How do 80s play out if LA/Bos don't get Magic/Bird?

[70sFan]

The idea that Kareem wouldn't have won any title after 1971 without Magic is quite questionable. Without Magic, Lakers would have got Sidney Moncrief in 1979 draft and that alone would have made them title contenders in 1980-85 period.

[penbeast0]

I think the OP said the Lakers and Celtics didn't have or busted on those picks. Moncrief is a long way from a bust; the idea came from thinking about how very strong the teams were around Bird and Magic and whether they could still win without those generational talents.

[coastalmarker99]

Another interesting question to ponder is how would the 1960s play out without Russell and Wilt.

Now that would make for a very interesting hypothetical scenario.

[penbeast0]

Bellamy dominates. Well, the center numbers anyway; probably still not the win column. West and Oscar are the greatest stars of the 60s; the league moves away from post dominated offenses toward a more guard focused modern game helped by a similar trend in the forward dominated ABA.

Then you can have Kareem missing from the 70s and 80s, Jordan from the 90s, and LeBron from this century. No more GOATS!

[homecourtloss]

They're (possibly) a slightly better Bullets

80s Bullets, that's pretty insulting (says the Bullets fan).

Parish >> Mahorn
McHale > Ruland
Wedman < Greg Ballard
DJ >> Sobers
Henderson/Ainge = F. Johnson (to give Frank Johnson the benefit of the doubt)

And those were the best Bullets teams! With Ruland getting injured, Mahorn leaving, etc., the Bullets weren't over .500 again that decade except for one 42 win season in 87 (Old Moses, Charles Jones, Terry Catledge, Jeff Malone, Enis Whatley). Parish, McHale, DJ are 3 HOF players if not generational talents like Bird and should make the Celtics at least contenders.

I do agree with coastalmarker that Magic's ability to integrate Kareem back into a team rather than just an individually brilliant player was one of the keys to the dynasty but in the 3 years pre-Magic, they still won 53, 45, and 47 games with Kareem/Wilkes/Nixon and then added Michael Cooper to give them the perimeter defender they had been missing. They should be at least at the Phoenix level for the decade of the 80s until Kareem ages out.

The celtics in 89 are a interesting window into how capable they were as a supporting cast going 42-40 with only 6 games of bird. That was not even the best version of that supporting cast (ageing parish) and had a big bird shaped hole in their pay-roll but still held up

This is true. Lewis improved greatly that year, but also Ainge only played 45 games and Parish was aging. If Ainge were healthy, they might even be a 45-46 win type team that season with a top 10 offense. Old Parish was still a positive impact player; his RAPM sample for 1991 shows him to be an impact player even at 37.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

The idea that Kareem wouldn't have won any title after 1971 without Magic is quite questionable. Without Magic, Lakers would have got Sidney Moncrief in 1979 draft and that alone would have made them title contenders in 1980-85 period.

Would Worthy be so good without Magic?
You don't trade Norm Nixon ffor Byron Scott without Magic.

I our hypothetical situation do Wilkes an Norm retire when they did. Norm got injured on the Clippers but he was young enough to play more years had he not gotten injured. I am not realy clear what happened to Wilkes. It would be good to get a few more years out of McAdoo but I think injuries might have got him. Maybe if Spencer Haywood did not stik because of drugs. Prime Spencer Haywood would have been nice playing with Kareem.

My 1984 Celtics clobbered the Lakers on the offendive boards. I think (not positive) the 1981 and 1986 Rockets and 1983 76ers, 1989 Pistons, also beat the Lakers with rebounding despite Magic being a great rebounding guard.

Worthy was too soft to be my power forward but the talent of Wilkes must be used or traded to have the Lakers at championship level.
Trade Wilkes or Worthy and draft picks for Karl Malone and John Stockton before they fully prove themselves. Sign Moses Malone in free agency.If you trade Worthy you don't want Wilkes going bad so soon.

Lakers are some good luck away from a championship.

[prolific passer]

Celtics probably draft Theus in 78.
Lakers draft Moncrief in 79.
Celtics probably still trade for Parish and McHale.
Lakers have Kareem, Wilkes, Moncrief, and Nixon.
Celtics go into 80-81 with a starting 5 of Parish, McHale, Maxwell, Theus, and Tiny.
If they are able to make it to the finals we get a Theus vs Moncrief matchup. No Bird vs Magic but still solid.

[SkyHookFTW]

You don't think Kareem, Nixon, Wilkes, Cooper, and Chones/Rambis can get it done against Philly before Kareem ages into just a very good player from a great one? They even add Worthy for a couple of those years (though they probably don't trade Nixon for Scott without Magic on the team).

What about Parish, McHale, Maxwell, DJ, Henderson/Ainge? In 86 Maxwell is gone but they have Scott Wedman on the bench then sign 6th man Bill Walton. Any titles for the Celtics?

Moses, Dr. J., Mo Cheeks, Bobby Jones, Andrew Toney become the best starting five in the league. I know people who consider that version of the 76ers a top-3 team all-time. Kareem had his worst games against Moses. I'm a big Kareem fan but Moses just physically abused him in the paint. Cheeks is 5x-all defense, and IMO Bobby Jones is the best all-around defender in NBA history. I think the 76ers have a legit shot at 5-6 rings in the decade. Why? Because if the team looks that good, they never make the Moses trade for Ruland, AND they add Barkely to the mix in 84. Yikes!

[G35]

The 80's become Erving's. He likely wins 3 or 4 titles. But it opens up a number of what if's:

- Do the Sixers still trade for Moses Malone

- Do the Celtics still trade for Dennis Johnson.

- Do the Lakers still draft James Worthy or do they go with Dominique Wilkins

- The West becomes wide open with the Supersonics, Suns, Spurs, Nuggets as contenders in the early-mid 80's

- a lot of HoF players may end up in different places e.g. Hakeem, Barkley, Karl etc

[prolific passer]

We get a mavs/pistons finals in 88.