Euroleague's Top 15 Peaks

[euroleague]

I'm not voting on the general thread, but definitely see some major differences from my own list. I would rank the top 15 a bit less on "current popularity" and more on a consistent methodology and value system, roughly as follows:

Euroleague Ranking (RealGM Ranking) Year Player

1 (5) 1961-62 Wilt Chamberlain
2 (3) 1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal
3 (7) 1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon
4 (17) 1976-77 Bill Walton
5 (1) 1990-91 Michael Jordan
6 (8) 1964-65 Bill Russell
7 (9) 1985-86 Larry Bird
8 (10) 1986-87 Magic Johnson
9 (22) 1975-76 Julius Erving
10 (2) 2011-12 LeBron James
11 (11) 2015-16 Stephen Curry
12 (12) 2003-04 Kevin Garnett
13 (4) 1976-77 Kareem Abdul Jabbar
14 (6) 2002-03 Tim Duncan
15 (13) 2020-21 Giannis Antetokounmpo
15 (25) 1981-82 Moses Malone

Methodology and Specific Examples:

People in the modern age underestimate how ridiculously game-changing interior defense was before the popularization of the 3 point line, even into the early 00s when the offensive rules hadn't changed yet to block hand-checking and call more blocking fouls. Also, in the case of Wilt/Russell/Moses, their rebounding gave their teams 10-20 extra possessions per game.

I value Ceiling Raisers more than floor raisers, or LBJ and Westbrook would both be much higher. Bill Russell and Bill Walton gets a huge lift from that value system, Walton more so because of his offensive ability. I do value floor raising, but not nearly as much - or LBJ and Westbrook would be much higher.

I value being the best player on GOAT level teams, like MJ/Curry/Shaq/Wilt/Moses. I also value "Cinderella Runs" where one player carried a huge load to a ring - like Hakeem/Shaq did. Shaq gets a boost from doing both of these (in 01 and 00). Many people may ask "What about Duncan 03? And Nowitzki 11?" I disagree that those players played as huge of a role on those teams as is popularly held. For Nowitzki 11 - key role players like Jason Terry, Shawn Marion, Tyson Chandler, Kidd, etc. were huge. For Duncan's run in 03, dominant defensive players like Bowen/Stephen Jackson/David Robinson on the team get under-rated by the stats.

If anyone wants to debate a ranking about someone who hasn't been argued to death already (So not LBJ, Duncan, or Michael Jordan), happy to hear contrary opinions.

[1993Playoffs]

Can you explain your reasoning behind KG being ahead of Kareem? And why you have him so low in general

[homecourtloss]

I'm not voting on the general thread, but definitely see some major differences from my own list. I would rank the top 15 a bit less on "current popularity" and more on a consistent methodology and value system, roughly as follows:

Euroleague Ranking (RealGM Ranking) Year Player

1 (5) 1961-62 Wilt Chamberlain
2 (3) 1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal
3 (7) 1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon
4 (17) 1976-77 Bill Walton
5 (1) 1990-91 Michael Jordan
6 (8) 1964-65 Bill Russell
7 (9) 1985-86 Larry Bird
8 (10) 1986-87 Magic Johnson
9 (22) 1975-76 Julius Erving
10 (2) 2011-12 LeBron James
11 (11) 2015-16 Stephen Curry
12 (12) 2003-04 Kevin Garnett
13 (4) 1976-77 Kareem Abdul Jabbar
14 (6) 2002-03 Tim Duncan
15 (13) 2020-21 Giannis Antetokounmpo
15 (25) 1981-82 Moses Malone

Methodology and Specific Examples:

People in the modern age underestimate how ridiculously game-changing interior defense was before the popularization of the 3 point line, even into the early 00s when the offensive rules hadn't changed yet to block hand-checking and call more blocking fouls. Also, in the case of Wilt/Russell/Moses, their rebounding gave their teams 10-20 extra possessions per game.

I value Ceiling Raisers more than floor raisers, or LBJ and Westbrook would both be much higher. Bill Russell and Bill Walton gets a huge lift from that value system, Walton more so because of his offensive ability. I do value floor raising, but not nearly as much - or LBJ and Westbrook would be much higher.

I value being the best player on GOAT level teams, like MJ/Curry/Shaq/Wilt/Moses. I also value "Cinderella Runs" where one player carried a huge load to a ring - like Hakeem/Shaq did. Shaq gets a boost from doing both of these (in 01 and 00). Many people may ask "What about Duncan 03? And Nowitzki 11?" I disagree that those players played as huge of a role on those teams as is popularly held. For Nowitzki 11 - key role players like Jason Terry, Shawn Marion, Tyson Chandler, Kidd, etc. were huge. For Duncan's run in 03, dominant defensive players like Bowen/Stephen Jackson/David Robinson on the team get under-rated by the stats.

If anyone wants to debate a ranking about someone who hasn't been argued to death already (So not LBJ, Duncan, or Michael Jordan), happy to hear contrary opinions.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen 1962 Wilt picked over 1967 or 1964 Wilt. I often see 1968 Wilt picked over 1962. What makes 1962 Wilt the GOAT peak? We know that he nearly played every single minute of that season so we know what his on court rating basically was which we can’t say for many players from this era and that on court rating isn’t that impressive. Obviously his 1967 team was much more talented, so you’d expect more wins/bigger margins of wins, but don’t you think Wilt choosing to play different brought about the best version of Wilt?

[falcolombardi]

Saying that your ranking leans on players who led all time great teams and then putting hakeem 3rd and bill walton 4th doesnt make all that much sense

Specially when it has kareem at 13th

If the op likes dominant bigs the most it would make more sense to just argue that

[euroleague]

Can you explain your reasoning behind KG being ahead of Kareem? And why you have him so low in general

Kareem is a player who excelled with a great PG, but had very limited success without great teammates. His scoring struggled early in his career against the best defenders, then his defense fell off later in his career. Kareem's Lakers team in 77 was bad, and he raised it to a decent level - but it was never a contender. Got swept by Portland, barely barely beat the Warriors in the first round.

KG, on the other hand, turned his 04 team with less talent into a contender. They took the Lakers to 6 games in the WCF.

Their starting lineup in the last two games (which they went 1-1 in)?

Darrick Martin
Tranton Hassell
Latrell Sprewell
KG
Michael Olowokandi

6th Man: Wally Szerbiack

They won game 5 with that lineup. Against Gary Payton, Kobe, Karl Malone, and Shaq....

[euroleague]

Saying that your ranking leans on players who led all time great teams and then putting hakeem 3rd doesnt make all that much sense

If the op likes bigs the most it would make more sense to just argue that

I said All-Time Great teams AND Cinderella Story carry jobs... Hakeem in 94 was arguably the biggest title carry in NBA history. Same with Dr J in 76, for ABA though.

[falcolombardi]

Saying that your ranking leans on players who led all time great teams and then putting hakeem 3rd doesnt make all that much sense

If the op likes bigs the most it would make more sense to just argue that

I said All-Time Great teams AND Cinderella Story carry jobs... Hakeem in 94 was arguably the biggest title carry in history. Along with Dr J in 76.

And kareem doesnt fit all time great teams or duncan carry job teams more than most ahead?

If you got 94 hakeem that high you should have 03 duncan higher than you do since they are comparable runs

If you got 62 wilt first it doesnt make much sense to not have 09 lebron higher than 10th or 74 kareem as low as 13th

Your ranking is kind of all over the place just based on the cinderella run/dominant team criteria

It would make more sense if you dropped that part and just said this is your top 15

since the list really doesnt follow that cinderella/goated team criteria

[falcolombardi]

Can you explain your reasoning behind KG being ahead of Kareem? And why you have him so low in general

[b]Kareem is a player who excelled with a great PG, but had very limited success without great teammates. His scoring struggled early in his career against the best defenders, then his defense fell off later in his career. Kareem's Lakers team in 77 was bad, and he raised it to a decent level - but it was never a contender. Got swept by Portland, barely barely beat the Warriors in the first round.

KG, on the other hand, turned his 04 team with less talent into a contender. They took the Lakers to 6 games in the WCF.

Their starting lineup in the last two games (which they went 1-1 in)?

Darrick Martin
Tranton Hassell
Latrell Sprewell
KG
Michael Olowokandi

6th Man: Wally Szerbiack

They won game 5 with that lineup. Against Gary Payton, Kobe, Karl Malone, and Shaq....

As opposed to shaq who you have 2nd?

[No-more-rings]

I think this is wildly inconsistent but appreciate the effort nonetheless.

[No-more-rings]

Saying that your ranking leans on players who led all time great teams and then putting hakeem 3rd doesnt make all that much sense

If the op likes bigs the most it would make more sense to just argue that

I said All-Time Great teams AND Cinderella Story carry jobs... Hakeem in 94 was arguably the biggest title carry in NBA history. Same with Dr J in 76, for ABA though.

You said you’re lower on floor raising though? That’s exactly what Hakeem did and he’s 3rd…

[euroleague]

I'm not voting on the general thread, but definitely see some major differences from my own list. I would rank the top 15 a bit less on "current popularity" and more on a consistent methodology and value system, roughly as follows:

Euroleague Ranking (RealGM Ranking) Year Player

1 (5) 1961-62 Wilt Chamberlain
2 (3) 1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal
3 (7) 1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon
4 (17) 1976-77 Bill Walton
5 (1) 1990-91 Michael Jordan
6 (8) 1964-65 Bill Russell
7 (9) 1985-86 Larry Bird
8 (10) 1986-87 Magic Johnson
9 (22) 1975-76 Julius Erving
10 (2) 2011-12 LeBron James
11 (11) 2015-16 Stephen Curry
12 (12) 2003-04 Kevin Garnett
13 (4) 1976-77 Kareem Abdul Jabbar
14 (6) 2002-03 Tim Duncan
15 (13) 2020-21 Giannis Antetokounmpo
15 (25) 1981-82 Moses Malone

Methodology and Specific Examples:

People in the modern age underestimate how ridiculously game-changing interior defense was before the popularization of the 3 point line, even into the early 00s when the offensive rules hadn't changed yet to block hand-checking and call more blocking fouls. Also, in the case of Wilt/Russell/Moses, their rebounding gave their teams 10-20 extra possessions per game.

I value Ceiling Raisers more than floor raisers, or LBJ and Westbrook would both be much higher. Bill Russell and Bill Walton gets a huge lift from that value system, Walton more so because of his offensive ability. I do value floor raising, but not nearly as much - or LBJ and Westbrook would be much higher.

I value being the best player on GOAT level teams, like MJ/Curry/Shaq/Wilt/Moses. I also value "Cinderella Runs" where one player carried a huge load to a ring - like Hakeem/Shaq did. Shaq gets a boost from doing both of these (in 01 and 00). Many people may ask "What about Duncan 03? And Nowitzki 11?" I disagree that those players played as huge of a role on those teams as is popularly held. For Nowitzki 11 - key role players like Jason Terry, Shawn Marion, Tyson Chandler, Kidd, etc. were huge. For Duncan's run in 03, dominant defensive players like Bowen/Stephen Jackson/David Robinson on the team get under-rated by the stats.

If anyone wants to debate a ranking about someone who hasn't been argued to death already (So not LBJ, Duncan, or Michael Jordan), happy to hear contrary opinions.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen 1962 Wilt picked over 1967 or 1964 Wilt. I often see 1968 Wilt picked over 1962. What makes 1962 Wilt the GOAT peak? We know that he nearly played every single minute of that season so we know what his on court rating basically was which we can’t say for many players from this era and that on court rating isn’t that impressive. Obviously his 1967 team was much more talented, so you’d expect more wins/bigger margins of wins, but don’t you think Wilt choosing to play different brought about the best version of Wilt?

That 67 team was just way more talented than any past team Wilt had played with - having Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker, Hal Greer, etc.

Whereas in 62, Wilt almost single-handedly took the Celtics to the brink of elimination. If Paul Arizin did just slightly better than 33% FG on high volume FGA, the Warriors could've won.

Wilt basically re-wrote the recordbook that year. He was doing things the league had never seen before and will almost certainly never see again. He averaged 50/26 while have the best efficiency in the league.

The only reason he isn't leading TS% in 62 is because of the way FT are calculated into it (you had 3 attempts to make 2 shots, or 2 attempts to make 1 shot, until 1982). With these FT rules taken into account, Wilt's 60% FT shooting would actually net him the full points from FT most of the time, making his efficiency utterly absurd.

There's many reasons I favor 62 over 64. The 64 Warriors get much more love from fans because they made the Finals - but, they lost much harder to the Celtics. Warriors were the second best team in the league in 62 as well, they were just in the wrong conference, and against way too much talent.

In 67, which was his second best year, he was absurdly efficient and his team played better - but, I think a lot of that was coaching and superior talent. When Wilt left the Warriors, the Warriors were terrible. When he left the 76ers, they were still good.

[falcolombardi]

Saying that your ranking leans on players who led all time great teams and then putting hakeem 3rd doesnt make all that much sense

If the op likes bigs the most it would make more sense to just argue that

I said All-Time Great teams AND Cinderella Story carry jobs... Hakeem in 94 was arguably the biggest title carry in NBA history. Same with Dr J in 76, for ABA though.

You said you’re lower on floor raising though? That’s exactly what Hakeem did and he’s 3rd…

Also kareem at 13th because he only won with star guards but shaq who only won with star guards is 2nd

[euroleague]

I said All-Time Great teams AND Cinderella Story carry jobs... Hakeem in 94 was arguably the biggest title carry in NBA history. Same with Dr J in 76, for ABA though.

You said you’re lower on floor raising though? That’s exactly what Hakeem did and he’s 3rd…

Also kareem at 13th because he only won with star guards but shaq who only won with star guards is 2nd

Shaq in 00 didn’t have much of a star guard with him. Kobe was still more hype than substance, at that point… and they still won 67 games.

Kareem is a very hard one to rank. I could see an argument for him anywhere from 3rd to 20th. He is the hardest player to place. The issue for me is - his peak was around 10 years long, and most of those years his team didn’t do much.

[euroleague]

Saying that your ranking leans on players who led all time great teams and then putting hakeem 3rd doesnt make all that much sense

If the op likes bigs the most it would make more sense to just argue that

I said All-Time Great teams AND Cinderella Story carry jobs... Hakeem in 94 was arguably the biggest title carry in NBA history. Same with Dr J in 76, for ABA though.

You said you’re lower on floor raising though? That’s exactly what Hakeem did and he’s 3rd…

I’m lower on raising a very weak floor to a good team. But, if you can raise a weak team to a championship team, it’s a different story… a Cinderella Story - as the floor has basically reached the ceiling.

[falcolombardi]

I said All-Time Great teams AND Cinderella Story carry jobs... Hakeem in 94 was arguably the biggest title carry in NBA history. Same with Dr J in 76, for ABA though.

You said you’re lower on floor raising though? That’s exactly what Hakeem did and he’s 3rd…

I’m lower on raising a very weak floor to a good team. But, if you can raise a weak team to a championship team, it’s a different story… a Cinderella Story - as the floor has basically reached the ceiling.

Why duncan at only 13th then? Why 62 wilt at the top?

[euroleague]

You said you’re lower on floor raising though? That’s exactly what Hakeem did and he’s 3rd…

I’m lower on raising a very weak floor to a good team. But, if you can raise a weak team to a championship team, it’s a different story… a Cinderella Story - as the floor has basically reached the ceiling.

Why duncan at only 13th then? Why 62 wilt at the top?

As I specified..

1. I disagree that those players played as huge of a role on those teams as is popularly held.... For Duncan's run in 03, dominant defensive players like Bowen/Stephen Jackson/David Robinson (even young Manu) on the team get under-rated by the stats.

2. If anyone wants to debate a ranking about someone who hasn't been argued to death already (So not LBJ, Duncan, or Michael Jordan), happy to hear contrary opinions.

[Jaivl]

For what I've seen, 2012 Kirilenko is probably the best Euroleague pe... wait a minute...

[capfan33]

Saying that your ranking leans on players who led all time great teams and then putting hakeem 3rd doesnt make all that much sense

If the op likes bigs the most it would make more sense to just argue that

I said All-Time Great teams AND Cinderella Story carry jobs... Hakeem in 94 was arguably the biggest title carry in history. Along with Dr J in 76.

And kareem doesnt fit all time great teams or duncan carry job teams more than most ahead?

If you got 94 hakeem that high you should have 03 duncan higher than you do since they are comparable runs

If you got 62 wilt first it doesnt make much sense to not have 09 lebron higher than 10th or 74 kareem as low as 13th

Your ranking is kind of all over the place just based on the cinderella run/dominant team criteria

It would make more sense if you dropped that part and just said this is your top 15

since the list really doesnt follow that cinderella/goated team criteria

I may be off-base on this, but if you think about it, his criteria essentially means that he can pick and choose which peaks he views higher based on what label he ascribes to them. He likes ceiling raisers (pretty straight-forward) but also likes..."cinderella story carry jobs", and I honestly fail to see how this is meaningfully different from floor-raising.

Like yea, the caveat is that the carry jobs lead to titles, but then puts 62 Wilt 1st and 03 Duncan 14th (below Kareem as well which makes 0 sense). I'm not trying to flame, but this definitely seems like a classic case of someone feeling a certain way viscerally and then ex-facto trying to justify it. In a roundabout way he's saying he likes ceiling raisers and floor raisers, which means he doesn't actually have real criteria lol. I agree that his list would be better without the criteria.

[capfan33]

I'm not voting on the general thread, but definitely see some major differences from my own list. I would rank the top 15 a bit less on "current popularity" and more on a consistent methodology and value system, roughly as follows:

Euroleague Ranking (RealGM Ranking) Year Player

1 (5) 1961-62 Wilt Chamberlain
2 (3) 1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal
3 (7) 1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon
4 (17) 1976-77 Bill Walton
5 (1) 1990-91 Michael Jordan
6 (8) 1964-65 Bill Russell
7 (9) 1985-86 Larry Bird
8 (10) 1986-87 Magic Johnson
9 (22) 1975-76 Julius Erving
10 (2) 2011-12 LeBron James
11 (11) 2015-16 Stephen Curry
12 (12) 2003-04 Kevin Garnett
13 (4) 1976-77 Kareem Abdul Jabbar
14 (6) 2002-03 Tim Duncan
15 (13) 2020-21 Giannis Antetokounmpo
15 (25) 1981-82 Moses Malone

Methodology and Specific Examples:

People in the modern age underestimate how ridiculously game-changing interior defense was before the popularization of the 3 point line, even into the early 00s when the offensive rules hadn't changed yet to block hand-checking and call more blocking fouls. Also, in the case of Wilt/Russell/Moses, their rebounding gave their teams 10-20 extra possessions per game.

I value Ceiling Raisers more than floor raisers, or LBJ and Westbrook would both be much higher. Bill Russell and Bill Walton gets a huge lift from that value system, Walton more so because of his offensive ability. I do value floor raising, but not nearly as much - or LBJ and Westbrook would be much higher.

I value being the best player on GOAT level teams, like MJ/Curry/Shaq/Wilt/Moses. I also value "Cinderella Runs" where one player carried a huge load to a ring - like Hakeem/Shaq did. Shaq gets a boost from doing both of these (in 01 and 00). Many people may ask "What about Duncan 03? And Nowitzki 11?" I disagree that those players played as huge of a role on those teams as is popularly held. For Nowitzki 11 - key role players like Jason Terry, Shawn Marion, Tyson Chandler, Kidd, etc. were huge. For Duncan's run in 03, dominant defensive players like Bowen/Stephen Jackson/David Robinson on the team get under-rated by the stats.

If anyone wants to debate a ranking about someone who hasn't been argued to death already (So not LBJ, Duncan, or Michael Jordan), happy to hear contrary opinions.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen 1962 Wilt picked over 1967 or 1964 Wilt. I often see 1968 Wilt picked over 1962. What makes 1962 Wilt the GOAT peak? We know that he nearly played every single minute of that season so we know what his on court rating basically was which we can’t say for many players from this era and that on court rating isn’t that impressive. Obviously his 1967 team was much more talented, so you’d expect more wins/bigger margins of wins, but don’t you think Wilt choosing to play different brought about the best version of Wilt?

That 67 team was just way more talented than any past team Wilt had played with - having Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker, Hal Greer, etc.

Whereas in 62, Wilt almost single-handedly took the Celtics to the brink of elimination. If Paul Arizin did just slightly better than 33% FG on high volume FGA, the Warriors could've won.

Wilt basically re-wrote the recordbook that year. He was doing things the league had never seen before and will almost certainly never see again. He averaged 50/26 while have the best efficiency in the league.

The only reason he isn't leading TS% in 62 is because of the way FT are calculated into it (you had 3 attempts to make 2 shots, or 2 attempts to make 1 shot, until 1982). With these FT rules taken into account, Wilt's 60% FT shooting would actually net him the full points from FT most of the time, making his efficiency utterly absurd.

There's many reasons I favor 62 over 64. The 64 Warriors get much more love from fans because they made the Finals - but, they lost much harder to the Celtics. Warriors were the second best team in the league in 62 as well, they were just in the wrong conference, and against way too much talent.

In 67, which was his second best year, he was absurdly efficient and his team played better - but, I think a lot of that was coaching and superior talent. When Wilt left the Warriors, the Warriors were terrible. When he left the 76ers, they were still good.

This is an interesting point to bring up because it sounds impressive on paper, Wilt single-handedly taking the all-mighty Celtics to 7 games.

But in reality, the Celtics heavily underperformed in the postseason most years and routinely got taken to 6 and 7 games by vastly inferior teams. Just a few quick examples, in 1960 they got taken to 6 games by Wilts 2.77 SRS Warriors and then got taken to 7 by....the 1.77 SRS Hawks lol. The series after Wilt's they got taken to 7 by the 1.8 SRS Lakers who were even worse than Wilt's 2.63 SRS Warriors. And this pattern repeats itself for the rest of the decade.

If you want to give some brownie points to Wilt that's fair, but honestly, if that's the crux of your argument that Wilt's 62 season was not only his best season but the GOAT peak, given all that's been written about Wilt's lack of offensive impact in his volume scoring years, I'm not convinced at all.

[Stan]

Walton over Jordan, LeBron 10th, & Kareem 13th are just indefensibly bad. You're entitled to your opinion, but it's a very bad one.