People who don't have Jordan as GOAT: What metric(s) would make you change your mind?

[capfan33]

More longevity and more defensive data are the 2 big ones. Maybe some better arguments against Lebron's ability as a player.

[Stalwart]

Jordan had obvious impact on defense. He's one of two players to have 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season. How is that not impact? That's 2 to 3 extra possessions a game. Thats 2-4pts prevented a game. Thats a potential 10-12pt swing every game by Jordan singlehandedly. That's on top of good to great team defense. That's on top of having the ability to lockdown the best players on the opposing team when need be.

Again, how is this not impactful?

[Texas Chuck]

I think this statement:

mike's all-D teams are mostly narrative.

... is quite different than this one:

He was a good defender. A great one considering his huge offensive load. But he wasn't really a DPOY level defender at any point or really anything close to that.

I disagree that Jordan didn't deserve his all-D selections. There were probably some questionable ones, but Jordan was legit great defender. He just wasn't impactful enough to compete against top tier bigs, but for his position he was great.

I disagree. I think there were clearly superior guard defenders those years. The reality is the best perimeter defenders rarely have the offensive load Mike did. He wasn't defending better than Mookie and Harp and Coop and Squid etc...

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[70sFan]

Jordan had obvious impact on defense. He's one of two players to have 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season. How is that not impact? That's 2 to 3 extra possessions a game. Thats 2-4pts prevented a game. Thats a potential 10-12pt swing every game by Jordan singlehandedly. That's on top of good to great team defense. That's on top of having the ability to lockdown the best players on the opposing team when need be.

Again, how is this not impactful?

Depending on how he got these steals, it could actually be a negative thing. Not saying that's the case in Jordan's case, but high steal numbers could be a negative thing (and was for a lot of players actually).

[70sFan]

I think this statement:

mike's all-D teams are mostly narrative.

... is quite different than this one:

He was a good defender. A great one considering his huge offensive load. But he wasn't really a DPOY level defender at any point or really anything close to that.

I disagree that Jordan didn't deserve his all-D selections. There were probably some questionable ones, but Jordan was legit great defender. He just wasn't impactful enough to compete against top tier bigs, but for his position he was great.

I disagree. I think there were clearly superior guard defenders those years. The reality is the best perimeter defenders rarely have the offensive load Mike did. He wasn't defending better than Mookie and Harp and Coop and Squid etc...

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Squid and Coop were relevant only at the beginning of Jordan's career though. I don't know, I think Jordan certainly deserved some of his selections. Probably not all, as he had seasons when his motor wasn't up there, but he was legit great in some years.

[oaktownwarriors87]

- Skip college so he can put up meaningless stats on a mediocre team
- Play less games per season
- Score fewer points
- Team up with other superstars
- Never retire
- Win less championships
- Coast in the regular season
- Play in a conference with little to no competition
- Fail to make the playoffs with multiple MVP caliber teammates

Screw always winning and dominate your opponents and beating everyone. That doesn't make you great. Basketball is more than scoring, defense and winning.

[homecourtloss]

First, he already has an argument for GOAT, but for me, defensive data and impact data from 1987-1993 would make me change my mind if they were outlier good since his longevity is already an argument against him.

We have impact data from 1996-1998; this data show his obvious impact but aren’t anything outlandish. We have partial RAPM data now from 1991 and 1988 and that data aren’t “clear GOAT outlier like” either, and aren’t clear cut more impressive than James’s best seasons’ data. Additionally, the partial RAPM data do seem to corroborate the idea that his defensive impact isn’t commensurate with the defensive reputation (e.g., we see a negative DRAPM in 1988).

[Statlanta]

It would probably require better post-35 year old seasons.

[70sFan]

- Skip college so he can put up meaningless stats on a mediocre team
- Play less games per season
- Score fewer points
- Team up with other superstars
- Never retire
- Win less championships
- Coast in the regular season
- Play in a conference with little to no competition
- Fail to make the playoffs with multiple MVP caliber teammates

Screw always winning and dominate your opponents and beating everyone. That doesn't make you great. Basketball is more than scoring, defense and winning.

Are you aware that there are people who don't have LeBron and Jordan at the GOAT spot?

[oaktownwarriors87]

- Skip college so he can put up meaningless stats on a mediocre team
- Play less games per season
- Score fewer points
- Team up with other superstars
- Never retire
- Win less championships
- Coast in the regular season
- Play in a conference with little to no competition
- Fail to make the playoffs with multiple MVP caliber teammates

Screw always winning and dominate your opponents and beating everyone. That doesn't make you great. Basketball is more than scoring, defense and winning.

Are you aware that there are people who don't have LeBron and Jordan at the GOAT spot?

Yeah, and I think they have respectable arguments over Jordan. That's why I'm only mocking the LeBron take.

[70sFan]

- Skip college so he can put up meaningless stats on a mediocre team
- Play less games per season
- Score fewer points
- Team up with other superstars
- Never retire
- Win less championships
- Coast in the regular season
- Play in a conference with little to no competition
- Fail to make the playoffs with multiple MVP caliber teammates

Screw always winning and dominate your opponents and beating everyone. That doesn't make you great. Basketball is more than scoring, defense and winning.

Are you aware that there are people who don't have LeBron and Jordan at the GOAT spot?

Yeah, and I think they have respectable arguments over Jordan. That's why I'm only mocking the LeBron take.

So you think LeBron has no respectable arguments over Jordan?

[oaktownwarriors87]

Are you aware that there are people who don't have LeBron and Jordan at the GOAT spot?

Yeah, and I think they have respectable arguments over Jordan. That's why I'm only mocking the LeBron take.

So you think LeBron has no respectable arguments over Jordan?

Correct, I do not think he has a respectable argument over Jordan

[70sFan]

Yeah, and I think they have respectable arguments over Jordan. That's why I'm only mocking the LeBron take.

So you think LeBron has no respectable arguments over Jordan?

Correct, I do not think he has a respectable argument over Jordan

At the end, these are all only opinions but don't you think that you sells James short here?

[prolific passer]

Both are great players but the disrespect on both sides towards both has gotten out of control which makes the GOAT argument between both kind of meh.

[oaktownwarriors87]

So you think LeBron has no respectable arguments over Jordan?

Correct, I do not think he has a respectable argument over Jordan

At the end, these are all only opinions but don't you think that you sells James short here?

I still consider him a top 10 player.

Statistically throughout their career they have a lot of similarities. Jordan won more against tougher competition, and he did it while being #1 guy in the league on the #1 team.

Jordan dominated advanced metrics in 5 of his 6 Championships
LeBron dominated advanced metrics in 2 of his 4 Championships

Jordan had the #1 rated team in 5 of his 6 Championships
LeBron had the #1 rated team in 0 of his 4 Championships

Jordan is 14-7 (66.66%) against teams with an SRS of 5.0+
LeBron is 4-9 (30.77%) against teams with an SR of 5.0+

Jordans Championship teams rank #2, #5, #9, #20, #63, & #127 All-Time in SRS
LeBrons Championship teams rank #74, #119, #153, & #174 All-Time in SRS

LeBron's career is crazy impressive, it's just very clear that Jordan and his teams were better and more dominant. Jordan tops him in both volume and quality.

I don't value LeBron putting up big numbers on mediocre teams in the NBA over Jordan winning a national championship in college. I don't really value LeBron putting up big numbers on mediocre teams after 35, either. Sure, it's impressive, but playing more games and staying in the league doesn't make him better, because he's not better. He's worse, and he's hanging around longer. If he was putting up extra years where he was actually dominant and winning I could value it, but he isn't.

LeBron has been missing a bunch of games, losing, and he's at the bottom of the league in movement/speed on both the offensive and defensive end. That's not really longevity, it's more just stat padding.

Their statistical similarities make them easy to compare, and Jordan comes out on top.

[OhayoKD]

For those that have Russell as GOAT, there is no changing their mind.

I mean I'm a sample size of one, but I was a Russell is GOAT guy for a decade and I no longer am. The new evidence Lebron kept bringing changed my mind.

This idea that Russell believers alone are stubborn flies in the face of all common sense and is ironic as hell itt.

was the new evidence lebron's longetvity?

don't think the comment was a knock on russell fans, more that if you have russell as the goat, you probably don't care about time-machine arguments, and if you don't care about time-machine arguments, then jordan doesn't really have a case vs bill

[OhayoKD]

First, he already has an argument for GOAT, but for me, defensive data and impact data from 1987-1993 would make me change my mind if they were outlier good since his longevity is already an argument against him.

We have impact data from 1996-1998; this data show his obvious impact but aren’t anything outlandish. We have partial RAPM data now from 1991 and 1988 and that data aren’t “clear GOAT outlier like” either, and aren’t clear cut more impressive than James’s best seasons’ data. Additionally, the partial RAPM data do seem to corroborate the idea that his defensive impact isn’t commensurate with the defensive reputation (e.g., we see a negative DRAPM in 1988).

You're sugar-coating. The data suggests "jordan isn't goat". You can choose not to put stock in it, but there's no positive goat argument that can be derived from it.

[OhayoKD]

Yeah, and I think they have respectable arguments over Jordan. That's why I'm only mocking the LeBron take.

So you think LeBron has no respectable arguments over Jordan?

Correct, I do not think he has a respectable argument over Jordan

well there's demonstrably higher value to teams in a variety of contexts and longetvity, but besides a better peak and better longetvity...

[LukaTheGOAT]

Honestly, if we could somehow run a simulation where we see stars in different situations, combinations, ran over 1 million times, and Jordan ends up with the most titles would be interesting.

I guess I get the argument that MJ got tired out and wanted to take a break because the Bulls had been so dominant, but then that kind of is a point in say Bill Russell's hat, that he won 8 championships in a row and didn't take time off.

I think a simulation would need to prove MJ's scoring was so outlier that it could lift offenses better than anyone ever by a notable margin. The defense argument has already been brought up but as people have mentioned, it doesn't seem like MJ could lift defenses lime some of the DPOy bigs we talk about, so I doubt simulation would prove anything new.

[NbaAllDay]

Correct, I do not think he has a respectable argument over Jordan

At the end, these are all only opinions but don't you think that you sells James short here?

I still consider him a top 10 player.

Statistically throughout their career they have a lot of similarities. Jordan won more against tougher competition, and he did it while being #1 guy in the league on the #1 team.

Jordan dominated advanced metrics in 5 of his 6 Championships
LeBron dominated advanced metrics in 2 of his 4 Championships

Jordan had the #1 rated team in 5 of his 6 Championships
LeBron had the #1 rated team in 0 of his 4 Championships

Jordan is 14-7 (66.66%) against teams with an SRS of 5.0+
LeBron is 4-9 (30.77%) against teams with an SR of 5.0+

Jordans Championship teams rank #2, #5, #9, #20, #63, & #127 All-Time in SRS
LeBrons Championship teams rank #74, #119, #153, & #174 All-Time in SRS

LeBron's career is crazy impressive, it's just very clear that Jordan and his teams were better and more dominant. Jordan tops him in both volume and quality.

I don't value LeBron putting up big numbers on mediocre teams in the NBA over Jordan winning a national championship in college. I don't really value LeBron putting up big numbers on mediocre teams after 35, either. Sure, it's impressive, but playing more games and staying in the league doesn't make him better, because he's not better. He's worse, and he's hanging around longer. If he was putting up extra years where he was actually dominant and winning I could value it, but he isn't.

LeBron has been missing a bunch of games, losing, and he's at the bottom of the league in movement/speed on both the offensive and defensive end. That's not really longevity, it's more just stat padding.

Their statistical similarities make them easy to compare, and Jordan comes out on top.

This take is fine but you are going to have to do a lot better than provide evidence as to why "Jordan's trams were better than Lebrons" thus us generally true but ironically should value how well Lebron did with what he had compared to the League.

Lebron having lower ranked teams yet still winning it all, while showing comparable and sometimes outlier performances is not a positive to his case?