the most subjective award IMO, or has been in the past... and as we know, some players have been robbed of MVPs for off-court reasons.

[falcolombardi]

I've included MVPs as the 4th criteria (with a high number of them needed, 3x, being a highly subjective award with some dubious ones handed out in the past)... to catch any players who fall through the net by not having 30k points, 3x seasons leading the league in assists, or 2x DPOTY awards. The idea there is to include those players who may not have been the best in the league at scoring, play-making or defense but were good enough to earn 3x MVPs.

I would make multiple mvps a prerequisite criteria tho

Anyone who is supposed to be a top 10 player ever should be able to win multiple mvps, how can you be top 10 otherwise?

Well, MVP is the most subjective award IMO, or has been in the past... and as we know, some players have been robbed of MVPs for off-court reasons.

Are you saying award voting for stuff like mvps, dpoy, all D selections are not always accurate!

But what does that mean for kobe defensive teams? May they not be all accurate?

[LAL1947]

Anyway! I'm not seeing many Top 10 lists being posted... only rebuttals!

I'm really curious to see what your Top 10 lists look like while applying the criteria in the opening post. This is supposed to be a fun exercise that might make you think about the worth of other players who don't usually appear in our Top 10s. So can we please play along?

Oh, and 70sFan brought up a good point about DPOTY and MVP not existing in some prior years, so feel free to include players from the years when those awards didn't exist but while giving an alternative criteria to include them in those years.

[LAL1947]

Are you saying award voting for stuff like mvps, dpoy, all D selections are not always accurate!

But what does that mean for kobe defensive teams? May they not be all accurate?

I think the most honest answer is that Kobe's 12 All-Defensive selections are as accurate or inaccurate as Tim Duncan's 15 All-Defensive selections. It's funny to me how some people harp on Kobe's while ignoring Duncan's.

[AEnigma]

Oh please elaborate. Exactly who missed out on which MVPs for what “off-court” reasons?

[falcolombardi]

Are you saying award voting for stuff like mvps, dpoy, all D selections are not always accurate!

But what does that mean for kobe defensive teams? May they not be all accurate?

I think the most honest answer is that Kobe's All-Defensive selections are as accurate or inaccurate as Tim Duncan's 15 All-Defensive selections. It's funny to me how some people harp on Kobe's while ignoring Duncan's.

So kobe single mvp is as accurate or innacurate as duncan two mvps then?

[LAL1947]

Are you saying award voting for stuff like mvps, dpoy, all D selections are not always accurate!

But what does that mean for kobe defensive teams? May they not be all accurate?

I think the most honest answer is that Kobe's All-Defensive selections are as accurate or inaccurate as Tim Duncan's 15 All-Defensive selections. It's funny to me how some people harp on Kobe's while ignoring Duncan's.

So kobe single mvp is as accurate or innacurate as duncan two mvps then?

Nopes. Because then you'd be ignoring the context of why Kobe was excluded on purpose in 2005-06 and 2006-07... i.e., the league couldn't have someone associated with sexual assault as the recipient of the MVP title. Are you guys being obtuse on purpose or do you not understand how it would have looked for the league to say this is our Most Valuable Player... and it doesn't matter what he did off-court? The name of this one award alone meant he couldn't be included in the running for it, until public perception of him changed after a great deal of effort from Kobe to correct it.

[AEnigma]

MVPs are unfair, maybe we should use Finals MVPs? You know what, I can add that in to my suggested requirements, at least three Finals MVPs. Kind-of unfair to Russell, but Russell already has two MVPs and two title and 15,000 combined rebounds, so we know he is a balanced player and is safe on the list regardless.