2023 East Standings - Predictions

[Manocad]

What's the in-between? It's not like the only possibilities are 20-25 wins (which I don't think is going to happen) or running up on 40 wins and the playoffs. What about 34 wins and the 9th draft pick, also a possibility?

I think people try to read too much into what the team's goal is for this season, as if every action is either trying to win every individual game at all costs (push for the playoffs) or losing every individual game at all costs (tanking). If two seasons of Weaver being in charge have showed anything thus far it's that he clearly has a plan of building a team geared for sustainable long term success. And that means building through the draft and taking chances on young players who may blossom here (read: basically nearly an entire team in the same age range), which he's done. What that does not mean is retooling on the fly/overpaying for the hot free agent du jour in order to rush to the playoffs, which he hasn't done and has explicitly said he's not going to do. So in all seriousness my prediction is that this season is going to play out with no specific goal other than to continue to improve the team--give the young guys minutes to develop, rest them if they're frustrated/struggling and need a break, and whatever happens, happens. I personally think they're too good to wind up with another shot at a top four draft pick and not good enough to make any noise in the playoffs if they managed to sneak in, so there's no point in either of those being a goal IMO.

So 30-35 wins, no playoffs, and somewhere around the 9th draft pick. Which I'm fine with; it's part of the process.

That's pretty much what I said. I said it's a win win season whether they're competing for a play in or finishing in the lottery again.
I don't think Weaver cares as much about wins and losses as he does about the process, incremental improvements with a team that is showing internal growth. If it leads to more wins, great, and if it leads to a bunch of close losses as the young guys continue to grow and learn the hard lessons, that's fine too. I think the only unacceptable outcome would be a team that's stagnating not only in the win/loss column but also in terms of individual development.

Either way, Weaver has a clear plan. One more development year then I think next offseason he will make bigger moves to supplement the core with an eye towards the playoffs the season after.

Got it. I guess my brain took "win-win" as meaning that there was a "lose" scenario possible.

Personally I'd consider finishing bottom 4 again kind of a losing scenario in the big picture since it would mean the team hasn't grown/improved a bit; I don't think it's in any way realistic that an intentional tank, i.e. keep the good players on the bench for a large part of the season in order to lose games, is going to happen. I'd rather see the team improving--and hopefully quickly--at the expense of draft position. Cap space and assets make trading up on draft day possible (as we've seen); 8-10 guys all improving and winning games/beating good teams is a lot more important in the grand scheme.

Unless the team is intentionally throwing games, finishing bottom 4 year after year after year means the team isn't going anywhere. Like I've said before, players don't have a "Get Better" switch. It's not like you can expect a bunch of high draft pick/promising young players to suck, suck again, and suck yet again in order to keep getting more high draft picks, then you just flip on everyone's "Get Better" switch and make a deep playoff run. It doesn't work that way.

[whitehops]

Personally I'd consider finishing bottom 4 again kind of a losing scenario in the big picture since it would mean the team hasn't grown/improved a bit; I don't think it's in any way realistic that an intentional tank, i.e. keep the good players on the bench for a large part of the season in order to lose games, is going to happen. I'd rather see the team improving--and hopefully quickly--at the expense of draft position. Cap space and assets make trading up on draft day possible (as we've seen); 8-10 guys all improving and winning games/beating good teams is a lot more important in the grand scheme.

Unless the team is intentionally throwing games, finishing bottom 4 year after year after year means the team isn't going anywhere. Like I've said before, players don't have a "Get Better" switch. It's not like you can expect a bunch of high draft pick/promising young players to suck, suck again, and suck yet again in order to keep getting more high draft picks, then you just flip on everyone's "Get Better" switch and make a deep playoff run. It doesn't work that way.

it's entirely possible that our young guys improve individually but the team as a whole doesn't. saddiq bey improved last season but struggled with the increased responsibility on offense. with grant gone he's going to have even more responsibility, and while he could improve individually he could also struggle relative to his increased role. isaiah stewart seems to be switching positions so there will be growing pains there. we will likely be starting jaden ivey and historically rookie guards struggle mightily. as a team we still lack shooting and we will likely be a below average defense again.

we might not finish bottom 4 but imo there is a pretty clear bottom tier with 7 teams in it: jazz, spurs, thunder, rockets, magic, pistons and pacers. all of those teams have some combination of a lack of experience and a lack of talent. i think we'll be on better end of those 7 teams but if something happens like cade getting injured for a period of time i think we're likely to finish bottom 4 - even if players like bey, stewart, hayes, etc. improve individually.

most people here wanted to be patient with the rebuild and this is the reality. improving by ~10 wins every season isn't.

[Manocad]

Personally I'd consider finishing bottom 4 again kind of a losing scenario in the big picture since it would mean the team hasn't grown/improved a bit; I don't think it's in any way realistic that an intentional tank, i.e. keep the good players on the bench for a large part of the season in order to lose games, is going to happen. I'd rather see the team improving--and hopefully quickly--at the expense of draft position. Cap space and assets make trading up on draft day possible (as we've seen); 8-10 guys all improving and winning games/beating good teams is a lot more important in the grand scheme.

Unless the team is intentionally throwing games, finishing bottom 4 year after year after year means the team isn't going anywhere. Like I've said before, players don't have a "Get Better" switch. It's not like you can expect a bunch of high draft pick/promising young players to suck, suck again, and suck yet again in order to keep getting more high draft picks, then you just flip on everyone's "Get Better" switch and make a deep playoff run. It doesn't work that way.

it's entirely possible that our young guys improve individually but the team as a whole doesn't. saddiq bey improved last season but struggled with the increased responsibility on offense. with grant gone he's going to have even more responsibility, and while he could improve individually he could also struggle relative to his increased role. isaiah stewart seems to be switching positions so there will be growing pains there. we will likely be starting jaden ivey and historically rookie guards struggle mightily. as a team we still lack shooting and we will likely be a below average defense again.

we might not finish bottom 4 but imo there is a pretty clear bottom tier with 7 teams in it: jazz, spurs, thunder, rockets, magic, pistons and pacers. all of those teams have some combination of a lack of experience and a lack of talent. i think we'll be on better end of those 7 teams but if something happens like cade getting injured for a period of time i think we're likely to finish bottom 4 - even if players like bey, stewart, hayes, etc. improve individually.

most people here wanted to be patient with the rebuild and this is the reality. improving by ~10 wins every season isn't.

You didn't give any examples of individual improvement from "our young guys" while the team simultaneously doesn't improve. That would require all the other key players getting individually worse to offset some players getting better. And again, that would represent a lack of TEAM improvement and what I'd still call a losing scenario. Put it this way--if all your players are individually getting better but the team is still losing a ton of games, at what point do they start winning games with the same players? Clearly that would mean they can't play together...which means the team is not only not improving, but likely isn't going to improve. And I'd call that a losing scenario (and not even realistic IMO).

The point of Stew changing positions is because it looks like it could be beneficial to both him and the team, not because they're trying to force a square peg into a round hole out of absolute necessity. So yeah, if Stew changes positions and struggles this season leading to team struggles as a result, I'd absolutely consider that a lack of team improvement this season which is the context I'm operating in. Cade being injured clearly does not represent individual or team improvement this season, and if Ivey struggles mightily (vs being serviceable or good, both of which are possible) that's not going to lead to team improvement. Bey continuing to struggle with an increased role also represents neither individual nor team improvement. I'm not saying those things can't happen but if all those things did happen then the team as a whole clearly did not improve. You basically supported my point as to why I'd call that a losing scenario because all those things happening this season sure as hell isn't worth a high draft pick to me.

And I'd argue that Saddiq did NOT improve in the grand scheme. He simply scored more, 16.1 PPG vs 12.3. which was .488 pts/minute played vs .447; basically he just had a bigger role/took more shots. His 2PT% stayed basically the same (.454 vs .450), his 3PT% went down (.346 vs .380), his TOV/minute played went up, and his rebounds/minute played went down. Saddiq improved one, literally ONE facet of his game--being able to go one on one and take someone to the hole. And even then that was going from "can barely manage it" to "serviceable."

I don't think a single person ever suggested that improving by 10+ wins every season should be expected.

[zeebneeb]

Personally I'd consider finishing bottom 4 again kind of a losing scenario in the big picture since it would mean the team hasn't grown/improved a bit; I don't think it's in any way realistic that an intentional tank, i.e. keep the good players on the bench for a large part of the season in order to lose games, is going to happen. I'd rather see the team improving--and hopefully quickly--at the expense of draft position. Cap space and assets make trading up on draft day possible (as we've seen); 8-10 guys all improving and winning games/beating good teams is a lot more important in the grand scheme.

Unless the team is intentionally throwing games, finishing bottom 4 year after year after year means the team isn't going anywhere. Like I've said before, players don't have a "Get Better" switch. It's not like you can expect a bunch of high draft pick/promising young players to suck, suck again, and suck yet again in order to keep getting more high draft picks, then you just flip on everyone's "Get Better" switch and make a deep playoff run. It doesn't work that way.

it's entirely possible that our young guys improve individually but the team as a whole doesn't. saddiq bey improved last season but struggled with the increased responsibility on offense. with grant gone he's going to have even more responsibility, and while he could improve individually he could also struggle relative to his increased role. isaiah stewart seems to be switching positions so there will be growing pains there. we will likely be starting jaden ivey and historically rookie guards struggle mightily. as a team we still lack shooting and we will likely be a below average defense again.

we might not finish bottom 4 but imo there is a pretty clear bottom tier with 7 teams in it: jazz, spurs, thunder, rockets, magic, pistons and pacers. all of those teams have some combination of a lack of experience and a lack of talent. i think we'll be on better end of those 7 teams but if something happens like cade getting injured for a period of time i think we're likely to finish bottom 4 - even if players like bey, stewart, hayes, etc. improve individually.

most people here wanted to be patient with the rebuild and this is the reality. improving by ~10 wins every season isn't.

Jazz, Spurs, and Thunder are their own kind of terrible. They have zero expectations.

I dont even want to put the Pistons on the same tier as the Pacers, or Magic, as both teams, while talented(Pacers less so)have huge gaping holes, or have no idea who is starting, or getting play time at all.

I firmly believe that because of Cade, the best player amongst all of those teams, it puts the Pistons a clear level ahead of the bottom teams, and if he has that superstar second season, then the Pistons are leapfrogging other teams as well.

The Pistons have real deal talent at every position now. Most of it is in diapers, but it's there. The team is also starting the season with lob threats for Cade, a real SG whether it is Ivey, or Burks. Has real legitimate shooting, and legit size, and rim protection. An honest to God, legitimate team.

Fans have rock bottom expectations this year, and while it's tough to blame them after over a decade of wandering in the desert, the talent is real. The lack of a roster filled with g-leaguers is real. The build-up of actual talent is real.

My expectations, while not lofty are real;

36-43 wins, and a tough as hell game, for whoever plays them. This season I also expect it to become obvious that the only thing this team needs, is experience, and time played together. If you had a gun to my head, I would pick 37 wins.

Anyone who expects wins in the 20's, expects problems such as, injuries, wierd trades, illness, or, a flat-out bust of Ivey, or other players.

I also expect that the last, real, bad player on the team, Saben Lee, to be gone before the season starts.

[bstein14]

Personally I'd consider finishing bottom 4 again kind of a losing scenario in the big picture since it would mean the team hasn't grown/improved a bit; I don't think it's in any way realistic that an intentional tank, i.e. keep the good players on the bench for a large part of the season in order to lose games, is going to happen. I'd rather see the team improving--and hopefully quickly--at the expense of draft position. Cap space and assets make trading up on draft day possible (as we've seen); 8-10 guys all improving and winning games/beating good teams is a lot more important in the grand scheme.

Unless the team is intentionally throwing games, finishing bottom 4 year after year after year means the team isn't going anywhere. Like I've said before, players don't have a "Get Better" switch. It's not like you can expect a bunch of high draft pick/promising young players to suck, suck again, and suck yet again in order to keep getting more high draft picks, then you just flip on everyone's "Get Better" switch and make a deep playoff run. It doesn't work that way.

it's entirely possible that our young guys improve individually but the team as a whole doesn't. saddiq bey improved last season but struggled with the increased responsibility on offense. with grant gone he's going to have even more responsibility, and while he could improve individually he could also struggle relative to his increased role. isaiah stewart seems to be switching positions so there will be growing pains there. we will likely be starting jaden ivey and historically rookie guards struggle mightily. as a team we still lack shooting and we will likely be a below average defense again.

we might not finish bottom 4 but imo there is a pretty clear bottom tier with 7 teams in it: jazz, spurs, thunder, rockets, magic, pistons and pacers. all of those teams have some combination of a lack of experience and a lack of talent. i think we'll be on better end of those 7 teams but if something happens like cade getting injured for a period of time i think we're likely to finish bottom 4 - even if players like bey, stewart, hayes, etc. improve individually.

most people here wanted to be patient with the rebuild and this is the reality. improving by ~10 wins every season isn't.

Jazz, Spurs, and Thunder are their own kind of terrible. They have zero expectations.

I dont even want to put the Pistons on the same tier as the Pacers, or Magic, as both teams, while talented(Pacers less so)have huge gaping holes, or have no idea who is starting, or getting play time at all.

I firmly believe that because of Cade, the best player amongst all of those teams, it puts the Pistons a clear level ahead of the bottom teams, and if he has that superstar second season, then the Pistons are leapfrogging other teams as well.

The Pistons have real deal talent at every position now. Most of it is in diapers, but it's there. The team is also starting the season with lob threats for Cade, a real SG whether it is Ivey, or Burks. Has real legitimate shooting, and legit size, and rim protection. An honest to God, legitimate team.

Fans have rock bottom expectations this year, and while it's tough to blame them after over a decade of wandering in the desert, the talent is real. The lack of a roster filled with g-leaguers is real. The build-up of actual talent is real.

My expectations, while not lofty are real;

36-43 wins, and a tough as hell game, for whoever plays them. This season I also expect it to become obvious that the only thing this team needs, is experience, and time played together. If you had a gun to my head, I would pick 37 wins.

Anyone who expects wins in the 20's, expects problems such as, injuries, wierd trades, illness, or, a flat-out bust of Ivey, or other players.

I also expect that the last, real, bad player on the team, Saben Lee, to be gone before the season starts.

You thought the Pistons werent a bottom tier team last season as well, and over estimated Cades impact as a rookie. If you look at most national media, pretty much everyone everywhere has us as a bottom 3 team in the East with Orlando and Indy.

Haliburton is likely on a similar level to Cade right now. I think Cade clearly will be the better player and has the moat upsise, but Haliburton also has great court vision and is a very efficient scorer.

SGA is for sure better than Cade right now, but hopefully not for much longer.

Having a 14th or 15th guy on the roster gone doesnt really mean anything unless its the week the team gets hit by Covid. If Hayes is in the rotation again this year, he is the clear non NBA rotation worthy player getting minutes. Hard to say where Duren will be at but he also might be a pretty net negative player early on before he really gets a feel for NBA schemes and he might be relying heavily on that elite athleticism to carry him a bit in his first few months like it did for a young Andre Drummond.

[zeebneeb]

it's entirely possible that our young guys improve individually but the team as a whole doesn't. saddiq bey improved last season but struggled with the increased responsibility on offense. with grant gone he's going to have even more responsibility, and while he could improve individually he could also struggle relative to his increased role. isaiah stewart seems to be switching positions so there will be growing pains there. we will likely be starting jaden ivey and historically rookie guards struggle mightily. as a team we still lack shooting and we will likely be a below average defense again.

we might not finish bottom 4 but imo there is a pretty clear bottom tier with 7 teams in it: jazz, spurs, thunder, rockets, magic, pistons and pacers. all of those teams have some combination of a lack of experience and a lack of talent. i think we'll be on better end of those 7 teams but if something happens like cade getting injured for a period of time i think we're likely to finish bottom 4 - even if players like bey, stewart, hayes, etc. improve individually.

most people here wanted to be patient with the rebuild and this is the reality. improving by ~10 wins every season isn't.

Jazz, Spurs, and Thunder are their own kind of terrible. They have zero expectations.

I dont even want to put the Pistons on the same tier as the Pacers, or Magic, as both teams, while talented(Pacers less so)have huge gaping holes, or have no idea who is starting, or getting play time at all.

I firmly believe that because of Cade, the best player amongst all of those teams, it puts the Pistons a clear level ahead of the bottom teams, and if he has that superstar second season, then the Pistons are leapfrogging other teams as well.

The Pistons have real deal talent at every position now. Most of it is in diapers, but it's there. The team is also starting the season with lob threats for Cade, a real SG whether it is Ivey, or Burks. Has real legitimate shooting, and legit size, and rim protection. An honest to God, legitimate team.

Fans have rock bottom expectations this year, and while it's tough to blame them after over a decade of wandering in the desert, the talent is real. The lack of a roster filled with g-leaguers is real. The build-up of actual talent is real.

My expectations, while not lofty are real;

36-43 wins, and a tough as hell game, for whoever plays them. This season I also expect it to become obvious that the only thing this team needs, is experience, and time played together. If you had a gun to my head, I would pick 37 wins.

Anyone who expects wins in the 20's, expects problems such as, injuries, wierd trades, illness, or, a flat-out bust of Ivey, or other players.

I also expect that the last, real, bad player on the team, Saben Lee, to be gone before the season starts.

You thought the Pistons werent a bottom tier team last season as well, and over estimated Cades impact as a rookie. If you look at most national media, pretty much everyone everywhere has us as a bottom 3 team in the East with Orlando and Indy.

Haliburton is likely on a similar level to Cade right now. I think Cade clearly will be the better player and has the moat upsise, but Haliburton also has great court vision and is a very efficient scorer.

SGA is for sure better than Cade right now, but hopefully not for much longer.

Having a 14th or 15th guy on the roster gone doesnt really mean anything unless its the week the team gets hit by Covid. If Hayes is in the rotation again this year, he is the clear non NBA rotation worthy player getting minutes. Hard to say where Duren will be at but he also might be a pretty net negative player early on before he really gets a feel for NBA schemes and he might be relying heavily on that elite athleticism to carry him a bit in his first few months like it did for a young Andre Drummond.

I have no problem having a discussion, hell even an argument, but don't be disingenuous.

Cade had an injury, missed all of training camp, preseason, and the first 4 games of the season, before being thrown to the wolves.

Context is very important.

After the all-star break, Cade and the team played exceptionally well, and as I stated before, extrapolated out, it would have been a 34 win season. It also helped immensely, having a vertical threat, which now the Pistons have 4 legitimate ones.(Duren, Noel, Bagley, Ivey)

I stand by my estimation of the team last season, and seeing as how the team is going to start with Ivey starting, Burks as a backup, and Bagley as well, with Stewart shooting threes, ill stand by my current estimation as well, all things being equal.

[breezypeezy]

I went back and checked the Vegas wins total thread.
I picked 35 wins, I'm still comfortable with that.

[FloridaMan78]

The loss of Jerami Grant will hurt us defensively. His loss on offense is questionable. Arguably the chemistry was better without him. Grant was a good floor spacer at PF though. It’s yet to be seen if Stewart can assume that role. Replacing Bagley/Stewart for Stewart/Grant defensively is undoubtedly worse.

IMO a 10 game improvement over last year would be amazing. That’s 33 wins. The East has gotten better and will be a Gauntlet this year. Most of the tanking teams will be in the West so not many gimmes.

My guess is a 5-7 game improvement over last year.

28-30 wins.


24.Pistons
25.Indiana
26.Orlando
27.Houston
28.OKC
29.Spurs
30.Utah

[Manocad]

I don't think a 10 win improvement over the 23 wins last year would be amazing in any way. Take away Cade's injury/the way he played early in the season (vs the way he played late in the season) plus the tank late in the season and that's probably 10 wins alone. Now take away Killian starting (bad) vs being on the bench (serviceable) and that's an improvement as well.

People have mentioned the other bottom tier teams playing better as well, so even if the Pistons get better they could still be trying and finish with 20-something wins. That's not how it works. The bottom tier teams don't only play each other; they play more games against the rest of the league than other bottom tier teams. So if hypothetically the bottom tier teams all improve at the same rate and the rest of the league stays at the same level on average (some teams got better, some teams got worse) then the bottom tier teams would hypothetically be winning more games against the rest of the league.

Therefore the idea that if all the bottom tier teams have improved at a similar rate then 30-33 wins or so still means being a bottom 4 team (and a great shot at the #1 pick) is completely valid however. Which quite frankly would be ideal for this team--individual and team growth, i.e. more development leading to wins, and still a pretty high draft pick.

[bstein14]

The loss of Jerami Grant will hurt us defensively. His loss on offense is questionable. Arguably the chemistry was better without him. Grant was a good floor spacer at PF though. It’s yet to be seen if Stewart can assume that role. Replacing Bagley/Stewart for Stewart/Grant defensively is undoubtedly worse.

IMO a 10 game improvement over last year would be amazing. That’s 33 wins. The East has gotten better and will be a Gauntlet this year. Most of the tanking teams will be in the West so not many gimmes.

My guess is a 5-7 game improvement over last year.

28-30 wins.


24.Pistons
25.Indiana
26.Orlando
27.Houston
28.OKC
29.Spurs
30.Utah

I predicted 30-32 wins, IF and only IF we don't tank down the stretch of the season. I think if we go out and try to win from early season until the end of the year 30-32 wins is possible. I also think your standings are about right. We'll likely finish about 24th in the league (give or take 1 spot in either direction).

Washington finished 12th in the East last year and ended up with 35 wins.
The Kings finished 24th in the NBA last season and finished with 30 wins, and also got lucky and landed the #4 pick. That's right about where I see us being with the young guys improving. I think think we're clearly entrenched in the bottom 3 or 4 in the east but I don't think we're the worst of the worst anymore.

[whitehops]

I don't think a 10 win improvement over the 23 wins last year would be amazing in any way. Take away Cade's injury/the way he played early in the season (vs the way he played late in the season) plus the tank late in the season and that's probably 10 wins alone. Now take away Killian starting (bad) vs being on the bench (serviceable) and that's an improvement as well.

People have mentioned the other bottom tier teams playing better as well, so even if the Pistons get better they could still be trying and finish with 20-something wins. That's not how it works. The bottom tier teams don't only play each other; they play more games against the rest of the league than other bottom tier teams. So if hypothetically the bottom tier teams all improve at the same rate and the rest of the league stays at the same level on average (some teams got better, some teams got worse) then the bottom tier teams would hypothetically be winning more games against the rest of the league.

Therefore the idea that if all the bottom tier teams have improved at a similar rate then 30-33 wins or so still means being a bottom 4 team (and a great shot at the #1 pick) is completely valid however. Which quite frankly would be ideal for this team--individual and team growth, i.e. more development leading to wins, and still a pretty high draft pick.

the team is currently on pace for 14/15 wins and would need to finish the season 27-38 (0.415) to even crack the 30-win threshold, which is only a 7-win improvement from last year.

looks like all the mental gymnastics it took to justify the team improving to over 30 wins despite getting younger, having an ill-fitting and overall talent-deficient roster and investing lots of playing time into duds didn't pay off. sorry bud.

i'm sure we'll do a little better when we're at full strength but winning 30+ wins is still a long shot, which is what some predicted from the get-go.

[bstein14]

I don't think a 10 win improvement over the 23 wins last year would be amazing in any way. Take away Cade's injury/the way he played early in the season (vs the way he played late in the season) plus the tank late in the season and that's probably 10 wins alone. Now take away Killian starting (bad) vs being on the bench (serviceable) and that's an improvement as well.

People have mentioned the other bottom tier teams playing better as well, so even if the Pistons get better they could still be trying and finish with 20-something wins. That's not how it works. The bottom tier teams don't only play each other; they play more games against the rest of the league than other bottom tier teams. So if hypothetically the bottom tier teams all improve at the same rate and the rest of the league stays at the same level on average (some teams got better, some teams got worse) then the bottom tier teams would hypothetically be winning more games against the rest of the league.

Therefore the idea that if all the bottom tier teams have improved at a similar rate then 30-33 wins or so still means being a bottom 4 team (and a great shot at the #1 pick) is completely valid however. Which quite frankly would be ideal for this team--individual and team growth, i.e. more development leading to wins, and still a pretty high draft pick.

the team is currently on pace for 14/15 wins and would need to finish the season 27-38 (0.415) to even crack the 30-win threshold, which is only a 7-win improvement from last year.

looks like all the mental gymnastics it took to justify the team improving to over 30 wins despite getting younger, having an ill-fitting and overall talent-deficient roster and investing lots of playing time into duds didn't pay off. sorry bud.

i'm sure we'll do a little better when we're at full strength but winning 30+ wins is still a long shot, which is what some predicted from the get-go.

And the guy who's been our best player in Bojan who we got for almost nothing wasn't even on the team yet. If not for Bojan we might have 1 win right now.

[mattao313]

I don't think a 10 win improvement over the 23 wins last year would be amazing in any way. Take away Cade's injury/the way he played early in the season (vs the way he played late in the season) plus the tank late in the season and that's probably 10 wins alone. Now take away Killian starting (bad) vs being on the bench (serviceable) and that's an improvement as well.

People have mentioned the other bottom tier teams playing better as well, so even if the Pistons get better they could still be trying and finish with 20-something wins. That's not how it works. The bottom tier teams don't only play each other; they play more games against the rest of the league than other bottom tier teams. So if hypothetically the bottom tier teams all improve at the same rate and the rest of the league stays at the same level on average (some teams got better, some teams got worse) then the bottom tier teams would hypothetically be winning more games against the rest of the league.

Therefore the idea that if all the bottom tier teams have improved at a similar rate then 30-33 wins or so still means being a bottom 4 team (and a great shot at the #1 pick) is completely valid however. Which quite frankly would be ideal for this team--individual and team growth, i.e. more development leading to wins, and still a pretty high draft pick.

the team is currently on pace for 14/15 wins and would need to finish the season 27-38 (0.415) to even crack the 30-win threshold, which is only a 7-win improvement from last year.

looks like all the mental gymnastics it took to justify the team improving to over 30 wins despite getting younger, having an ill-fitting and overall talent-deficient roster and investing lots of playing time into duds didn't pay off. sorry bud.

i'm sure we'll do a little better when we're at full strength but winning 30+ wins is still a long shot, which is what some predicted from the get-go.

We'll go on a run at the end of the season when most teams are mailing it in and we're still trying hard. Happens every season.

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

[Manocad]

I don't think a 10 win improvement over the 23 wins last year would be amazing in any way. Take away Cade's injury/the way he played early in the season (vs the way he played late in the season) plus the tank late in the season and that's probably 10 wins alone. Now take away Killian starting (bad) vs being on the bench (serviceable) and that's an improvement as well.

People have mentioned the other bottom tier teams playing better as well, so even if the Pistons get better they could still be trying and finish with 20-something wins. That's not how it works. The bottom tier teams don't only play each other; they play more games against the rest of the league than other bottom tier teams. So if hypothetically the bottom tier teams all improve at the same rate and the rest of the league stays at the same level on average (some teams got better, some teams got worse) then the bottom tier teams would hypothetically be winning more games against the rest of the league.

Therefore the idea that if all the bottom tier teams have improved at a similar rate then 30-33 wins or so still means being a bottom 4 team (and a great shot at the #1 pick) is completely valid however. Which quite frankly would be ideal for this team--individual and team growth, i.e. more development leading to wins, and still a pretty high draft pick.

the team is currently on pace for 14/15 wins and would need to finish the season 27-38 (0.415) to even crack the 30-win threshold, which is only a 7-win improvement from last year.

looks like all the mental gymnastics it took to justify the team improving to over 30 wins despite getting younger, having an ill-fitting and overall talent-deficient roster and investing lots of playing time into duds didn't pay off. sorry bud.

i'm sure we'll do a little better when we're at full strength but winning 30+ wins is still a long shot, which is what some predicted from the get-go.

i didn’t “justify” the team improving by 10 wins in any way or claim they would. I said I wouldn’t find it amazing if they did and gave reasons why. If it doesn’t turn out that way, so be it. I didn’t see anyone predicting 14-15 wins either so you can skip the sanctimony.

[bstein14]

I should have went with 16 or 17 wins and all-time bad Pistons team this year. The strong finish from Bey/Cade last season had me feeling like 30 wins was probably this year... Yes the Cade injury hurt, but we also didn't get the growth from Bey/Hayes/Stewart/Livers at all this season either really.... Bagley was on again off again and our best two players on the year were Bojan and Burks who were gifted to us for nothing. The backcourt of Hayes/Ivey was just super brutal for us. Ivey put up some ok raw numbers but impact on winning Hayes/Ivey by far the worst starting backcourt the league has seen in a while.

[edmunder_prc]

Wouldn't suprise me if the Magic and Pacers roster played well together. Magic have a ton of young talent and the Pacers still have a very solid team.

Pistons still dont know what the have in Ivey who will be the real difference maker. Plus Bey and Stewart need to play like they did at their best, but for a whole season.

I still have Pistons battling for among the worst teams.

Pacers and Magic doubled our win total and only a few games out of the play in.

Was right that expecting Bey and Stewart to play at their best game level, every game for the next season wasnt going to happen.

I still have the Pistons battling among the worst teams next season.

[zeebneeb]

Wouldn't suprise me if the Magic and Pacers roster played well together. Magic have a ton of young talent and the Pacers still have a very solid team.

Pistons still dont know what the have in Ivey who will be the real difference maker. Plus Bey and Stewart need to play like they did at their best, but for a whole season.

I still have Pistons battling for among the worst teams.

Pacers and Magic doubled our win total and only a few games out of the play in.

Was right that expecting Bey and Stewart to play at their best game level, every game for the next season wasnt going to happen.

I still have the Pistons battling among the worst teams next season.

If that's the case, then there is going to be a bunch of turnover inside the Pistons organization. Think about just how many bad things would have to happen for the Pistons to be amongst the worst again.

1.)Some kind of injury perhaps.

2.)Cade just sucks

3.)Ivey just sucks

4.)Rookie just sucks

5.)Duren just sucks

6.)Bojan all of a sudden sucks

7.)Casey somehow survives one of the worst 5 years stretches for coaches in league history.

8.)FREE agency strike out.

9.)Zero traded, or terrible trades.

I mean it could happen, but that means Casey is gone, Weaver is close to being fired, and the bottom has fallen out.

[joedumars1]

Wouldn't suprise me if the Magic and Pacers roster played well together. Magic have a ton of young talent and the Pacers still have a very solid team.

Pistons still dont know what the have in Ivey who will be the real difference maker. Plus Bey and Stewart need to play like they did at their best, but for a whole season.

I still have Pistons battling for among the worst teams.

Pacers and Magic doubled our win total and only a few games out of the play in.

Was right that expecting Bey and Stewart to play at their best game level, every game for the next season wasnt going to happen.

I still have the Pistons battling among the worst teams next season.

If that's the case, then there is going to be a bunch of turnover inside the Pistons organization. Think about just how many bad things would have to happen for the Pistons to be amongst the worst again.

1.)Some kind of injury perhaps.

2.)Cade just sucks: This is the biggest question. Does he come back old cade and progress or does he stay the same? Can he and Ivey mesh? Also while
Trying to integrate possibly another #1 overall pick. Cade is the key. Never seen wemb, not sure if cade and him mesh, cades game can mesh with anyone, Ivey idk.

3.)Ivey just sucks
It’s possible he just doesn’t end up meshing, might be moved.
4.)Rookie just sucks
Let’s hope they don’t
5.)Duren just sucks
I’m not sure what the shot they doing with duren. I figured he be starting center getting 30mpg but we will see, wiseman starting threw me off.
6.)Bojan all of a sudden sucks
Definitely should’ve moved him for a 1st while we probbaly had the shot

7.)Casey somehow survives one of the worst 5 years stretches for coaches in league history.
He will probably be gone after 20 games depending how they look
8.)FREE agency strike out. I hope we do kinda strike
Out no long term big money deals, not this year

9.)Zero traded, or terrible trades. Draft picks.

I mean it could happen, but that means Casey is gone, Weaver is close to being fired, and the bottom has fallen out.

I just want to see steps in the right direction. This year after cades injury it was complete ****, like no development, just ****, sad thing is even cade being healthy might’ve of not made much of a differnce, but we
Would’ve had a feel for if he and Ivey can play together.

[bstein14]

Wouldn't suprise me if the Magic and Pacers roster played well together. Magic have a ton of young talent and the Pacers still have a very solid team.

Pistons still dont know what the have in Ivey who will be the real difference maker. Plus Bey and Stewart need to play like they did at their best, but for a whole season.

I still have Pistons battling for among the worst teams.

Pacers and Magic doubled our win total and only a few games out of the play in.

Was right that expecting Bey and Stewart to play at their best game level, every game for the next season wasnt going to happen.

I still have the Pistons battling among the worst teams next season.

If that's the case, then there is going to be a bunch of turnover inside the Pistons organization. Think about just how many bad things would have to happen for the Pistons to be amongst the worst again.

1.)Some kind of injury perhaps.

2.)Cade just sucks

3.)Ivey just sucks

4.)Rookie just sucks

5.)Duren just sucks

6.)Bojan all of a sudden sucks

7.)Casey somehow survives one of the worst 5 years stretches for coaches in league history.

8.)FREE agency strike out.

9.)Zero traded, or terrible trades.

I mean it could happen, but that means Casey is gone, Weaver is close to being fired, and the bottom has fallen out.

We could double our win total next year (from 16 this year to 32 next year) and still be 5th worst in the league.... Right now it looks like 5th worst in the league will have about 32 wins.