JonFromVA wrote:Pointgod wrote:HotelVitale wrote:Meh, that 'narrative' is for stupid people so no need to keep spending your time arguing down. No one worth your discussion really thinks Ainge is a 'mastermind' or some next level genius that can somehow create leverage out of thin air. It's an interesting decision for him to take the Cavs package over the Knicks' best one, but it's also not that hard to see the justification for it. Plenty of good posters on here with whom you can argue about those justifications rather than wasting time bashing a strawman.
Hatrick you left out Agbaji, probably the most valuable non-pick asset in this deal. And to an extent Markkannen is there just as the most desirable salary filler--Jazz might not love him but would still rather have him than guys Knicks would've had to attach (e.g. Fournier). Pointgod you left out the fact that Barrett might easily not be a good player and would've commanded at least $25m starting next year no matter what. Polarizing player and lots of GMs wouldn't want to bet big on him.
I like the Knicks package a little more cuz of what you all said about the picks but I think they both sort of suck, and I could see taking the max of non-protected picks above all. All the Markkanens and Mitch Robinsons and Quickleys and whatnot won't matter much at all in their ultimate trajectory so they'd rather have more potential for blue-chip assets even if the chances aren't that great. (Also young teams fall apart all the time, like all the time. OKC went from best young team of all time to full rebuild in less than 7 years, the Rose-Noah-Deng Bulls went from ECF to bottom 5, Jailblazers went from WCF to the basement, etc. Seven years is an eternity in the NBA.)
Oh the Ainge jock riding is getting pretty unbearable. Just feel free to peruse the posts in this thread which the title is a perfect example of the Ainge narrative.
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2223169Moving onto Barrett your assessment is way off. He’s already an above average player in just his third year on a team where he’s second in usage and is coached by someone who’s offensively inept. For him to turn into a not good player would require a serious injury or his stats taking a dip across the board with a decrease in efficiency. I’d like to see him play under a new coach with a change of scenery before writing him off.
And even if the Jazz had traded for RJ, it doesn’t mean they have to extend him. They could low ball his extension, let him hit restricted free agency or trade him. What the Jazz do with his contract is independent of what the Knicks ended up doing. I strongly believe RJ returns more value in a trade than either Sexton or Markkanen who both make 30 million + combined over the next 3 years while Rose is on an expiring contract (you don’t need Fournier to make salary work if you trade RJ). Also you can’t on one hand complain about Barrett’s extension then ignore that two less valuable players, Markkanen and Sexton, make way more money combined. Of the rest of the non pick assets I’d rank Toppin over Abaji pretty easily and while Quickley is like a poor man’s Sexton.
So going back to Ainge I think the Knicks offer was superior to what he ended up taking from the Cavs but it also might have been much earlier on in negotiations while the Cavs offer was later. I don’t think Ainge was deciding between the two at the last minute but I do believe Knicks threw the offer on the table and Ainge being greedy wanted to squeeze more picks. That should absolutely be held against him because he ended up with a worse package not just from a picks standpoint but also a total asset value and salary flexibility standpoint.
Everyone is going to value the players involved differently (including Ainge), but what was driving the trade was the number of unprotected picks, and in that case the further down the line they convey the better because they can be traded at any point until then.
Of course Ainge was greedy, but Leon Rose miscalculated and opened the window for the Cavs.
And while I realize 6'6" RJ Barrett will forever look more like a SG than 6'1" Collin Sexton or even 6'1" Donovan Mitchell ... he statistically regressed big time in spite of increasing his scoring to 20ppg. His efficiency got worse, his 3pt% dropped, and the Knicks were drastically better both on offense AND on defense when RJ was off the floor. RJ will need to show he's worth $30M/year before he becomes a positive asset.
We can come up with excuses, but we can play the same game with other players too.
You're kinda missing what happened with the team around him last season by chalking everything up too RJ and none of it up to the regression of: the defense around RJ while his responsibilities were increased, the team's #1 option from the best year of his career to the worst, & the implosion that happened to us at the PG position...even though those all played into things alongside RJ's own poorer shooting to exacerbate his regression statistically.
You're also missing the development he did show that let him get to the rim enough to score 20 a night even with his shot not falling like it did the previous year & the team being so much worse...as his handle & footwork took a huge leap last season; especially after the new year. RJ finally started looking fluid when he attacked and was no longer the super robotic stiff has been since high school.
...and if RJ hits his bonuses to earn 30M a year, cracking an all-NBA team and all-defensive team in 3 out of 4 seasons; he'll be well worth that money & more. For now, he's making 26M a year on a deal that will see him start as the 20-something highest-paid wing in the league next year, which he still needs to prove he's worth.
...but proving he can be an average starter isn't an unrealistic ask if his shooting bounces back with the improved PG play he'll enjoy this year; even if he doesn't add a new dimension to his game this offseason like he has the last two (C&S in year 1, handle/footwork last summer).
Capn'O wrote:We're the recovering meth addict older brother. And we've been clean for a few years now, thank you very much. Very uncouth to bring it up.
Brunson: So what are you paid to do?
Hart: Run around like an idiot during the game and f*** s*** up!
Yeah, we'll suck for a while. Best to enjoy it.
