Wait..weren't the Knicks Donovan Mitchell packages better?

[Hatrick Ewing]

I'm surprised that I haven't seen this discussed very much.

-isn't some combination of the Knicks players that are mostly on rookie contracts (Toppin, Grimes, Quickly) more valuable asset wise than Colin Sexton and Lauri Markannen? Could Colin Sexton fetch more than a mid first round pick or worse in any trade?

-The Knicks gave up one less unprotected first round pick (supposedly they offered that pick with a top 5 protection at some point). I know that anything can happen, but because the Cavaliers now have 4 young all stars, isn't it EXTREMELY unlikely that their 2029 pick ends up being a top 5 pick? They are more hedged against being terrible because they have so many good pieces than even a team who has one great superstar who might leave during that time. Furthermore, wouldn't you MUCH rather have the other Knicks picks than the Cavs picks that they received? Doesn't the fact that the Cavs are now considered to be much better than the Knicks would've been considered if they got Mitchell, in itself, proof of that?

[BK_2020]

It's unlikely for a pick to be top 5, period, especially in a league where in any given season 6-8 teams are tanking. You have to try to get in the top 5. You need to literally not have a home game like the 2020-21 Raptors AND get a favorable roll to achieve a top 5 pick.

[Lockdown504090]

I think the chance of the cavalier picks being very good is pretty low considering that they have 22 year old stars and high level role players in Allen and garland. Mobley might be a superstar. Even with an injury there’s no shot the cavs are in the lotto in the next 7 years.

The Knicks have 30 years of mismanagement, Their stupidity would have me value their pucks pretty highly

[BK_2020]

Allen and Garland were literally all-stars last season, how are they role players lmfao.

[iLLmatic860]

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Ainge was tryna make us pay the NY tax

[Statlanta]

I thought the Knicks offered better players but Ainge might value Cavs players more.

Also Utah might want to spite the Knicks and/or Mitchell himself since Mitchell's rumors were to NY and no other team.

[Hatrick Ewing]

Is it possible that Ainge has pride about making these historic "fleecing" trades (rightfully so) and that getting the largest number of picks were more likely to continue that narrative vs. if the Knicks still gave up a lot but didn't give up his insane asking price?

I think he may have made a mistake here, as perhaps the most likely scenario here amounts to him getting essentially Colin Sexton and late first round picks, vs. the Knicks offer which could've been a historic goldmine.

[iLLmatic860]

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Pat Riley didnt even want to deal with Ainge.

The price tag that Wolves and Cavs paid. I feel like theres gonna be alot of teams who are hesitant to deal with Jazz lol Guess there tanking for the next 10 years so they have nothing to worry about lol

[dockingsched]

Allen and Garland were literally all-stars last season, how are they role players lmfao.

High level role player is the perfect description of Allen who got into the all star game as a replacement.

[SelfishPlayer]

The Cavs included better players IMO than the Knicks.

[Curmudgeon]

Ainge didn't want good players. He wanted picks and players who were easily moveable, like Sexton and Markannen. He did not want to find a new home for guys like Barrett.

[PapaBear53]

The Knicks picks were better. Cavs players were better IMHO. Knicks wouldn't add Grimes so that's a moot point there. Agbaji was just a lottery pick, so in essence they got 4 unprotected firsts from the Cavs with two rotation players and two pick swaps (which may not even be used since the Cavs picks will probably be worse than the Jazz' own picks. Sexton, if he stays healthy, can give the Jazz everything RJ Barrett could at a far cheaper price. Which offer would I prefer? I think that's an eye of the beholder type of thing.

[taikibansei]

The Cavs included better players IMO than the Knicks.

Sexton was not a good player before the season-ending knee injury. That’s why the Cavs were low-balling him in the salary negotiations…before Danny swooped in to save the day! When Sexton returns from injury, who knows how he’ll be? Not very good at all is my guess.

[taikibansei]

Ainge didn't want good players. He wanted picks and players who were easily moveable, like Sexton and Markannen. He did not want to find a new home for guys like Barrett.

He got worse picks, and I doubt Sexton is going to be considered positive value in a trade moving forward.

[Catchall]

Knicks never offered 3 unprotected FRPs. Reportedly, they didn't agree to pick swaps or 2RPs either in the last offer they made, which was RJ, IQ and 2 unprotected FRPs. Extending RJ in the middle of negotiations complicated things as well.

Depending on how you view RJ Barrett on his new deal, he's the best player being discussed, but guys like Toppin, Quickley or Grimes aren't better than Sexton, Markkanen or Agbaji. Cavs also gave the pick package the Jazz wanted.

Jazz are expecting Mitchell to enter free agency with the cap set to increase in the summer of '25. In other words, the expected cap spike is going to prevent players from signing extensions.

[dc]

The price tag that Wolves and Cavs paid. I feel like theres gonna be alot of teams who are hesitant to deal with Jazz lol Guess there tanking for the next 10 years so they have nothing to worry about lol

A bit over the top. Philly did the one of the most extreme tank jobs of all time and were out of the playoffs for 5 years. By comparison, the Lakers between Kobe's twilight years and Lebron's 1st year there actually missed the playoffs 6 years in a row, but nobody ever talks about that.

Remember that when the Stockton/Malone era ended in Utah, people figured the Jazz were gonna be bottom dwellers for the longest time. Then all they had was 1 tank season sandwiched between two .500 seasons and then they were right back in the playoffs. I wouldn't dismiss what has historically been a well run franchise as some team that's never going to see the playoffs for a decade.

They're not the Kings or Chris Cohan era Warriors.

[Catchall]

The Cavs included better players IMO than the Knicks.

Sexton was not a good player before the season-ending knee injury. That’s why the Cavs were low-balling him in the salary negotiations…before Danny swooped in to save the day! When Sexton returns from injury, who knows how he’ll be? Not very good at all is my guess.

Jazz like Sexton, enough to give him a 4-year guaranteed deal. They were pursuing Sexton regardless of the Mitchell trade.

[SelfishPlayer]

The Cavs included better players IMO than the Knicks.

Sexton was not a good player before the season-ending knee injury. That’s why the Cavs were low-balling him in the salary negotiations…before Danny swooped in to save the day! When Sexton returns from injury, who knows how he’ll be? Not very good at all is my guess.

He's still young...

[Zeno]

Knicks had too many assets to offer. Danny didn't want to leave the Knicks with a surplus to make another move later. I really like the Cavs team but you never know what could happen and if they have horrible luck, they are devoid of assets and are in Cleveland. So while I think the Knicks picks are most likely better, the Cleveland upside(downside) is pretty significant.

[taikibansei]

Knicks never offered 3 unprotected FRPs.

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Again, I think people keep making a mistake when they argue from an assumption that both parties in these negotiations (Danny and Leon) were acting rationally and logically--and not emotionally--throughout. Again, there's evidence to suggest they weren't, to include Lowe's report that people in "Utah were furious about the Knicks executives showing up to the playoff game in Dallas":

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Feel free to read/listen to how/why Lowe believes this supposed "slight" impacted the negotiations. Just a reminder, those playoff games were back in April--i.e., well before trading for Mitchell would have been thought possible--and the Knicks were likely there to see Brunson. Again, I could certainly understand Cuban being pissed--I have no idea why Danny and the gang would have been angry.

There are also numerous reports suggesting that Danny and Leon never talked directly, and that Leon became increasingly upset at what he thought was "disrespect." Again, none of us were there--at least I wasn't--but this is Woj saying that the offer was made, and Lowe saying Danny (and Leon) both got upset about stuff that (imo) shouldn't have been part of the trade negotiations.

What I think happened is that Leon started the negotiations with an absurdly (at least to me) high bid--far higher than what Danny eventually got from Cleveland--hoping to close the deal quickly. And Danny for whatever reason--possibly he was still angry at the "slight" from April--said no and asked for more. And then Leon got pissed and lowered his offer. And Danny raised his demands. And Leon lowered his offer again. Rinse, wash, and repeat...for two wasted months.

Again, I never wanted Mitchell at that price for Knicks. Mitchell went to a far better place--the Cavs retained multiple plus defenders and high-end offensive threats to complement him. With that core, they likely will compete for top-4 in the East for at least the duration of Mitchell's contract--rendering their unprotected frps no big loss. On the other hand, even our first offer would have left the Knicks at best a play-in contender for the duration of Mitchell's contract. (Much more likely, we would have been in the lottery throughout, without assets to make another trade...and with all our frps going to Utah.)

Basically, Danny saved us from ourselves.