Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 - 2016-17 Kevin Durant

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Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 - 2016-17 Kevin Durant 

Post#1 » by LA Bird » Thu Sep 1, 2022 2:27 pm

RealGM Greatest Peaks List (2022)
1. 1990-91 Michael Jordan
2. 2012-13 LeBron James
3. 1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal
4. 1976-77 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. 1966-67 Wilt Chamberlain
6. 2002-03 Tim Duncan
7. 1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon
8. 1963-64 Bill Russell
9. 1985-86 Larry Bird
10. 1986-87 Magic Johnson
11. 2016-17 Stephen Curry
12. 2003-04 Kevin Garnett
13. 2020-21 Giannis Antetokounmpo
14. 1963-64 Oscar Robertson
15. 1965-66 Jerry West
16. 2021-22 Nikola Jokic
17. 1976-77 Bill Walton
18. 2005-06 Dwyane Wade
19. 2007-08 Kobe Bryant
20. 1993-94 David Robinson
21. 2016-17 Kawhi Leonard
22. 1975-76 Julius Erving
23. 2010-11 Dirk Nowitzki
24. ?

Spoiler:
Please vote for your 3 highest player peaks and at least one line of reasoning for each of them.

Vote example 1
1. 1991 Jordan: Explanation
2. 2013 LeBron: Explanation
3. 2000 Shaq: Explanation

In addition, you can also list other peak season candidates from those three players. This extra step is entirely optional

Vote example 2
1. 1991 Jordan: Explanation
(1990 Jordan)
2. 2013 LeBron: Explanation
(2012 LeBron)
(2009 LeBron)
3. 2000 Shaq: Explanation

You can visit the project thread for further information on why this makes a difference and how the votes will be counted at the end of the round.

Voting for this round will close on Friday September 9, 9am ET.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#2 » by Dutchball97 » Thu Sep 1, 2022 3:00 pm

1. 1983 Moses Malone - Moses wasn't the best defender but in 83 he does look pretty impressive on that end, while his offense has always been strong. He's hurt somewhat by playing on a historically stacked team but it's hard to go against him winning MVP by a landslide and leading the 76ers to a dominant title. I might be somewhat influenced by winning bias here but we have rather incomplete advanced stats for the early 80s so I'd rather not put too much emphasis on Moses not having an overwhelmingly high BPM.

2. 2017 Kevin Durant - I know this board has long championed Curry as the main driving force for the Warriors over Durant in 2017 and I'd agree with that stance but I don't think the difference should be as big as it currently is. In any case KD is one of the best scorers ever in my opinion. He averages 27.2 PPG over his career, which is 4th all-time behind MJ, Wilt and Baylor. Two guys who played in an era with higher pace and the greatest scorer ever. KD also does this on incredibly consistent efficiency. His career splits are 50/38/88% and 61.6 TS%. In 2017 specifically he took less shots because he played with more elite offensive options than before but his efficiency increased to even higher levels. Besides his scoring he's also a capable defender and serviceable playmaker. I also considered 2014 as that was his strongest regular season with a very good play-off run alongside it but the heights KD reached in 2017, especially during the Finals, makes me prefer his 2017 season slightly more than his 2014 outing. I'm not considering 2016 because he had a disappointing post-season.

2b. 2014 Kevin Durant

3. 2008 Chris Paul - Chris Paul played at a MVP level throughout the entire season. Even though he didn't end up winning the award I still believe he probably should've and would at the very least also have been a deserving candidate. While CP3 now has a reputation for coming up short in the play-offs, his 2008 campaign is far from that. It was his first ever post-season and in his first game he had 35/3/10/4/1 on great efficiency, while being a +16 against the Dallas Mavericks with prime Dirk. Even when he had lesser scoring performances you could always count on double digits assists with minimal turnovers and good defense for his size.

3b. 2015 Chris Paul

The next names on my radar are in chronological order; Pettit, Baylor, Barry, Barkley, Nash and Harden.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#3 » by DraymondGold » Thu Sep 1, 2022 3:42 pm

DraymondGold wrote:Expanding my ballot a bit, since there's more uncertainty the closer the peaks get together:

1. 17 Durant (16, 14)
[old vote for Dirk and Kawhi were here]
2. 1949 Mikan (1950/1951)
[Old vote for 1976 Ewing was here]
3. 2014 Chris Paul (2015, 2009)
4. 2020 Anthony Davis
5. 2007 Steve Nash (2006, 2005)


Previous vote reasoning: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=100961668#p100961668
Stat Box: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=100988617#p100988617
Spoiler:
DraymondGold wrote:I didn't get the chance to post this before Robinson got voted in, so I'll include him here for reference.

Stat Box for this tier of Peaks: Robinson, KD, Kawhi, Dirk, CP3, AD, Nash, Erving, Moses [to add later: McGrady, Karl Malone, Barkley, Mikan]

Plus minus data
Ai. AuPM: 94/95/96 Robinson > 14/15 Paul > 14/16/17 KD > Dirk > Nash > 17/19/21 Kawhi ~ Moses (better in single year peak, worse multi-year) > AD > Erving (no 76 Erving)
Aii. Postseason AuPM: old Robinson > Paul > Dirk (better 1 year, worse 2) >~ Kawhi (higher 1 year than KD) >~ Nash >~ KD (better 2 year) > AD
Bi. Goldstein RAPM: Nash >~ old Robinson ~ Dirk > Paul > Moses (very small historical sample) > Kawhi > KD > AD
Bii. Goldstein RS/Playoff PIPM: Robinson > Paul > Kawhi > KD (21 higher than Kobe) > Dirk > AD > Erving (no 76) > Moses (better 1 year, worse multi-year) ~ Nash (better closer to peak, worse than 80s Erving)
Ci. Additional plus minus stats: Fivethirtyeight’s Overall RAPTOR +/- (per 75): Paul > Kawhi > AD > KD
Cii. Additional plus minus stats: Bball-Index’s LEBRON: Paul (best multi-year) ~ KD (14’s the best peak 1 year, worse multi-year) ~ Kawhi (middle) > AD > Dirk
D. Additional plus minus stats: DARKO: Paul > Kawhi > KD > AD
E. Additional plus minus stats: ESPN’s RPM: Paul > KD > Dirk ~ Kawhi > AD (worse peak year than Nash, better multi-year) > Nash
Fi Additional Plus Minus stats: WOWY: Robinson > Nash [> Kawhi in smaller samples] >> Dirk > Erving > Paul > KD [> AD in smaller samples] >> Moses
Fii. Additional plus minus stats: Backpicks’ CORP evaluation: KD >~ Robinson > Dirk > Erving > AD ~ Paul > Nash > Kawhi > Moses


Box score-based data
Gi. Backpicks BPM: Robinson >~ KD > Paul > Kawhi ~ AD > Dirk ~ Nash (better than 11 Dirk, worse than younger) > Moses > Erving (no 76 Erving)
Gii. Postseason Backpicks BPM: 17 KD (14 is bottom) > Paul ~ Kawhi (21 above KD, 17/19 below Paul) > Nash ~ AD ~ Dirk >~ Robinson (worse younger, better older) > Moses (better 1 year, worse multi-year) ~ Erving (no 76 Erving)
Hi. BR’s BPM: Robinson > 76 Erving (better 1 year than KD) >~ KD > Paul > Kawhi > AD > Dirk (worse 10/11, better younger) >~ Nash > Moses
Hii. BR’s Postseason BPM: Kawhi > 76 Erving > KD > Paul > Dirk (worse in 11, better 10/younger) ~ AD (better in 20, worse other years) >~ Robinson (worse younger, better older) > Moses > Nash


Tier 0 (best in everything): Robinson.
-Robinson: Glad he got voted in. He's worse in post-season BPM, but otherwise he's top 2 in basically every stat including other postseason stats.

Tier 1 (better in most, with some flaws): Paul >~ KD >~ Kawhi >~ Dirk
-Paul is ahead of this group in plus minus metrics (especially in AuPM, Raptor, LeBron, Darko, RPM). He's ahead of Dirk in Box metrics but behind KD in box metrics. The concern for Paul is health, resilience, and scalability, which the stats might miss. Year: I'm taking 14/15 Paul as my peak, though some will argue for 08/09 based more on the box score than impact metrics.
-KD's ahead in all 4 box metrics, tied with Dirk in impact metrics, but below Paul in most impact metrics. He does well in both resilience and scalability. Year: I'd see arguments for 14, 16, and 17.
-Kawhi’s clearly worse in the regular season (e.g. in AuPM and RAPM), but better in the postseason (e.g. in PIPM and BPM).
-Dirk's worst in BPM, but he makes some ground in WOWY and RAPM. Year: he’s better in some stats when he was younger ~06/07, but had some of his best playoffs and scoring ~10/11.
[-Kobe’s below KD in BPM and just above in impact metrics, for those curious]

Tier 2 (still great, but larger flaws): Nash, Erving, AD
-Nash has the clear advantage against these 3 in regular impact metrics (e.g. AuPM, WOWY, and RAPM especially where he's first), but he has some of the worst box metrics of anyone here.
-Erving’s missing stats in 76 pulls him down. His non-76 years are last in AuPM and Backpicks’ BPM, but he has mid-pack WOWY regardless and his 76 Basketball Reference BPM just beats KD. If we check WS/48, he’s just below Kawhi/KD in the regular season and above KD near Kawhi in the postseason Year: Interestingly, almost every stat (AuPM, BPM, RS/PS PIPM, etc.) are better in 80/81/82 than 77/78/79. Is this a sign of worse “goodness” in the 70s or worse fit when joining the NBA?
-AD bottom 2 in almost every impact metric (e.g. AuPM, RAPM, WOWY), but his Playoff PIPM from 2020 puts him mid-pack as does BPM.

Tier 3 (clearly below the rest): Moses
-Moses’ best two stats are regular season AuPM (where he sneaks past AD/Erving) and RAPM (where he has a 10 game sample). But he’s bottom 2 in this tier in literally every stat we have here. He’s particularly putrid in WOWY, and he only loses ground if we take multi-year samples.
Reasoning for KD/Dirk: I see both at quite a close level. Durant's impact metrics, scalability, and resilience (alongside another offensive engine) are all great. A similar thing can be said for Dirk. Both are great scorers, likely a hair above Kawhi. Both are clearly the better creators and fit better within an offensive scheme, though passing is neither of their strong suits. Defensively, I'm most concerned with Dirk, particularly as a big man. It's a bit like Jokic, where it becomes a bit of a team making challenge to get the most out of their offense without sacrificing defense. While KD's defense and rebounding is generally overrated due to his athleticism, 17 was finally the year he put it together. Yes, a lot of that was context -- but he also showed a decline in those areas the next year in 18, when he had quite a similar context, so I do think 17 represents KD's peak from a "defensive / team-first mentality" standpoint.

Mikan: He's clearly the most dominant of anyone here by any (few) stats we have, and by any (limited) film we have [see my previous conversation on the topic]. The big question is how much to discount him for his competition or from a "goodness" perspective. I'm honestly not sure what the answer is. I put him here, approximately around the boundary between two Tiers of peaks. I think there'll definitely be some arbitrariness in when he gets voted in though. I just wish we had more info on him!

Paul: I suspect he'll be given the Robinson treatment. His regular season impact is clearly just as good as anyone here. The concern for him is playoffs. And while I think the constant harping about him as a "choker" is overrated (and often health related), he does show a decline in the film and in the stats (BPM/PIPM/AuPM) even in the playoffs where he's relatively healthy. Add some scalability concerns, and he gets discounted a bit, but stays above those who seem to be a small tier below him.

Edit for Paul: in a parallel thread, people are looking at relative Offensive Rating when a player's on the court since 1997/2001ish. 2015 Paul's on-court rORTG peak is the 3rd best peak, in the same tier as 2016/2017 Curry or 2005/2007 Nash. That's crazy good offense! His 2018 rating is also top 10, and his 2008, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2016 ratings are all also in the upper echelon.

In this metric (which is just one metric that could benefit from more context, but still), Paul seems to come out ahead offensively over Harden and even Dirk, Shaq, and LeBron (in the same tier as Durant, below Nash/Curry). It's regular season-only, so this might not assuage the postseason concerns, but it reinforces just how good Paul is in the regular season. Give Paul clearly better defense over Harden (who also isn't the better postseason performer, health aside) or Nash (who's a larger negative on defense), and Paul's case over the other guards starts to build.
Source: Sprees Opening post and my post (#19) in the on-court rORTG thread (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2222668).
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#4 » by AEnigma » Thu Sep 1, 2022 4:09 pm

1. Anthony Davis (2020)
With Dirk off the board I hope people give Davis another look, because at this point really no one has a better postseason aptitude to their name. Imagine 2020, or even 2018, Davis on a slightly adjusted (to make up for the spacing decline going from Dirk to Davis) version of that 2011 Mavericks team. As a playoff scorer, prime Davis (in a limited sample) has proved his acumen, and we also know he can be the world’s best defender. Two-way impact like that reliably translates across many different teams and eras, and I would comfortably prefer to build a title team around his peak than around anyone else’s. Biggest issue is of course the regular season, but 2018-20 Davis is a pretty strong baseline regardless: he still averaged 27 points per 75 on +4.5 efficiency, good passing for a big, and near DPoY-level defence, with a third place MVP finish.

Here Unibro’s take is close to definitive and thoroughly discredits assumptions about Davis’s “reliance” on Lebron:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2215651#p100682968

2. Steve Nash a.) 2007 b.) 2006 c.) 2005
Along with Russell and Walton, Nash is one of three all-time peaks players who to some extent defy box score impact. People more readily recognise that box scores can fail elite defenders, and in Russell’s case especially without available steals or blocks, but with Nash it is apparently much more confusing how a player could showcase all-time WOWY(R) and top of the line RAPM almost entirely off his offence without that jumping out at you on a stat-sheet. The other difference of course is that Russell and Walton both lead their teams to a title, and Nash sadly did not — although I believe he could have with some better luck in 2006 or 2007, or with some better front office decisions throughout his prime.

What Nash did do was consistently spearhead contending teams in a manner that I feel would translate well across eras. Nash’s passing, much like Magic’s, is a brilliant magnifier and maximiser of existing talent — but that is not something that you find in the boxscore, or at least not until BBR buys access to Elgee’s passer model. :oops: I also think Nash is an easy top eight shooter in the history of the sport, with a decent claim to second. His shot and shot percentages are every bit as good as anyone’s, they maintain into the postseason, and he created those shots for himself far more than any other top shooter did. This was a massive advantage in his time, but with the spacing revolution I think his gravity would take another leap. (Note: I am not suggesting he would be a regular high volume scorer in the modern league, which is a claim I think grossly misinterprets the value and intent of his playstyle; simply going more to his playoff volume and increasing the proportion of threes taken would already represent a notable jump and would even further strain defences that have become hyper-aware of the effects of that type of spacing.)

I came across plenty of good commentary reading through past projects and RealGM threads — I may re-post some later to drive conversation — but I am not sure Nash’s peak case is all that mysterious anymore. That Backpicks profile was what, five years ago now? Everyone should have seen those arguments and statistics, even if not everyone is inclined to accept them. His downside is that he is a small guard with at best uninspiring defence, and although that was hardly disastrous in his time, he would certainly be picked on more today (that said, his play awareness should keep him well above the Trae/Isaiah/Lillard tier of abject liability). Like I said when we were comparing him with Jokic, it seems intuitively easier to build a defence with a weak guard than it is to build a defence with a weak big, even if that big provides a higher baseline defensive value than the guard (sadly, running a team of slower-footed giants does not seem to stack as well as you may hope, and teams have yet to develop the approach of abandoning small guards entirely). I think the 2006 Suns have a strong shot at making it past the Mavericks (at which point they would be up against notorious pnr defender Shaq) if they simply had a healthy Kurt Thomas (I encourage people to check Phoenix’s net ratings with Nash on-court and Amar’e off-court; not exactly struggling, are they?). Nash does not need stars or hot shooting or favourable matchups to do well in the postseason; at his peak, all he really needed was some healthy support.

3. Kevin Durant (2017)
:giveup:
Best wing remaining on the board. In contention for best regular season scorer ever, or at least top three. I honestly hate this vote but no one else exactly has a winning argument either. Ewing comes closest but there are enough questions around him that I guess I still should give the advantage to Durant. I appreciate the case for Harden in a vacuum, but with Nash on the board still I am not looking at other guards. On that note, the extent to which Durant scales well next to ball dominant players is relatively overrated — too in love with isolation plays and his own limited ballhandling — but he did at least try to mesh well in 2017, and those flaws in his scaling at least somewhat counter the idea of him needing a regular season boost from all-time point guards. What he does need is constant coddling. :sour: Something seems to have improved in his scoring resilience since joining Golden State, even when Steph was off-court, so I will give him that. Fingers crossed that Davis and Nash get their due attention next.

Comments on 1990 Ewing (my next vote):
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2221972&p=101037106#p101034004

Critical comments on Moses:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2221330&start=40#p100995820
In my eyes, several all-time centre peaks could have won a dominant title with the 1983 76ers, and I have yet to see a real case for what makes him qualifiedly better than other centres on the board outside of the fact that he was the one present to do it.

Critical comments on Paul:
Regarding Paul, I think his regular season “impact” is moderately overstated (not that anyone already voting for him or intending to vote for him in the next couple of ballots is likely to agree), and I see him as an even more extreme Embiid case in the postseason (again, not that his current voting bloc seems likely to care much). I am not saying he is an outright “choker” in the postseason when healthy (which itself is hardly a given), and there is excusable context behind most and arguably all of those losses, but if he receives all this credit for how good he can look in the regular season, then either we need to think about whether that quality is exaggerated, or we need to consider why that is not carrying over to the postseason and why teams are routinely winning four straight or four of five against him. If it is a flaw in his leadership or his approach or his adaptability, then maybe there is at least some element of truth to those pundits who scoff at the idea he could ever be trusted to captain a team to a championship.
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2222404#p101041759

If I were to vote for Paul — guessing he is admitted before that happens, but if Nash and Davis receive a quick groundswell of support, who knows — I would back 2008/09. Yes, he improved as a defender on the Clippers, or at least in his ability to captain a defence. I do not value his postseason defence too highly anyway, and I would still prefer the period where he was at his physical peak and by reputation the best point guard in the league, rather than one where he was being outperformed in the postseason by a player I have even less intent to support (and it was not just 2014, because Westbrook has plenty of nice “impact” in 2016 and 2017 too over a larger sample than Paul).
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#5 » by No-more-rings » Thu Sep 1, 2022 4:54 pm

Here's the top 23 so far compared to last time as far as net changes.

1. 1990-91 Michael Jordan(-)
2. 2012-13 LeBron James(-)
3. 1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal(+1)
4. 1976-77 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar(+1)
5. 1966-67 Wilt Chamberlain(-2)
6. 2002-03 Tim Duncan(-)
7. 1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon(+2)
8. 1963-64 Bill Russell(-)
9. 1985-86 Larry Bird(-2)
10. 1986-87 Magic Johnson(-)
11. 2016-17 Stephen Curry(+4)
12. 2003-04 Kevin Garnett(-)
13. 2020-21 Giannis Antetokounmpo(+18)
14. 1963-64 Oscar Robertson(-)
15. 1965-66 Jerry West(+2)
16. 2021-22 Nikola Jokic(not on prior top 40, +25??)
17. 1976-77 Bill Walton(-4)
18. 2005-06 Dwyane Wade(-2)
19. 2007-08 Kobe Bryant(+1)
20. 1993-94 David Robinson(-2)
21. 2016-17 Kawhi Leonard(+6)
22. 1975-76 Julius Erving(-10!!!)
23. 2010-11 Dirk Nowitzki(-4)

The top 10 is mostly unchanged aside from a few minor up or downs. Curry somehow jumped 4 places, even fending off the rise of Jokic and Giannis. Giannis jumped 18 places, his 21' and 22' seasons are a good bit better than his 2019, but 18 places better? I'm doubtful but that's what happened. Jokic went from not being in to 16th, coming in I thought figured he was basically a top 15 lock maybe even get as high as 11 or 12 but there was more concern about his defense than I expected, so he fell. Kobe continues to get better over the past few projects, going up one spot despite Jokic and Giannis' additions.

Kawhi moved up a lot, as expected, he got unfairly penalized in the last project for resting in the regular season or some crap. Dr J really got his teeth kicked in in this project, but I think that's more just due to the randomness of who's voting rather than some major shift against him. KD will probably end the same at 24, and Cp3 likely goes up a few. AD will likely make the 30. I think Harden being ranked 35th was pretty ridiculous last time, like somehow Dwight and Artis Gilmore got ahead. Strangely, I don't think he moves up more than 2-3 spots this time. Tmac hasn't received a single vote yet, I wouldn't be surprised to see him drop well over 10 spots.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#6 » by capfan33 » Thu Sep 1, 2022 5:03 pm

[Kind of a crapshoot for me at this point lol so interested to see what happens.

1. Anthony Davis 2020
I had no intention of voting for Davis at 1st largely because I don't buy his 2020 performance as at all being reflective of his actual level as a player. But thinking about it more even previous versions of Davis, if you buy his playoff performance level in a limited sample, would still probably be 1st for me. Simply put, no one left has the level of 2-way versatility that Davis has. I seriously considered Ewing but ultimately feel a bit more comfortable with Davis' versatility over Ewings incredible rim protection.

2. Patrick Ewing 1990
I'm not very familiar with Ewing overall, but I do know he was a historically great defensive anchor who anchored some of the greatest defenses ever. AEngima's posts in the previous thread are largely the reason for this vote, as he showed how 1990 for Ewing was actually a legitimate outlier for him due to an improved offensive skillset while still maintaining his athleticism, and I suspect that the better defensive results in 93 and 94 are more due to roster construction and coaching than Ewing himself. In a general sense, I like his skillset quite a bit, a legitimate top-10 defensive anchor ever who also had outside shooting touch and athleticism to play in the pick and roll. It plays well in many teams in any era, and as such I'm unexpectedly voting for Ewing here.

3. Steve Nash 2007
This is between Nash and KD and while KD is the safer choice, I'm going with Nash. The reason for this is largely because if you break it down, Nash and KD both excel on offense, that's what were evaluating here. KD's defense doesn't really move the needle enough for me in a discussion like this to matter that much to me, even compared to Nash. Yes, Nash was a defensive liability but the Suns also didn't have the greatest defenders around him and I think on a better defensive team Nash is intelligent enough that you could cover for him somewhat. 2nd, I would rather a perimeter player be a defensive liability than a big which helps Nash a bit.

Back to offense, Nash is probably a top-5ish offensive player ever with outlier impact numbers and team results. He was an incredible passer and shooter, top 10 all time in both (at worst). His results seem relatively resilient in the postseason and he did so on 2 pretty different teams. Durant only does one thing at a truly great level, which is score, and even that was very inconsistent for most of his postseason career. I don't necessarily have an issue with players that have just 1 elite skill, but it better translate pretty well in the playoffs, and in Durant's case it didn't. His scalability is nice, but I don't think it moves the needle enough in this comparison, especially when Nash's offensives had such great heights. As such, KD will be my next pick.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#7 » by falcolombardi » Thu Sep 1, 2022 5:15 pm

capfan33 wrote:[Kind of a crapshoot for me at this point lol so interested to see what happens.

1. Anthony Davis 2020
I had no intention of voting for Davis at 1st largely because I don't buy his 2020 performance as at all being reflective of his actual level as a player. But thinking about it more even previous versions of Davis, if you buy his playoff performance level in a limited sample, would still probably be 1st for me. Simply put, no one left has the level of 2-way versatility that Davis has. I seriously considered Ewing but ultimately feel a bit more comfortable with Davis' versatility over Ewings incredible rim protection.

2. Patrick Ewing 1990
I'm not very familiar with Ewing overall, but I do know he was a historically great defensive anchor who anchored some of the greatest defenses ever. AEngima's posts in the previous thread are largely the reason for this vote, as he showed how 1990 for Ewing was actually a legitimate outlier for him due to an improved offensive skillset while still maintaining his athleticism, and I suspect that the better defensive results in 93 and 94 are more due to roster construction and coaching than Ewing himself. In a general sense, I like his skillset quite a bit, a legitimate top-10 defensive anchor ever who also had outside shooting touch and athleticism to play in the pick and roll. It plays well in many teams in any era, and as such I'm unexpectedly voting for Ewing here.

3. Steve Nash 2007
This is between Nash and KD and while KD is the safer choice, I'm going with Nash. The reason for this is largely because if you break it down, Nash and KD both excel on offense, that's what were evaluating here. KD's defense doesn't really move the needle enough for me in a discussion like this to matter that much to me, even compared to Nash. Yes, Nash was a defensive liability but the Suns also didn't have the greatest defenders around him and I think on a better defensive team Nash is intelligent enough that you could cover for him somewhat. 2nd, I would rather a perimeter player be a defensive liability than a big which helps Nash a bit.

Back to offense, Nash is probably a top-5ish offensive player ever with outlier impact numbers and team results. He was an incredible passer and shooter, top 10 all time in both (at worst). His results seem relatively resilient in the postseason and he did so on 2 pretty different teams. Durant only does one thing at a truly great level, which is score, and even that was very inconsistent for most of his postseason career. I don't necessarily have an issue with players that have just 1 elite skill, but it better translate pretty well in the playoffs, and in Durant's case it didn't. His scalability is nice, but I don't think it moves the needle enough in this comparison, especially when Nash's offensives had such great heights. As such, KD will be my next pick.



Based in your reasoning for durant. Wouldnt it also make sense to consider harden/paul over him too?
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#8 » by DraymondGold » Thu Sep 1, 2022 5:26 pm

No-more-rings wrote:Here's the top 23 so far compared to last time as far as net changes.

1. 1990-91 Michael Jordan(-)
2. 2012-13 LeBron James(-)
3. 1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal(+1)
4. 1976-77 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar(+1)
5. 1966-67 Wilt Chamberlain(-2)
6. 2002-03 Tim Duncan(-)
7. 1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon(+2)
8. 1963-64 Bill Russell(-)
9. 1985-86 Larry Bird(-2)
10. 1986-87 Magic Johnson(-)
11. 2016-17 Stephen Curry(+4)
12. 2003-04 Kevin Garnett(-)
13. 2020-21 Giannis Antetokounmpo(+18)
14. 1963-64 Oscar Robertson(-)
15. 1965-66 Jerry West(+2)
16. 2021-22 Nikola Jokic(not on prior top 40, +25??)
17. 1976-77 Bill Walton(-4)
18. 2005-06 Dwyane Wade(-2)
19. 2007-08 Kobe Bryant(+1)
20. 1993-94 David Robinson(-2)
21. 2016-17 Kawhi Leonard(+6)
22. 1975-76 Julius Erving(-10!!!)
23. 2010-11 Dirk Nowitzki(-4)

The top 10 is mostly unchanged aside from a few minor up or downs. Curry somehow jumped 4 places, even fending off the rise of Jokic and Giannis. Giannis jumped 18 places, his 21' and 22' seasons are a good bit better than his 2019, but 18 places better? I'm doubtful but that's what happened. Jokic went from not being in to 16th, coming in I thought figured he was basically a top 15 lock maybe even get as high as 11 or 12 but there was more concern about his defense than I expected, so he fell. Kobe continues to get better over the past few projects, going up one spot despite Jokic and Giannis' additions.

Kawhi moved up a lot, as expected, he got unfairly penalized in the last project for resting in the regular season or some crap. Dr J really got his teeth kicked in in this project, but I think that's more just due to the randomness of who's voting rather than some major shift against him. KD will probably end the same at 24, and Cp3 likely goes up a few. AD will likely make the 30. I think Harden being ranked 35th was pretty ridiculous last time, like somehow Dwight and Artis Gilmore got ahead. Strangely, I don't think he moves up more than 2-3 spots this time. Tmac hasn't received a single vote yet, I wouldn't be surprised to see him drop well over 10 spots.
Nice post! It's always fun to have check-ins to see how things have changed :D

There's lots of different lenses we might look at this later on in the post-project review thread (e.g. valuing defense vs offense, scalability/ceiling raising vs floor raising, championship bias, etc.), but to me one of the themes that jumped out is valuing the recent set of peaks higher.

Curry, Giannis, Jokic, Kawhi are the top 4 risers and they're all the most recent peaks ~since 2015.. As you mention, Davis is certainly likely to rise as is Harden. Durant is likely to stay the same. The only recent peak likely to fall is Westbrook.

The only other risers so far are Kobe (fairly recent), Hakeem who switched with Bird, and Shaq/Kareem who switched with Wilt. That means peaks from the past ~10 years make up ~60% of the relative improvements in the list.

I wonder how much of this is:
A) More recency bias relative to the last project (which would suggest this project is less accurate)
B) Better hindsight and sample size allowing us to more accurately rate the modern players (which would suggest this project is more accurate)
C) Better peaks occurring since our last project, like 2022 Jokic (which we obviously can't fault the last project for, since those peaks hadn't happened yet).
[disclaimer: since the classic response to these Project-comparison posts are that the change is primarily from having different personnel, we can still compare how much factors A, B, and C are different in this voting pool vs the last voting pool]

You suggest 21 Giannis is a bit of C (new peak since the last project) and a bit of A (recency bias), which I tend to agree on. Jokic is likely more a case of C, since 22 Jokic >> 18/19 Jokic. I tend to think Curry's more a case of B, though I'm sure people would disagree and think it's A.
I'm not sold on Kawhi being better than Durant/Dirk, but like you say this likely suggests a change in what our voters value compared to the last project (e.g. being more accepting of regular season coasting, less concerned about injury risks, etc.)
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#9 » by falcolombardi » Thu Sep 1, 2022 5:46 pm

DraymondGold wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:Here's the top 23 so far compared to last time as far as net changes.

1. 1990-91 Michael Jordan(-)
2. 2012-13 LeBron James(-)
3. 1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal(+1)
4. 1976-77 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar(+1)
5. 1966-67 Wilt Chamberlain(-2)
6. 2002-03 Tim Duncan(-)
7. 1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon(+2)
8. 1963-64 Bill Russell(-)
9. 1985-86 Larry Bird(-2)
10. 1986-87 Magic Johnson(-)
11. 2016-17 Stephen Curry(+4)
12. 2003-04 Kevin Garnett(-)
13. 2020-21 Giannis Antetokounmpo(+18)
14. 1963-64 Oscar Robertson(-)
15. 1965-66 Jerry West(+2)
16. 2021-22 Nikola Jokic(not on prior top 40, +25??)
17. 1976-77 Bill Walton(-4)
18. 2005-06 Dwyane Wade(-2)
19. 2007-08 Kobe Bryant(+1)
20. 1993-94 David Robinson(-2)
21. 2016-17 Kawhi Leonard(+6)
22. 1975-76 Julius Erving(-10!!!)
23. 2010-11 Dirk Nowitzki(-4)

The top 10 is mostly unchanged aside from a few minor up or downs. Curry somehow jumped 4 places, even fending off the rise of Jokic and Giannis. Giannis jumped 18 places, his 21' and 22' seasons are a good bit better than his 2019, but 18 places better? I'm doubtful but that's what happened. Jokic went from not being in to 16th, coming in I thought figured he was basically a top 15 lock maybe even get as high as 11 or 12 but there was more concern about his defense than I expected, so he fell. Kobe continues to get better over the past few projects, going up one spot despite Jokic and Giannis' additions.

Kawhi moved up a lot, as expected, he got unfairly penalized in the last project for resting in the regular season or some crap. Dr J really got his teeth kicked in in this project, but I think that's more just due to the randomness of who's voting rather than some major shift against him. KD will probably end the same at 24, and Cp3 likely goes up a few. AD will likely make the 30. I think Harden being ranked 35th was pretty ridiculous last time, like somehow Dwight and Artis Gilmore got ahead. Strangely, I don't think he moves up more than 2-3 spots this time. Tmac hasn't received a single vote yet, I wouldn't be surprised to see him drop well over 10 spots.
Nice post! It's always fun to have check-ins to see how things have changed :D

There's lots of different lenses we might look at this later on in the post-project review thread (e.g. valuing defense vs offense, scalability/ceiling raising vs floor raising, championship bias, etc.), but to me one of the themes that jumped out is valuing the recent set of peaks higher.

Curry, Giannis, Jokic, Kawhi are the top 4 risers and they're all the most recent peaks ~since 2015.. As you mention, Davis is certainly likely to rise as is Harden. Durant is likely to stay the same. The only recent peak likely to fall is Westbrook.

The only other risers so far are Kobe (fairly recent), Hakeem who switched with Bird, and Shaq/Kareem who switched with Wilt. That means peaks from the past ~10 years make up ~60% of the relative improvements in the list.

I wonder how much of this is:
A) More recency bias relative to the last project (which would suggest this project is less accurate)
B) Better hindsight and sample size allowing us to more accurately rate the modern players (which would suggest this project is more accurate)
C) Better peaks occurring since our last project, like 2022 Jokic (which we obviously can't fault the last project for, since those peaks hadn't happened yet).
[disclaimer: since the classic response to these Project-comparison posts are that the change is primarily from having different personnel, we can still compare how much factors A, B, and C are different in this voting pool vs the last voting pool]

You suggest 21 Giannis is a bit of C (new peak since the last project) and a bit of A (recency bias), which I tend to agree on. Jokic is likely more a case of C, since 22 Jokic >> 18/19 Jokic. I tend to think Curry's more a case of B, though I'm sure people would disagree and think it's A.
I'm not sold on Kawhi being better than Durant/Dirk, but like you say this likely suggests a change in what our voters value compared to the last project (e.g. being more accepting of regular season coasting, less concerned about injury risks, etc.)



Julius could be explained by greater debate on his up and down impact metrics making people more wary of him

Jokic is just a guy who reached a level of play we never saw coming

Giannis helped solve many of the doubts on him last 2 post seasons + less pushback against the new guy ( i am a firm believer that at least in this board we trend to be low on current peaks as we try to avoid recency bias and wait for a bigger sample to look at)

Curry i would argue is a player who helped solve a lot of doubts on his playoffs play this season, even though the vote was not on 2022 season, his success this postseason made people more confident he could have tvrived without durant in 2017

Kawhi....i am honestly not sure?

Durant fall ...also not sure. He is probably gonna be more where i would rank him this time (outside the top 20 imo) but i am unsure what changed in people perceptions of him vs previous projects
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#10 » by AEnigma » Thu Sep 1, 2022 6:11 pm

capfan33 wrote:[Kind of a crapshoot for me at this point lol so interested to see what happens.

1. Anthony Davis 2020
I had no intention of voting for Davis at 1st largely because I don't buy his 2020 performance as at all being reflective of his actual level as a player. But thinking about it more even previous versions of Davis, if you buy his playoff performance level in a limited sample, would still probably be 1st for me. Simply put, no one left has the level of 2-way versatility that Davis has. I seriously considered Ewing but ultimately feel a bit more comfortable with Davis' versatility over Ewings incredible rim protection.

2. Patrick Ewing 1990
I'm not very familiar with Ewing overall, but I do know he was a historically great defensive anchor who anchored some of the greatest defenses ever. AEngima's posts in the previous thread are largely the reason for this vote, as he showed how 1990 for Ewing was actually a legitimate outlier for him due to an improved offensive skillset while still maintaining his athleticism, and I suspect that the better defensive results in 93 and 94 are more due to roster construction and coaching than Ewing himself. In a general sense, I like his skillset quite a bit, a legitimate top-10 defensive anchor ever who also had outside shooting touch and athleticism to play in the pick and roll. It plays well in many teams in any era, and as such I'm unexpectedly voting for Ewing here.

3. Steve Nash 2007
This is between Nash and KD and while KD is the safer choice, I'm going with Nash. The reason for this is largely because if you break it down, Nash and KD both excel on offense, that's what were evaluating here. KD's defense doesn't really move the needle enough for me in a discussion like this to matter that much to me, even compared to Nash. Yes, Nash was a defensive liability but the Suns also didn't have the greatest defenders around him and I think on a better defensive team Nash is intelligent enough that you could cover for him somewhat. 2nd, I would rather a perimeter player be a defensive liability than a big which helps Nash a bit.

Back to offense, Nash is probably a top-5ish offensive player ever with outlier impact numbers and team results. He was an incredible passer and shooter, top 10 all time in both (at worst). His results seem relatively resilient in the postseason and he did so on 2 pretty different teams. Durant only does one thing at a truly great level, which is score, and even that was very inconsistent for most of his postseason career. I don't necessarily have an issue with players that have just 1 elite skill, but it better translate pretty well in the playoffs, and in Durant's case it didn't. His scalability is nice, but I don't think it moves the needle enough in this comparison, especially when Nash's offensives had such great heights. As such, KD will be my next pick.

You dropped this :king: Major props for being braver than me and putting Ewing above Durant.

falcolombardi wrote:Based in your reasoning for durant. Wouldnt it also make sense to consider harden/paul over him too?

If the Durant votes take it, as they seem likely to, he may never need to consider that. ;-)

I mean I struggle with that too. None of those three are Nash tier at generating offence. Paul has easily the worst postseason durability, so that is a simple enough out. Harden versus Durant is tougher, but team-building around Durant offers more flexibility than team-building around Harden, even for as much as that can be oversold for Durant. Said it before, but maybe Harden and Embiid will tear it up this year (and in the future) and make this project’s stance on both look a bit dumb to the next project. Until then, I think it is a valid enough question to use to separate. I like Harden a lot more with a squad of role-players, because Durant cannot ever hope to generate team offence like Harden can, but being able to more comfortably fit Durant with other stars is a notable edge. Both probably play at around a +5-7 regular season level on their “own”, but obviously that becomes more difficult in the postseason (contrast with Kawhi, who might be limited in helping you arrive there but maintains once he does). In that capacity I probably like Harden more, and I struggle less to envision him winning a title in those circumstances, but the problem is neither player seems especially close to winning a title like that, so then it feels like it should matter that Durant is the simpler addition to more rosters.

And to bring it back to LukaFan’s commentary on Garnett, there you can see someone who maybe does lose offensive value in the postseason but still gives enough of a defensive floor that with simply better offensive support than old Latrell Sprewell and injured Sam Cassell he could push for a title anyway.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#11 » by Samurai » Thu Sep 1, 2022 6:33 pm

1. George Mikan 1950. (alternate 1951) I said that he would be my next selection so here he is. Most dominant 2-way player relative to his peers of anyone left. Led the league in scoring, Win Shares and Defensive WS. Likely would have led the league in rebounds and blocks if those stats were recorded then and would have been the clear favorite for Defensive Player of the Year is such an award existed. There is no question whatsoever that he was the best of his era, more so than anyone left. In terms of in-era dominance, he has a very good case for being the GOAT. As is, he may well be the most impactful player ever, given that the 24-second rule was established largely due to Mikan's dominance and the widening of the key was dubbed "the Mikan rule". A good argument can be made that the introduction of the shot clock is the single biggest and most influential rule change since the NBA started. The question is how much do we penalize him for playing in a weaker era. This is where I would draw the line at continuing to penalize him.

2. Bob Pettit 1959.
(alternate 58, 62)I have Pettit as very close to Mikan so I suppose it makes sense for me to list him just after Mikan. In terms of how he did against his peers, I think a good argument could be made that 59 Pettit could have been a top ten season. Obviously we also have to look at the context of his season and the quality of his competition and figure out how much to penalize him for the era he played in. He was MVP in a league that had Bill Russell averaging 23 boards/game, a rookie Elgin Baylor averaging 25 pts and 15 rebounds/game, and Hall of Famers like Schayes, Arizin, Hagan, Cousy and Twyman in their primes. Pettit led the league with 29.4 pts/game, a 28.2 PER and 14.8 WS while finishing second in rebounds with 16.4/game.

3. Moses Malone 1983. Led the league in PER, OReb%, TRB%, Reb/game, WS and WS/48. RS MVP as well as Finals MVP. Dominant RS and an even better playoff run to lead one of the best team playoff performances of all time. And while he is best known for his scoring and GOAT-level rebounding, he also finished second in Defensive Win Shares and tenth in blocks that season. He wasn't a perfect player, but he did so incredibly well at his strengths that I can overlook the assist and turnover numbers.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#12 » by capfan33 » Thu Sep 1, 2022 6:35 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
capfan33 wrote:[Kind of a crapshoot for me at this point lol so interested to see what happens.

1. Anthony Davis 2020
I had no intention of voting for Davis at 1st largely because I don't buy his 2020 performance as at all being reflective of his actual level as a player. But thinking about it more even previous versions of Davis, if you buy his playoff performance level in a limited sample, would still probably be 1st for me. Simply put, no one left has the level of 2-way versatility that Davis has. I seriously considered Ewing but ultimately feel a bit more comfortable with Davis' versatility over Ewings incredible rim protection.

2. Patrick Ewing 1990
I'm not very familiar with Ewing overall, but I do know he was a historically great defensive anchor who anchored some of the greatest defenses ever. AEngima's posts in the previous thread are largely the reason for this vote, as he showed how 1990 for Ewing was actually a legitimate outlier for him due to an improved offensive skillset while still maintaining his athleticism, and I suspect that the better defensive results in 93 and 94 are more due to roster construction and coaching than Ewing himself. In a general sense, I like his skillset quite a bit, a legitimate top-10 defensive anchor ever who also had outside shooting touch and athleticism to play in the pick and roll. It plays well in many teams in any era, and as such I'm unexpectedly voting for Ewing here.

3. Steve Nash 2007
This is between Nash and KD and while KD is the safer choice, I'm going with Nash. The reason for this is largely because if you break it down, Nash and KD both excel on offense, that's what were evaluating here. KD's defense doesn't really move the needle enough for me in a discussion like this to matter that much to me, even compared to Nash. Yes, Nash was a defensive liability but the Suns also didn't have the greatest defenders around him and I think on a better defensive team Nash is intelligent enough that you could cover for him somewhat. 2nd, I would rather a perimeter player be a defensive liability than a big which helps Nash a bit.

Back to offense, Nash is probably a top-5ish offensive player ever with outlier impact numbers and team results. He was an incredible passer and shooter, top 10 all time in both (at worst). His results seem relatively resilient in the postseason and he did so on 2 pretty different teams. Durant only does one thing at a truly great level, which is score, and even that was very inconsistent for most of his postseason career. I don't necessarily have an issue with players that have just 1 elite skill, but it better translate pretty well in the playoffs, and in Durant's case it didn't. His scalability is nice, but I don't think it moves the needle enough in this comparison, especially when Nash's offensives had such great heights. As such, KD will be my next pick.



Based in your reasoning for durant. Wouldnt it also make sense to consider harden/paul over him too?


Yes it would, but I don't think Harden/Paul are as good as Nash offensively so I'm not ready to go there yet.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#13 » by capfan33 » Thu Sep 1, 2022 6:52 pm

AEnigma wrote:
capfan33 wrote:[Kind of a crapshoot for me at this point lol so interested to see what happens.

1. Anthony Davis 2020
I had no intention of voting for Davis at 1st largely because I don't buy his 2020 performance as at all being reflective of his actual level as a player. But thinking about it more even previous versions of Davis, if you buy his playoff performance level in a limited sample, would still probably be 1st for me. Simply put, no one left has the level of 2-way versatility that Davis has. I seriously considered Ewing but ultimately feel a bit more comfortable with Davis' versatility over Ewings incredible rim protection.

2. Patrick Ewing 1990
I'm not very familiar with Ewing overall, but I do know he was a historically great defensive anchor who anchored some of the greatest defenses ever. AEngima's posts in the previous thread are largely the reason for this vote, as he showed how 1990 for Ewing was actually a legitimate outlier for him due to an improved offensive skillset while still maintaining his athleticism, and I suspect that the better defensive results in 93 and 94 are more due to roster construction and coaching than Ewing himself. In a general sense, I like his skillset quite a bit, a legitimate top-10 defensive anchor ever who also had outside shooting touch and athleticism to play in the pick and roll. It plays well in many teams in any era, and as such I'm unexpectedly voting for Ewing here.

3. Steve Nash 2007
This is between Nash and KD and while KD is the safer choice, I'm going with Nash. The reason for this is largely because if you break it down, Nash and KD both excel on offense, that's what were evaluating here. KD's defense doesn't really move the needle enough for me in a discussion like this to matter that much to me, even compared to Nash. Yes, Nash was a defensive liability but the Suns also didn't have the greatest defenders around him and I think on a better defensive team Nash is intelligent enough that you could cover for him somewhat. 2nd, I would rather a perimeter player be a defensive liability than a big which helps Nash a bit.

Back to offense, Nash is probably a top-5ish offensive player ever with outlier impact numbers and team results. He was an incredible passer and shooter, top 10 all time in both (at worst). His results seem relatively resilient in the postseason and he did so on 2 pretty different teams. Durant only does one thing at a truly great level, which is score, and even that was very inconsistent for most of his postseason career. I don't necessarily have an issue with players that have just 1 elite skill, but it better translate pretty well in the playoffs, and in Durant's case it didn't. His scalability is nice, but I don't think it moves the needle enough in this comparison, especially when Nash's offensives had such great heights. As such, KD will be my next pick.

You dropped this :king: Major props for being braver than me and putting Ewing above Durant.



Thanks, appreciate it. And yea I know exactly what you mean, it seems very weird at first to even consider that Ewing was better than KD, but the more I think about it the more I think it's likely correct. Ewing was an insane defender, and even adjusting somewhat for more modern pace and space eras I think he would still be a defensive monster.

I think his defense generally is at least as good, and definitely more resilient than KDs offense and his offense is at least as good as KDs defense. Once again, a center that can step out and hit jumpers has a lot of value even if there not 3s and moreover his athleticism would be great in the pick and roll today.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#14 » by falcolombardi » Thu Sep 1, 2022 10:36 pm

1-1950 george mikan (1951)

As i have said before i dont think there is a right answer to the mikan question of how to evaluate a player who dominated nba early stages when talent pool, game advancement, rules and segregation made it such a different league

But i feel like if we are gonna include him in the project he deserves a placing that more closely indicates how much he dominated the league when he played, otherwise i would prefer to keep pre shot clock seasons out of the project


2-2007 steve nash (2006)

I pick 2007 over 2006 because oh his rather absurd spurs serie but i think either year is a great pick, 2006 has the most impressive regular season leading the suns to a great offense even without amare

I have talked about nash before in this post to explain why i think he may be a (very marginally) better offensive player than curry

Going more in depth. I think criticisms on nash ball dominance or "heliocentrism" are way overstated

Botg because he dominated the ball a lot less than people imagine (people seem to imagine he must have "ball hogged" as much as a luka currently) and because suns offense was way more dinamic than people (and me before rewstching nash suns games) remember it like

If you watch nash suns they are sort of like a reverse motion system.

Instead of having a "static" guy on ball while everyone else cuts/screens the way a team like the warriors do. Nash pushes the pace and makes quick decisions to drive/shot/pass....and he often cancels mid action to improvise somethingh else as everyone else reacts to the advabtage he created

Think running into a leaning jump forward jumper (like a floater but in a 2-handed jumpshot motion) and either hitting it smoothly or throwing a perfect dime on the jump to a cutter who just saw nash do start his jumper and started cutting just in case he gets a pass

Or driving past a big, stopping to freeze the defend, put the big in jail with his back and doing a hand off 2 meters off the rim to a running stoudamire who quicly realized the chance for a hand off dunk

He was not -quite- curry/reggie off ball movement wise but even though he was a on-ball player he was almost always running until he gave up the ball

you rarely saw him walk up the ball slowly or run a slow set. He would always be applying constant pressure in some way and making consistently great quick reads for passing and scoring off the chaos he created

The motion thingh i mention is because diaw,richardson, grant hill, barbosa, marion amd even (and perhaps surprisingly, mainly) stoudamire would "read and react" to nash quickly and cut/spot timely and accurstely to nash moves and then do quick decisions to shoot/pass or drive after receiving his passes

The whole thingh is just so smooth and contradicts the idea that on-ball quarterbacks turn role players into nothingh but lob or 3-point finishers. The suns are a constant moving machine around nash on-ball play in a similar way warriors best offense is a constant movement machine around curry off ball threath

Where a chris paul is like peyton manning running perfectly executed sets, nash is more like a lamar jackson or patrick mahomes. He can run, pass, run pass and you never know which is coming as he is always moving.

That is the best way to describe nash, he is always moving, he just does it more on ball than curry and more than your usual ball handler

You dont create the arguably goat offense relative to era with "just" a 6 foot guard playing pick and roll as everyonr else spots up. Nash is not big enough to just do a lebron through teams and get to the paint to score nonstop. He is a bit too small for that. Instead he achieves this by creating openings consistently that all of his twammates or himself later in the play can exploit to score

Where lebron and curry always "start with white" so to speak. Aka curry and lebron sort of compromise the defense before the play even starts cause their shooting or driving threat is so big that teams react preventively to take that option away. They always play chess with 1 move advantage as far as compromising the defense goes

Nash instead doesnt cause either effect (maybe if he shot mpre 3's today?) As teams didnt guard his 3 as tightly as curry's and he obviously is not lebron going to the paint.

Instead he maximizes his skillset to the max exploiting every small advantage by pushing the pace, using his handles and size to sneak in the paint and put the defense in an awkward position to stop his passing and because he is a more gifted passer/decision maker than curry and even bron. He makes it work. He does thinghs then reacts mid move to the defense reaction and finds somethingh ovet and over.

His motor/agressiveness may be low key as valuable as his mind, handles or jumper. And all these 4 thinghs combine for a perfect package that wouldnt work nearly as well if only one of the 4 thinghs was lesser

I think both are incresible offensive players who created absurd results when they got a coach (D'Antoni and kerr) who had a revolutionary approach based on their skillset.

But of the two it is nash who has the overall better offensive results relative to era and resiliency in my opinion. I suspect because he is faster at adapting to the defense and finding the best way to change the team approach than curry


I think he is a negative in defense due to his small size and frame making him a permanently (negative) mismatch on any player he guards but he ammeliorates this with good effort and rotations

3-2019 james harden (2018, 2020)

one of the best one man army offense players in league history. Notable playoffs drop but he drop down from very high regular season highs. At his best was able to be both an all time level "floor raiser" and combine well results wise with another ballhandlers and offensive co star in more shared roles

I think he is a ok enough defender in that he is not the best off ball defender but holds his own 1vs1 and has surprising ability on "mismatches" in the post against bigger players which has tactical usefulness

My biggest worry i suppose is that unlike other helios (nash, lebron to a lesser degree paul) his team offensive results just seem to fall a notch below and he seems to take a bigger hit in the playoffs. Still his durability in his iron man years puts him over paul for me

4- 2020 anthony davis (2018)

Just one of the most valuable and "portable" seasons ever. Absolutely elite defense, great iso scoring, spacing and elite off-ball skills.

Only reason to not be as high on him is like with paul, he is so fragile he may get injured at really any moment AND is not as reliable being the guy you run your offense through.

Honestly other than durability i dont think his peak is worse than robinson but that may be controversial

His playoffs run was just the stuff of legends so that propels him above paul who om average i have as the better player
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#15 » by AEnigma » Thu Sep 1, 2022 11:06 pm

I think peak/prime Davis’s injury history has become a bit overstated.

2015: 68/82 games played, all because of mostly random short term injuries spread out across the season.

2016: 65/82. Fourteen of those seventeen games were missed at the end of the season when the Pelicans were not in playoff contention; he likely would have returned if needed.

2017: 75/82. Good.

2018: 75/82. Good.

2019: 56/82, plus a bunch of partial participation games. This is the main one, but like 2016 I think team context is relevant. He sprains a finger mid-January with the team already a few games below .500. He misses nine games and then returns, but his participation is spotty for the remainder of the season. Mind you Rich Paul is openly trying to orchestrate a trade to the Lakers, Davis is pretty upfront about not intending to re-sign with the Pelicans when his contract does expire, and the team is clearly not making a playoff push. Not exactly a “hampered for the postseason” situation.

2020: 62/72. Did develop some minor injuries in the Finals which he was fine playing through (and if we start counting those types of injuries, Chris Paul looks even worse).

Spelled out like that, is it really worse than 2015-20 Durant?
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#16 » by trelos6 » Fri Sep 2, 2022 1:27 am

24. Kevin Durant. 2017. 28 pp75 at +10 rTS%. I know Curry was grabbing the attention, giving KD easier looks, but we don’t dock Kareem for playing with Magic, Jordan for playing with Scottie and Rodman (offensive rebounds), or Kobe for playing with Shaq.

25. Steve Nash 2007. Engine of an amazing offense (+7.5 team rOrtg) and was a lights out shooter. He was 19.8 ppg on +11.3 rTS%.

26. 2007-08 Chris Paul. James Harden 2017-19, Reggie Miller, Anthony Davis 2020. Lots of guys to consider in this spot. I’m ultimately leaning with Chris Paul. As impressive as a switching bug who protects the paint and shoot 3’s is, CP3 was an elite offensive initiator AND point of attack defender. For these reasons I give him then nod at 25.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#17 » by SickMother » Fri Sep 2, 2022 3:07 am

01 Hawkins 67-68: 28.8 PER | .597 TS% | 124 TS+ | 17.5 WS | .273 WS/48
01 Hawkins 67-68 Playoffs?!?: 30.0 PER | .651 TS% | 4.0 WS | .310 WS/48
[maybe thee unluckiest player in basketball history, robbed of his collegiate & early NBA career by completely spurious gambling allegations, then derailed by a knee injury which occurred amidst the ABA Championship in this very season.

but there was never any doubt Connie could ball from the outset as one of the original NYC greats at Rucker Park & being named the best high school player in the country in 1960. As for his 67-68 peak, the Hawk simply did everything. Topped the brand new ABA in PPG on monster efficiency, 2nd in the league in RPG, 3rd in the league in APG. Then took his game to a whole other level in the playoffs, hurting his knee during the Championship series & returning to lead his team to the top in heroic fashion even before Willis Reed (or Giannis) did it.

I get it, the 67-68 ABA is probably the 2nd weakest competition level to receive a vote so far besides 49-50 Mikan, but Hawkins had no alternative, it was the best league available to him due to his illegal blacklisting from the NBA & he thoroughly dominated it across the board. Also think that Connie's peak game works in any era with his mix of size, athleticism and all around skillset.]

02 Durant 16-17: 27.6 PER | .651 TS% | 118 TS+ | 12.0 WS | .278 WS/48
02 Durant 16-17 Playoffs?!?: 27.5 PER | .683 TS% | 3.1 WS | .280 WS/48
[one of thee most ridiculous shooting seasons of all time, but diminished somewhat by the nature of the precedings. Can see the case for OKC KD because the regular seasons had so much more volume, or even 17-18 where Curry missed 30 RS games so KD had to shoulder a larger RS load before winning another FMVP.] (02B/C/D Durant 13-14 / 12-13 / 17-18)

03 Moses 82-83: 25.1 PER | .578 TS% | 109 TS+ | 15.1 WS | .248 WS/48
03 Moses 82-83 Playoffs?!?: 25.7 PER | .587 TS% | 2.8 WS | .260 WS/48
[at this point on the list all the candidates have their flaws, but Moses is one of the few guys left whose negative attributes didn't stop him from leading his team on a dominant Championship run.]
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#18 » by iggymcfrack » Fri Sep 2, 2022 4:11 am

1. 2016-17 Russell Westbrook- Deserved MVP over 2 peaks that have been voted in already from the same season plus an all-time LeBron year. The triple doubles are what get remembered that year, but Russ also led the league in PER and BPM, ranking 22nd and 15th all-time respectively. His clutch scoring was incredible. He brought the Thunder back from down 14, hit the game-tying shot and then won in overtime against Orlando. He scored 12 points in the final 3:30 and hit the game-winner to beat the Mavericks. He scored the Thunder’s last 15 points and hit a buzzer-beater to beat the Nuggets. He, himself, went on a 15-0 run in the final 2:35 to beat the Grizzlies. He scored 11 of the Thunder’s final 13 points and hit a game-winner vs. the Jazz. Russ scored 19 of OKC’s last 22 against the Trail Blazers. It really was an incredible all-time performance just to get that team to the playoffs. Once he got there? Russ did everything he could. He averaged an unheard of 37/12/11/2 leading the playoffs in PPG, APG, and SPG. His on/off went from +12.5 in the regular season to +62.8 in the playoffs. There really were no holes in his game. I've been as much of a Russ detractor as anyone at various times and I thought the Chris Paul trade was one of the most lopsided trades in the history of the NBA when it happened, but for one magical season, Russ really was one of the most dominant players in the history of the NBA.

2. 2013-14 Chris Paul (2008, 2009, 2011, 2015, 2016, 2017)- Chris Paul had tremendous impact and box score stats year after year. One strong RAPM had him rank ahead of KD 10 seasons in a row which is tough even for a vastly superior player just due to random chance and outliers. He's got several top 2 seasons by pretty much any impact stat you use. He has maybe the best ever box score season for a point guard. He also constantly ranks very high in DRAPM and is able to switch on to much larger players, even defending KD effectively in the 2018 Western Conference Finals. He's arguably the best defensive PG of all-time as well. The only question mark on his record has been getting it done in the playoffs. Well in 2014, he led the Clippers past Steph Curry and the Warriors in Round 1, putting up 22 and 14 with 4 steals on .640 TS% in Game 7. Then, in the next round his Clippers faced the KD/Westbrook Thunder and were +47 with CP3 on the floor, only losing because they were -52 with him on the bench.

3. 2005-06 Steve Nash (2005, 2007)- Incredible impact metrics that outperformed his box score more than almost anyone in NBA history despite being a very weak defender. Consistently led some of the best offenses in NBA history despite Phoenix being 21st in ORtg the year before he came. Won back-to-back MVPs going up against Shaq, KG, Duncan, and Kobe all in their primes. Over an 8 year span in Phoenix from age 30 to age 37, Nash had an overall plus/minus of +11. In his 2006 season, the Suns played 20 games in a conference finals run and were +6 with Nash on the floor and -14 with him on the bench. Incredibly valuable in his given situation.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#19 » by f4p » Fri Sep 2, 2022 10:28 am

falcolombardi wrote:
DraymondGold wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:Here's the top 23 so far compared to last time as far as net changes.

1. 1990-91 Michael Jordan(-)
2. 2012-13 LeBron James(-)
3. 1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal(+1)
4. 1976-77 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar(+1)
5. 1966-67 Wilt Chamberlain(-2)
6. 2002-03 Tim Duncan(-)
7. 1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon(+2)
8. 1963-64 Bill Russell(-)
9. 1985-86 Larry Bird(-2)
10. 1986-87 Magic Johnson(-)
11. 2016-17 Stephen Curry(+4)
12. 2003-04 Kevin Garnett(-)
13. 2020-21 Giannis Antetokounmpo(+18)
14. 1963-64 Oscar Robertson(-)
15. 1965-66 Jerry West(+2)
16. 2021-22 Nikola Jokic(not on prior top 40, +25??)
17. 1976-77 Bill Walton(-4)
18. 2005-06 Dwyane Wade(-2)
19. 2007-08 Kobe Bryant(+1)
20. 1993-94 David Robinson(-2)
21. 2016-17 Kawhi Leonard(+6)
22. 1975-76 Julius Erving(-10!!!)
23. 2010-11 Dirk Nowitzki(-4)

The top 10 is mostly unchanged aside from a few minor up or downs. Curry somehow jumped 4 places, even fending off the rise of Jokic and Giannis. Giannis jumped 18 places, his 21' and 22' seasons are a good bit better than his 2019, but 18 places better? I'm doubtful but that's what happened. Jokic went from not being in to 16th, coming in I thought figured he was basically a top 15 lock maybe even get as high as 11 or 12 but there was more concern about his defense than I expected, so he fell. Kobe continues to get better over the past few projects, going up one spot despite Jokic and Giannis' additions.

Kawhi moved up a lot, as expected, he got unfairly penalized in the last project for resting in the regular season or some crap. Dr J really got his teeth kicked in in this project, but I think that's more just due to the randomness of who's voting rather than some major shift against him. KD will probably end the same at 24, and Cp3 likely goes up a few. AD will likely make the 30. I think Harden being ranked 35th was pretty ridiculous last time, like somehow Dwight and Artis Gilmore got ahead. Strangely, I don't think he moves up more than 2-3 spots this time. Tmac hasn't received a single vote yet, I wouldn't be surprised to see him drop well over 10 spots.
Nice post! It's always fun to have check-ins to see how things have changed :D

There's lots of different lenses we might look at this later on in the post-project review thread (e.g. valuing defense vs offense, scalability/ceiling raising vs floor raising, championship bias, etc.), but to me one of the themes that jumped out is valuing the recent set of peaks higher.

Curry, Giannis, Jokic, Kawhi are the top 4 risers and they're all the most recent peaks ~since 2015.. As you mention, Davis is certainly likely to rise as is Harden. Durant is likely to stay the same. The only recent peak likely to fall is Westbrook.

The only other risers so far are Kobe (fairly recent), Hakeem who switched with Bird, and Shaq/Kareem who switched with Wilt. That means peaks from the past ~10 years make up ~60% of the relative improvements in the list.

I wonder how much of this is:
A) More recency bias relative to the last project (which would suggest this project is less accurate)
B) Better hindsight and sample size allowing us to more accurately rate the modern players (which would suggest this project is more accurate)
C) Better peaks occurring since our last project, like 2022 Jokic (which we obviously can't fault the last project for, since those peaks hadn't happened yet).
[disclaimer: since the classic response to these Project-comparison posts are that the change is primarily from having different personnel, we can still compare how much factors A, B, and C are different in this voting pool vs the last voting pool]

You suggest 21 Giannis is a bit of C (new peak since the last project) and a bit of A (recency bias), which I tend to agree on. Jokic is likely more a case of C, since 22 Jokic >> 18/19 Jokic. I tend to think Curry's more a case of B, though I'm sure people would disagree and think it's A.
I'm not sold on Kawhi being better than Durant/Dirk, but like you say this likely suggests a change in what our voters value compared to the last project (e.g. being more accepting of regular season coasting, less concerned about injury risks, etc.)



Julius could be explained by greater debate on his up and down impact metrics making people more wary of him

Jokic is just a guy who reached a level of play we never saw coming

Giannis helped solve many of the doubts on him last 2 post seasons + less pushback against the new guy ( i am a firm believer that at least in this board we trend to be low on current peaks as we try to avoid recency bias and wait for a bigger sample to look at)

Curry i would argue is a player who helped solve a lot of doubts on his playoffs play this season, even though the vote was not on 2022 season, his success this postseason made people more confident he could have tvrived without durant in 2017

Kawhi....i am honestly not sure?

Durant fall ...also not sure. He is probably gonna be more where i would rank him this time (outside the top 20 imo) but i am unsure what changed in people perceptions of him vs previous projects


the durant one is easy. this board loves curry. they took the recency bias of the 2022 title (with some hilariously trying to convince themselves this might even be peak curry because uhh...he's stronger?) and decided they needed to meld 2016/17 so they could get curry up high. i believe even higher than his Top 100 ranking, which is funny because no one has any problem ranking other people's peaks below their Top 100. anyway, you can't really pump curry up unless you are going to downplay durant and make him out to be the sidekick. so now we've got people putting a guy with a dominant 2014 season and 3 other runner-up mvp's to prime lebron behind patrick ewing, who didn't even have a top 3 mvp season. seems a little weird for a peaks project. maybe the people doing that didn't directly do it because they love curry, but only because it's been talked up enough that everyone has now convinced themselves KD really was just along for the ride on the warriors, ignoring the inconvenient evidence that they didn't win once he was off the ride.


edit: wow, went and looked at the Top 100, which was from late 2020. i realize that's top 100 and this is peaks, but not only was steph not ahead by this much, he wasn't even ahead of durant (#22/#24). and it's not like the last 2 years were some landslide for curry. it was basically a wash, with steph having a better 2021 regular season because of games played but KD being amazing in the playoffs (even if steph played, he wasn't matching that) and then this year KD having the easy regular season advantage but steph being better in the playoffs. i guess you could infer that for similarly ranked players, the guy with a shorter career would have a little higher peak, but that's a pretty huge peaks advantage for someone without a career advantage.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #24 

Post#20 » by f4p » Fri Sep 2, 2022 11:00 am

AEnigma wrote:I mean I struggle with that too. None of those three are Nash tier at generating offence. Paul has easily the worst postseason durability, so that is a simple enough out. Harden versus Durant is tougher, but team-building around Durant offers more flexibility than team-building around Harden,


based on?

even for as much as that can be oversold for Durant. Said it before, but maybe Harden and Embiid will tear it up this year (and in the future) and make this project’s stance on both look a bit dumb to the next project.


this project's stance already looks fairly iffy (though i suppose i should give credit based on harden apparently being 35th last time, he's moved up from artis gilmore to multiple time team ORtg champ steve nash), but i'm not sure what embiid plus harden is supposed to tell you, that you don't already know? it seems you would just like a test you know a past-his-prime harden will likely fail because he's past his prime, not because he doesn't fit with other players. apparently his first real great teammate being chris paul and them knocking it out of the park wasn't enough (at least while cp3 was healthy). apparently the nets team, where people were wondering if these oh so terrible ballhogs could ever learn to share, looking amazing even when they usually only got 2 of the 3 on the court and looking unbelievably good when they actually got all 3 on the court, that wasn't enough (again, when actually healthy). no harden must pass the real test, producing outsized results with joel embiid (who hasn't exactly ever come close to outsized results) when he's 33 years old and doesn't look anything like himself. top offenses with role players isn't enough. top offenses and top team results with stars isn't enough. i mean there's a good chance harden's time is done. he got unlucky with having a dynasty in the way and with injuries on his best teams. being bad now won't somehow make 2019 harden worse.


Until then, I think it is a valid enough question to use to separate. I like Harden a lot more with a squad of role-players,


you mean you're more used to seeing harden with role players. because kevin durant has literally never played a season since his rookie year without a teammate who went on to or had already won mvp. who knows what happens if harden got like 12 cracks at mvp teammates.

In that capacity I probably like Harden more, and I struggle less to envision him winning a title in those circumstances, but the problem is neither player seems especially close to winning a title like that,


he led an all-time great, 65-wins-without-even-having-great-health team to game 7 against another all-time great team with his best teammate hurt. that feels pretty close and like it would have worked in most seasons in nba history. or did you mean not close with role players? because then yeah, that applies to everybody in this range.

so then it feels like it should matter that Durant is the simpler addition to more rosters.


again, based on what? we've only really seen him "added" to a 73 win team. the only other addition would be the nets, a team that also had harden. a team that got way better with harden on it compared to without harden (29-7 vs 19-17) and that basically kept that up over the full 2 years, even with harden being pretty bad this year (55-25 with harden, 37-37 without, 5-3 in playoffs with harden (including the 3 injured milwaukee games), 2-6 without). at the very least you apparently better have a distributor on the team if you want durant.

and that 73 win team he got added to, that everybody immediately assumed was so talent imbalanced it was pointless for the rest of the league? why exactly did that show such amazing portability? i mean good fit or bad fit wasn't that enough talent to seemingly ensure 3 titles? if it's so easy and works so well, shouldn't kevin durant plus steph curry plus someone just as valuable and impactful as 2018 chris paul (2018 draymond) plus klay thompson, have made easy work of james harden and chris paul? not only was that be an amazing talent advantage, but apparently a fit advantage as well. i mean, why were the guy with the #11 peak and easy to fit kevin durant, trailing a DPOY behind them with another hall of famer to spare, losing 3-2 one time and playing a super close 6 game series the other? either harden is so insanely talented he can overcome a huge team talent and team fit disadvantage to make it close, or he fits pretty well, or something is off on the equation on the other side for the team where it should have been very easy.

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