Eurobasket 2022 (daily OP updates), day 11, all quarter finals teams known, Italy shocks Europe, eliminates Serbia

[zzzyyxyyxzzz]

Lorenzo Brown is still an outlier. Ibaka moved to Spain when he was 17/18 and he played for Spanish teams before getting drafted. Mirotić moved to Spain when he was 14 and he played there before getting drafted as well. Oleson has spent 14 years, almost his whole career, playing for Spanish clubs. All 3 of them had some kind of relationship with the country. Lorenzo Brown has none.

Yes, I agree, not every naturalized player is the same, but I still dont like it. Honestly, I do swallow Mirotic and Ibaka naturalization more comfortably, not because they lived in Spain, it is just these could have easily played for their real nation, but if they really prefer to play for another country, ok, thats interesting. I say this, cause most naturalized players are American and you cant say the same thing about them. Most of these guys get hired, because they would never have a shot at playing for team USA. If Lorenzo Brown had a real choice, he would not choose Spain is what I am saying.

Yeah, I hear you. As I said before, I have no issue if the naturalized player has played in that country's league for a significant period of time. But when it comes to players who have never played in that country then, well, even I consider it problematic

I used to completely agree with this (kinda still do in theory), but I've come to realize in practice it doesn't really work. How many parents (or grandparents) need to be from the country in question to make it ok? How many years of play in the local country would make a player elegible? Plus, that in itself favors strong basketball leagues/countries like Spain, Greece, Turkey... which attract and develop foreign players in the first place.
In the end, the system in place now is fair to everyone, in my opinion. You get one naturalized player per team, and players can't switch countries once they play for one.
Look at small countries like Montenegro, which played Spain today. Population of 600,000. Spain has 10 cities with a bigger population than that! Obviously they will take advantage and use a naturalized player.
Take Doncic as an example. Slovenia (nationality, but no professional playing time), Spain (professional) and Serbia (his father is half Serbian) all wanted him on their team. Let the guy choose (and the teams the one player) and that's it.
It elevates the game in the end, and makes it more competitive. It gives players a chance to prove themselves on the world stage that they otherwise would not have (with their home country's team).

[Nuntius]

Some very interesting games tomorrow. Group A, in particular, is sort of insane. The winner of the group will be determined by Turkey-Spain. As for the other two games, if Bulgaria beats Belgium and Georgia beats Montenegro then we're going to have a quadruple tie between these 4 teams and in that case, well, all bets are off. It will depend on point differentials and we may see some crazy stuff happening towards the end of these games.

Meanwhile, in group B, Lithuania is playing for their lives against Bosnia. The winner of that matchup advances, the loser is out. France-Slovenia is the game that will determine who wins the group. If Slovenia beats France then they win the group. If France beats Slovenia and Germany beats Hungary then Germany wins the group. If France beats Slovenia and Hungary beats Germany then France wins the group.

Group C is a bit more clear cut than the previous two. Greece has locked in the first spot while Estonia and Great Britain are out. So, the 4 teams that will advance are locked in. What remains to be determined tomorrow is the 2-4 seeding. If Ukraine beats Croatia then they are 2nd, no matter what. If Croatia beats Ukraine and Italy loses to Great Britain then Croatia is 2nd. If Croatia beats Ukraine and Italy beats Great Britain then we're going to have a triple tie. In the event of a triple tie between these three teams, then we're going down to point differential and that's an issue for Italy because they lost to Ukraine by 11 and they only beat Croatia by 6.

Last but not least, group B has 3 teams that have punched in their ticket to the next round. Serbia, who is unbeaten and has locked in the 1st spot, Poland and Finland. These three teams have secured a spot to the next round, regardless of what happens tomorrow. The last spot will be determined by the Czech Republic-Israel game. The winner of this matchup advances to the next round, the loser is out. Israel has a chance of finishing 3rd if they win and they end up tying with Finland, since they beat them in the head-to-head, but for that to happen they absolutely need to beat the Czech Republic and they also need Poland to beat Serbia since they lose out in a possible triple tie with Poland and Finland. Poland will be 2nd if they beat Serbia but, of course, that's not an easy task unless Serbia decides to rest their main players. If Finland beats the Netherland and Poland loses to Serbia then Finland is 2nd and Poland is 3rd.

Disclaimer: I am not 100% sure if what I wrote above is accurate. This is simply my current understanding of the tie-breaker scenarios. I could always be wrong.

[Nuntius]

I used to completely agree with this (kinda still do in theory), but I've come to realize in practice it doesn't really work. How many parents (or grandparents) need to be from the country in question to make it ok? How many years of play in the local country would make a player elegible?

Any kind of connection is ok to me. One grandparent, one year in the league of said country, anything. Even the slightest connection is fine by my book. I only have an issue with it when there is no connection at all.

Plus, that in itself favors strong basketball leagues/countries like Spain, Greece, Turkey... which attract and develop foreign players in the first place.

Absolutely. Which is why I understand it when a small country like Bosnia, Montenegro, Georgia or North Macedonia does it. They need to remain competitive so they're forced to do it. I'm not going to rake these countries over the coals for doing it. But when a country with a strong league like Spain does that same thing then, well, that is something that grinds my gears.

In the end, the system in place now is fair to everyone, in my opinion. You get one naturalized player per team, and players can't switch countries once they play for one.
Look at small countries like Montenegro, which played Spain today. Population of 600,000. Spain has 10 cities with a bigger population than that! Obviously they will take advantage and use a naturalized player.
Take Doncic as an example. Slovenia (nationality, but no professional playing time), Spain (professional) and Serbia (his father is half Serbian) all wanted him on their team. Let the guy choose (and the teams the one player) and that's it.
It elevates the game in the end, and makes it more competitive. It gives players a chance to prove themselves on the world stage that they otherwise would not have (with their home country's team).

I agree with letting the player choose. I never said anything to the contrary of that.

[DanEu]

I'm really looking forward to Slovenia vs France tomorrow.
I bet Slovenia will be trying to get revenge for that Olympics defeat and will go into this one all guns blazing.
I expect a nervous game full of arguments, trash talk ...basically a classic.

[Hugi Mancura]

Last but not least, group B has 3 teams that have punched in their ticket to the next round. Serbia, who is unbeaten and has locked in the 1st spot, Poland and Finland. These three teams have secured a spot to the next round, regardless of what happens tomorrow. The last spot will be determined by the Czech Republic-Israel game. The winner of this matchup advances to the next round, the loser is out. Israel has a chance of finishing 3rd if they win and they end up tying with Finland, since they beat them in the head-to-head, but for that to happen they absolutely need to beat the Czech Republic and they also need Poland to beat Serbia since they lose out in a possible triple tie with Poland and Finland. Poland will be 2nd if they beat Serbia but, of course, that's not an easy task unless Serbia decides to rest their main players. If Finland beats the Netherland and Poland loses to Serbia then Finland is 2nd and Poland is 3rd.

Disclaimer: I am not 100% sure if what I wrote above is accurate. This is simply my current understanding of the tie-breaker scenarios. I could always be wrong.

If Poland beats Serbia then Poland will win the group and Serbia is second. Both end up with 4-1 and because Poland was better in a game between them so they would be first.

Also I think if there is a three way tie, then it will be Finland, Israel and then Poland.

Also if Finland loses to Netherlands then I think win is not necessary enough for Czechs. I think they would have to win the game by 6 points or more to be fourth (Finland third) and if they somehow win by 19 points then they would pass Finland and be third (and Finland would be fourth).

All I know nobody doesn't want to be fourth, except maybe Czechs.

[Nuntius]

If Poland beats Serbia then Poland will win the group and Serbia is second. Both end up with 4-1 and because Poland was better in a game between them so they would be first.

Yes, you are right. That was an oversight on my part.

Also I think if there is a three way tie, then it will be Finland, Israel and then Poland.

It depends on whether the point differential that matters is the one that happened in the head-to-head games between the 3 teams or if it's their overall point differential throughout the group phase. If it's in the head-to-head games then, yes, it's exactly as you say it is. If it's their overall point differential then it will largely depend on the results of the final games. Currently, though, Finland is at +8, Poland is at 0 and Israel is at -11.

Also if Finland loses to Netherlands then I think win is not necessary enough for Czechs. I think they would have to win the game by 6 points or more to be fourth (Finland third) and if they somehow win by 19 points then they would pass Finland and be third (and Finland would be fourth).

A triple tie would once again depend on the kind of point differential that matters. If it's the head-to-head one then the Czech Republic should be fine regardless unless they beat Israel by less than 2. If it's the overall point differential then things are bad for them since they are currently at -30. The Czech Republic really wants Finland to beat the Netherlands. If Finland beats the Netherlands then the Czech Republic controls their fate. Win and advance, lose and go home. But in a triple tie, things are always complicated. Thankfully for them, they'll know what happens before they step on the court since the Finland-Netherlands game precedes the Israel-Czech Republic one.

[Archx]

Take Doncic as an example. Slovenia (nationality, but no professional playing time), Spain (professional) and Serbia (his father is half Serbian) all wanted him on their team. Let the guy choose (and the teams the one player) and that's it.
It elevates the game in the end, and makes it more competitive. It gives players a chance to prove themselves on the world stage that they otherwise would not have (with their home country's team).

I agree with letting the player choose. I never said anything to the contrary of that.

Why would anyone need to let him chose for which country he would want to play? That doesn't make any sense.

[Nuntius]

Take Doncic as an example. Slovenia (nationality, but no professional playing time), Spain (professional) and Serbia (his father is half Serbian) all wanted him on their team. Let the guy choose (and the teams the one player) and that's it.
It elevates the game in the end, and makes it more competitive. It gives players a chance to prove themselves on the world stage that they otherwise would not have (with their home country's team).

I agree with letting the player choose. I never said anything to the contrary of that.

Why would anyone need to let him chose for which country he would want to play? That doesn't make any sense.

What do you mean?

[Archx]

I agree with letting the player choose. I never said anything to the contrary of that.

Why would anyone need to let him chose for which country he would want to play? That doesn't make any sense.

What do you mean?

He said they would need to let Doncic chose for which country he wants to play and you agreed. And it doesn't make sense to me because he doesn't have multiple nationalities or passports.

[DanEu]

Why would anyone need to let him chose for which country he would want to play? That doesn't make any sense.

What do you mean?

He said they would need to let Doncic chose for which country he wants to play and you agreed. And it doesn't make sense to me because he doesn't have multiple nationalities or passports.

If Doncic wanted to play for Spain he'd get spanish passport in 30 minutes.

[zzzyyxyyxzzz]

Take Doncic as an example. Slovenia (nationality, but no professional playing time), Spain (professional) and Serbia (his father is half Serbian) all wanted him on their team. Let the guy choose (and the teams the one player) and that's it.
It elevates the game in the end, and makes it more competitive. It gives players a chance to prove themselves on the world stage that they otherwise would not have (with their home country's team).

I agree with letting the player choose. I never said anything to the contrary of that.

Why would anyone need to let him chose for which country he would want to play? That doesn't make any sense.

I originally wasn't so much responding to Nuntius but chiming in with my thoughts on the subject.

Doncic was just an example, my thought of "let the guy choose" was in reference to naturalized players in general. Take Tobey (I doubt his friendship with Prepelic would satisfy most people's criteria of connection with Slovenia)... Let the guy choose (become Slovenian and play for Slovenia).

[Nuntius]

Why would anyone need to let him chose for which country he would want to play? That doesn't make any sense.

What do you mean?

He said they would need to let Doncic chose for which country he wants to play and you agreed. And it doesn't make sense to me because he doesn't have multiple nationalities or passports.

He doesn't have multiple nationalities but he could have. He was born in Slovenia to a Slovenian mother and a father that was Slovenian of Serb descent. He has been living and playing in Spain ever since he was 13. Theoretically, Luka could have applied to and gotten all 3 nationalities. That's what Vezenkov did, for example. Vezenkov was born in Cyprus to Bulgarian parents and he was raised in Cyprus and Greece. He was eligible for all 3 nationalities and he got all 3 of them. He then decided to represent Bulgaria.

As long as the eligibility is possible, the decision should fall to the player, in my opinion.

[Archx]

What do you mean?

He said they would need to let Doncic chose for which country he wants to play and you agreed. And it doesn't make sense to me because he doesn't have multiple nationalities or passports.

He doesn't have multiple nationalities but he could have. He was born in Slovenia to a Slovenian mother and a father that was Slovenian of Serb descent. He has been living and playing in Spain ever since he was 13. Theoretically, Luka could have applied to and gotten all 3 nationalities. That's what Vezenkov did, for example. Vezenkov was born in Cyprus to Bulgarian parents and he was raised in Cyprus and Greece. He was eligible for all 3 nationalities and he got all 3 of them. He then decided to represent Bulgaria.

As long as the eligibility is possible, the decision should fall to the player, in my opinion.

Yeah that is true. But Luka said he can't wait to play for Slovenian team since he was very young. And years back when his dad was asked by the media for which country his son will play, he laughed and said "He is Slovenian, makes no sense for him to play for another country".

That's why i was confused why he should be allowed to chose which country he would want to play for. But i understand what you meant.

Doncic was just an example, my thought of "let the guy choose" was in reference to naturalized players in general. Take Tobey (I doubt his friendship with Prepelic would satisfy most people's criteria of connection with Slovenia)... Let the guy choose (become Slovenian and play for Slovenia).

You also need to keep in mind that most foreign or American players decide to take one of the "EU passports" because it's easier for them to get a job in EU clubs etc... So most of the time it's just a business decision.

[K_chile22]

If Silas doesn't start him and playing him 30+ mins when he's not in foul trouble, I expect you Rocket fans do the world some justice and run that **** out of town.

He has NO excuse this year. NONE. Play. That. Man!!!!!

He's pretty much already said Sengun and Jabari are the starting frontcourt. They wanted to move Wood ASAP to give Sengun the job

Huge Sengun believer obviously. Also was a Garuba believer, but I cant believe this is the same guy, Garuba looks like bustiest bust ever, I am not seeing him getting a second contract, guy is just not it.
Sengun however was obviously a hit, I like what Presti is doing, but he was complete moron for trading that pick. You build a young team with assets, and you trade a 18 year old center who dominated good men league already. Sengun is no Luka, but he is as close as it gets when it comes to proven Euro teenager. When this kid stops fouling and improves his jumpshot, its gonna be over.

I was really high on Garuba but yeah... Seems like he tried to put on weight to be a center and lost all his pop. Also have a hard time seeing him do anything on offense besides pass out of short rolls

[Peregrine01]

I continue to marvel at how easily Jokic scores. It seems like he can pull an 8/10 shooting half on call. His touch around the rim might be the best ever.

Kinda crazy how he’s recognized for being a GOAT tier passer when he might also be a GOAT tier scorer.

[bravor]

I'm really looking forward to Slovenia vs France tomorrow.
I bet Slovenia will be trying to get revenge for that Olympics defeat and will go into this one all guns blazing.
I expect a nervous game full of arguments, trash talk ...basically a classic.

I expect a lot of flopping, but we are geting used, especially after the games against Bosnia

But yes, with Slovenia's win yesterday, it will be a real game.

Mostly curious to see how we will defend Dragic, most likely we will let Doncic do his stuff (on the perimeter at least). The main for us should be to limit the rest of the players (Tobey included on the pnp, we'll see if we learnt something).

[DutchManDanFan]

There are different rules per country to get your nationality. In the US you are a citizen if you are born on US soil. Here, if one of your parents is Dutch, you can get a Dutch passport, no matter where you were born. So if one of your grandparents are/were Dutch, your mother or father can be Dutch, so you can as well. So you can have different nationalities. But nobody will choose to play for Holland unless they’re not good enough to play for any other team...

[mateos]

There are 22 f... seconds lost in a 2OT game between Turkey and Georgia.

And FIBA says it is ok.

Just ridiculous.

[Nuntius]

He said they would need to let Doncic chose for which country he wants to play and you agreed. And it doesn't make sense to me because he doesn't have multiple nationalities or passports.

He doesn't have multiple nationalities but he could have. He was born in Slovenia to a Slovenian mother and a father that was Slovenian of Serb descent. He has been living and playing in Spain ever since he was 13. Theoretically, Luka could have applied to and gotten all 3 nationalities. That's what Vezenkov did, for example. Vezenkov was born in Cyprus to Bulgarian parents and he was raised in Cyprus and Greece. He was eligible for all 3 nationalities and he got all 3 of them. He then decided to represent Bulgaria.

As long as the eligibility is possible, the decision should fall to the player, in my opinion.

Yeah that is true. But Luka said he can't wait to play for Slovenian team since he was very young. And years back when his dad was asked by the media for which country his son will play, he laughed and said "He is Slovenian, makes no sense for him to play for another country".

That's why i was confused why he should be allowed to chose which country he would want to play for. But i understand what you meant.

Doncic was just an example, my thought of "let the guy choose" was in reference to naturalized players in general. Take Tobey (I doubt his friendship with Prepelic would satisfy most people's criteria of connection with Slovenia)... Let the guy choose (become Slovenian and play for Slovenia).

You also need to keep in mind that most foreign or American players decide to take one of the "EU passports" because it's easier for them to get a job in EU clubs etc... So most of the time it's just a business decision.

Oh, I fully agree. I don't think that it was ever much of a question with Luka, in particular.

[LuDux1]

How about.. naturalized player can't play official games for his new NT 1 year (plus minus) after naturalization?

Maybe International Basketball Citizenship: after 4 (plus minus) seasons in country X player can play for that X NT

First would restrict instant citizenships ("Tobey Rule"), second would help countries that can't just hire someone because their constitution is strict ("Lithuanian Rule")