Defensively in their prime: Gary Payton vs Jason Kidd vs Chris Paul

[therealbig3]

I’d argue Jason Kidd as the best, as I think as a team and individual defender, he was honestly brilliant. His reads, his playing of the passing lanes, his defensive rebounding, his hands, his communication, his switch-ability…they were all elite.

Payton has the rep in terms of being The Glove and being a lockdown 1 on 1 defender, but I don’t think he had the overall team defense that Kidd did.

I think CP3 is great, but his size really limits him in this comparison. I see him as a clear 3rd.

[CharityStripe34]

Jason Kidd was really annoying at drawing "charges" at literally the last millisecond and somehow the refs respected it, lol.

[70sFan]

Kidd
Payton
Paul

All of them were great, but this is a clear order to me.

[Jaivl]

Kidd (basically an all-D forward)
(gap)
Payton (higher peak)
Paul (more consistent)

[Texas Chuck]

Kidd is one of the best defensive guards of all-time. Even stacks up well against all the guys with very limited offensive responsibilities.

I'd take Paul over Payton I think. I get he's small, but beyond just the steals he has been a very good defensive player.

[No-more-rings]

Kidd
Payton
Paul

Maybe there's room for debate on Payton vs Paul, but Kidd seems like a clear cut or 2 above.

[capfan33]

Kidd's definitely 1st, I think that Paul has a good argument against Payton kind of surprised how most people think Payton is clearly better.

[Ron Swanson]

I feel Paul is clearly last here. Combination of his lack of size and his on-ball usage compared to the others, even if he was still consistently great. Payton/Kidd is a toss-up for me and kind of depends on what you prefer. Payton was arguably the best PG point of attack defender I've ever seen. When he could devote all his energy to defense, he was just absolutely smothering on the perimeter. While Kidd was the superior team defender and rebounder, while also having the size/strength to guard multiple positions. I'd take Kidd for his consistency in most situations/roster constructs, but if I don't have the benefit of an elite rim-protecting big anchoring the back-line of my defense, I might opt for Payton.

1a. Kidd
1b. Payton

3. Paul

[cupcakesnake]

Here for another vote for Kidd. Just an all-around monster defensive guard who could guard up a few positions, had insanely strong hands, and was a brilliant help defender in all sorts of play-types.

I'm not sure how to value Payton's suffocating point-of-attack defense against Paul's versatility, disruptiveness and clever help capabilities.

[cpower]

Jason Kidd is a beast, CP3 is last

[BenoUdrihFTL]

I think Payton's defense is kinda becoming a little underrated, but's hard to ignore the defensive performance of Kidd's teams wherever he went. Pre-Kidd, during Kidd, post-Kidd, there's a consistent pattern here

Phoenix's rDRTG was in the red for 4x seasons prior to their first full season with Kidd when they made a massive leap from 1.9 and ranked 20th in '97 (when they acquired Kidd midseason, already an improvement from 2.4 and 23rd in '96) to -3.2 and 6th in '98, dipped to 1.1 and 19th in the aberrational '99 lockout season, then an elite -5.1/3rd and -5.0/2nd the final two seasons with Kidd (to give an idea of just how elite those rDRTGs are, the mid-00s Pistons hit that -5.0 threshold only once)

When Kidd exited to New Jersey in '02, Phoenix's defense dropped from 2nd ranked to 12th with their rDRTG declining by a massive 4.5 points. The Nets then procced to make what has to be a historic defensive leap upon Kidd's arrival

New Jersey went from a 2.5 rDRTG and 23rd rank in '01 to -5.0 and 1st in '02. A single-season leap of 7.5 rDRTG points and 22 ranks is just absurd and I'm struggling to find a comparable in NBA history [even the '57 Celtics' improvement with rookie Bill Russell wasn't quite as dramatic (6.3 and 6th of 8 to 1st of 8), and I'm not considering the '98 Spurs who added both David Robinson and Tim Duncan after tanking without either in '97]. His tenure with the Nets from ages 28-34 is when Kidd eventually fell out of his prime, and New Jersey's defense began to fade along with it, but not before a 2 year run as the league's best that propelled them to b2b Finals appearances. ***EDIT: the Lakers jumped from 2.1 and 23rd in '99 to -5.9 and 1st in '00 for a staggering improvement of 8.0 rDRTG points and 22 ranks despite retaining the same core, however they did add Phil Jackson as coach and '99 was the aforementioned wonky lockout season***

Here's a summation of Phoenix and New Jersey's defensive performances pre, during and post Kidd (year/team/rDRTG/rank and Kidd's age):

'96 PHO: 2.4, 23rd (pre-Kidd)
'97 PHO: 1.9, 20th (Kidd acquired midseason)
'98 PHO: -3.2, 6th (24)
'99 PHO: 1.1, 19th (25)
'00 PHO: -5.1, 3rd (26)
'01 PHO: -5.0, 2nd (27)
'02 PHO: -0.5, 12th (post-Kidd)
'01 NJN: 2.5, 23rd (pre-Kidd)
'02 NJN: -5.0, 1st (28)
'03 NJN: -5.5, 1st (29)
'04 NJN: -4.9, 4th (30)
'05 NJN: -3.0, 7th (31)
'06 NJN: -3.8, 4th (32)
'07 NJN: 0.1, 15th (33)
'08 NJN: 1.9, 21st (Kidd traded midseason)
'09 NJN: 2.7, 24th (post-Kidd)

Twice in prime Kidd's career, he joined a team ranked in the 20s defensively and proceeded to accompany their rise to a top 2 defense. In fact for 4x seasons from ages 26 though 29, and for two different teams, both of which were a defensive mess pre-Kidd, he spearheaded 4x rDRTGs of -5.0 or better (likely would've made it a 5th in '04 but Kidd missed 15 games). Again, the vaunted mid-00s Pistons defense (from the same era) hit that -5.0 threshold exactly once