People who don't have Jordan as GOAT: What metric(s) would make you change your mind?

[Texas Chuck]

I will always remember that legendary series where the Sonics held Dikembe Mutombo to 12 points on sub-50% efficiency.

Mutombo was underrated offensively. Probably have been at least a 15ppg scorer if given the opportunity. Had a nice jump shot and hook shot.

His point isn't to denigrate Deke. His point is Russell wasn't some great volume scorer so the relevance of these h2h numbers isn't what the Wilt fan wants to make it to be.

[Stalwart]

Russell vs. Wilt full H2H stats against each other year-By-year.

1959-1960 regular season in 11 H2H's

Russell: 19.8 ppg, 23.7 rpg 3.5 APG 39.3 FG%

Wilt: 39.1 ppg, 29.7 rpg,46.5 FG%, 1.3 apg.


1960 ECF in six postseason H2H's

Russell: 20.7 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 44.6 FG%, and 2.8 APG.

Wilt: 30.5 ppg, 27.5 rpg,.50.0 FG% and 2.0 APG



1960-1961 in 13 H2H matchups

Russell: 18.8 ppg, 25.4 rpg, 39.8 FG%, and 3.6 APG

Wilt: 35.5 ppg, 30.6 rpg, 49.2 FG%, and 1.8 apg.


1961-62 in 10 regular season H2H's:

Russell: 18.5 ppg, 24.6 rpg, 38.3 FG%, and 4.4 APG.

Wilt: 39.7 ppg, 28.8 rpg, 46.8 FG%, and 2.1 apg.


1962 ECF in seven postseason H2H's

Russell: 22.0 ppg, 25.9 rpg, .39.9. FG%, and 4.6 APG.

Wilt: 33.6 ppg, 26.9 rpg, .46.8 FG%, and 2.9 apg.


1962 -1963 in 9 regular season H2H's:

Russell: 15.3 ppg, 27.8 rpg, .38.14 FG%

Wilt: 38.1 ppg, 28.9 rpg, . 51.1 FG%


1963-1964 in 8 regular season H2H

Russell 14.3 ppg, 25.3 rpg , 5 APG 39.81 FG%

Wilt 29.1 ppg ,26.8 rpg, 3.6 APG 53.9 FG%


1964 finals in five postseason H2H's

Russell 11.2 ppg, 25.2 rpg, 5.0 APG 38.6 FG%

Wilt 29.2 ppg 27,6 rpg, 2.4 APG 51.7 FG%


1964 - 1965 in 11 regular season H2H

Russell 12.6 ppg, 22.2 rpg 4.6 APG, 28.1 FG%

Wilt 25.4 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 4.2 APG, 47.3 FG%



1965 ECF in seven postseason H2H's

Russell 15.6 ppg, 25.1 rpg, 6.7 APG,44.7 FG%.

Wilt 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, 3.3 APG 55.5 FG%.



1965 -1966 in 9 regular season H2H

Russell vs Wilt in 9 regular season H2H's:

Russell: 9.4 ppg, 21.2 rpg, 4.9 APG, .30.1 FG%

Wilt: 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, 4.1 APG 47.3 FG%



1966 ECF in five postseason H2H's

Russell: 14.0 ppg, 26.2 rpg, 5.6 APG, 42.4 FG%

Wilt: 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, 3.0 APG 50.9 FG%


1966 -1967 in 9 regular season H2H

Russell: 12.2 ppg, 21.1 rpg, 4.1 APG .44.7 FG%

Wilt: 20.3 ppg, 26.7 rpg, 6.3 APG, .54.9 FG%



1967 ECF in five postseason H2H's

Russell: 11.4 ppg, 23.4 rpg, 6.0 APG, 35.8 FG%

Wilt: 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, 10.0 apg, 55.6 FG%



1967-1968 in 8 regular season H2H

Russell: 7.8 ppg, 17.5 rpg, 5.1 APG 29.1 FG%

Wilt: 17.1 ppg, 26.1 rpg, 8.5 APG, .46.1 FG%



1968 ECF in seven postseason H2H's


Russell: 13.7 ppg, 23.9 rpg, 4.1 APG, 44.0 FG%.

Wilt: 22.1 ppg, 25.1 rpg, 6.7 APG, 48.7 FG%.



1968-69: in six regular-season H2H

Russell: 6.7 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 5.8 APG on 34.0 %FG

Wilt: 16.3 ppg, 24.0 rpg, 4.8 APG on 50.7 %FG


1969 finals in seven postseason H2H's

Russell: 9.1 ppg, 21.1 rpg, 5.1 apg on 39.7 %FG

Wilt: 11.7 ppg, 25.0 rpg, 3.0 apg on 50.0 %FG

Complete and utter domination

[Stalwart]

I will be very impressed if you find me one example of Ewing executing jump hook over right shoulder.

Thats what you choose to focus on?

Why not? You say that Ewing has certain skills in his package, but I actually break down low post volume scorers for years and I know that Ewing doesn't have a jump hook over right shoulder. I also know that his jump hook wasn't efficient and he mostly relied on fadeaways and agressive drives to the baseline. He had basic drop steps in his repertoire and of course he was skilled enough to fake undisciplined players from time to time, but it's not true that Ewing has a broad package of go-to moves and developed counters for them. That's why he often struggled against quality defenders during the playoffs, because he couldn't create easy shots from the post like Hakeem, Jabbar, Shaq or - yes - Wilt.

Again, that's even without talking about his passing. Almost half of the post game is related to passing and reading game, that's just wasn't Ewing's strength to say the least.

I love Ewing and I think he's massively underrated among most posters here, but he wasn't sophisticated post player.

I thoroughly disagree. I think Ewing was indeed a sophisticated post player. One of the best in NBA history. He also played in an era of the most sophisticated Centers in league history. Russell has never faced this kind of competition. The few sophisticated Centers he did face destroyed him, regularly.

[coastalmarker99]

I'm not sure what we are supposed to clean from Wilt scoring more points h2h. We already know Wilt was a much higher volume scorer than Russell.

What was Wilt's winning percentage in games and series? After all this isn't 1 on 1. And we all know Russell was all about the team and Wilt, well wasn't. Russell famously talked about letting Wilt "win" the 1 on 1 statistical battle knowing Wilt would be satisfied with that, meanwhile Russ's teams kept winning and that was what was actually important--something Russell knew and used against Wilt.

But points I guess....

I have said it many times before but Wilt was a total of nine points away from being 5-3 in his playoff H2H with Russell.

And it took players like Sam jones hitting game-winners in game sevens to prevent Wilt from pulling off massive upsets in series such as the 1962 ECF in which the Celtics were predicted to sweep the Warriors.

Watch on YouTube

Russell can talk all he wants about letting Wilt win the 1 on 1 statistical battle knowing Wilt would be satisfied with that.


But he and his teams were just narrowly escaping Wilt's despite having a massive talent and coaching advantage.


I also find it funny that Russell only started bringing that up in interviews once Wilt passed away.


In all of his interviews with Wilt besides him he is quiet as a church mouse.

Watch on YouTube

;t=285s

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[Texas Chuck]

But he and his teams were just narrowly escaping Wilt's despite having a massive talent and coaching advantage.

I mean we can all point to all kinds of playoff series that swung on very thin margins, no? But I think there is something to be said when Russell's teams over and over and over found a way to come out on top. At some point we need to stop attributing that to mere luck.

[coastalmarker99]

But he and his teams were just narrowly escaping Wilt's despite having a massive talent and coaching advantage.

I mean we can all point to all kinds of playoff series that swung on very thin margins, no? But I think there is something to be said when Russell's teams over and over and over found a way to come out on top. At some point we need to stop attributing that to mere luck.

Ask Jerry west yourself in person how much luck the Celtics got during that era.

Hot Rod Hundley missed a wide-open shot to win the title in 1962.

John's steal in 1965

The 76er injuries in 1968

Don's Nelson's shot in 1969.


In a hypothetical reality in which Wilt's teammates had made the clutch plays in all four of those game sevens losses.

That dumb argument about Russell letting Wilt get his numbers wouldn't exist.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I really try and stay out of the Jordan and Lebron pissing matches, but I think people are lying to themselves if they say "nothing" would really change their minds. Like, a huge part of Lebron's "GOAT" case is the plethora of lineup data we have for his entire career showing he basically had Top-5 all-time "impact". Hell, KG's entire case as a Top-15 guy is based on RAPM and overall impact data. You're telling me that if we had reliable lineup data for Jordan's peak years ('87-'93) that confirmed the eye test and showed he basically had something like peak KG/Curry level impact (+20 on/off), that it wouldn't have you revaluate (assuming he's not already your clear GOAT)? I'd argue at that point you're just letting your bias cloud any sort of objective analysis.

I don't know if this sheds any light on the topic, but https://youtu.be/RqGDLV-do9c

I think MJ's peak is well clear of KG/Curry as is and I think his on/off being at their level likely would just confirm what I already think of him.

[Texas Chuck]

But he and his teams were just narrowly escaping Wilt's despite having a massive talent and coaching advantage.

I mean we can all point to all kinds of playoff series that swung on very thin margins, no? But I think there is something to be said when Russell's teams over and over and over found a way to come out on top. At some point we need to stop attributing that to mere luck.

Ask Jerry west yourself in person how much luck the Celtics got during that era.

Hot Rod Hundley missed a wide-open shot to win the title in 1962.

John's steal in 1965

The 76er injuries in 1968

Don's Nelson's shot in 1969.

You are focused on those shots because they are at the end of the game. But all the possessions matter. The Celtics led by Russell were the superior team in those games and series in the end.

I know you love Wilt and want to find a way to make him better than Russ. But the thing is Wilt is legit great. This is one of the 7 or 8 best players of all-time. You don't have to go to all this trouble. Both Wilt and Russ can be great. Acknowledging Russ was greater despite all the box score stuffing of Wilt can be hard, but it can also be acknowledged.

[70sFan]

I watched 90 ewing footage against celtics recently

He was very predecible with his fade baseline jumper that he often went with without even prodding a bit for a pass or with some fakes

There are some kinda fun plays where celtics send a surprise double blitz at ewing blindside as soon as the entry pass is send to ewing in the post.

With any other non-jokic post players those would be killer and cause a lot of turnovers and panic passes/shots

Ewing tho. Is as predetermined to shot his fade no matter what when he catches the ball that he starts his move as soon as he touches the ball making thr blitz hilariously pointless as it doesnt affect ewing at all but doesnt get punished with a pass either

This is not a good thingh. Ewing didnt explore other options. He would start a possesion in "post up mode" usually a very repetitive one settling for his jumper and not exploring more with fakes or counters

Or his "passing mode" where he would telegraph he was looking for a cutter instead of simultanepusly threatening to shot, drive and pass (to his credit i think hr was surprisingly accurate passing to cutters in these instances)

The ben taylor wilt criticism of "couldnt score and pass simultaneously" rang much more true for me with ewing

Yeah, it's insane to call Ewing a sophisticated offensive player. He had a few go-to moves he perfected, but he had almost no variance in his game and he couldn't adjust on the fly. It doesn't mean he was bad offensive player, but he was anything but sophisticated.

In defense i didnt have too many criticisms except he sometimes was nlt well positioned to contest shots even against less vertical players in crowded paint situations. There is a clear play showing this when he bird is backing down a knicks player and said knicks playrr is blocking ewing from helping

If he was a bit quicker/smarter to position himself he could do a couple quick small steps around his teammate to get into position to block bird before he ended his backing down to shot.... instead he kinda just stood with his arms up pointlessly even though he is not even facing bird

This is where the subtlety of duncan or garnett or draymond seemingly always perfect positioning shines through in comparision

I think Ewing improved his positioning notably in the early 1990s under Pat Riley. He became extremely smart with his rotations and his body positioning, but his athleticism steady declined.

[70sFan]

Thats what you choose to focus on?

Why not? You say that Ewing has certain skills in his package, but I actually break down low post volume scorers for years and I know that Ewing doesn't have a jump hook over right shoulder. I also know that his jump hook wasn't efficient and he mostly relied on fadeaways and agressive drives to the baseline. He had basic drop steps in his repertoire and of course he was skilled enough to fake undisciplined players from time to time, but it's not true that Ewing has a broad package of go-to moves and developed counters for them. That's why he often struggled against quality defenders during the playoffs, because he couldn't create easy shots from the post like Hakeem, Jabbar, Shaq or - yes - Wilt.

Again, that's even without talking about his passing. Almost half of the post game is related to passing and reading game, that's just wasn't Ewing's strength to say the least.

I love Ewing and I think he's massively underrated among most posters here, but he wasn't sophisticated post player.

I thoroughly disagree. I think Ewing was indeed a sophisticated post player. One of the best in NBA history. He also played in an era of the most sophisticated Centers in league history. Russell has never faced this kind of competition. The few sophisticated Centers he did face destroyed him, regularly.

"I disagree, Ewing was sophisticated because he was sophisticated and played against sophisticated ones. Russell didn't played against sophisticated centers, he's not sophisticated enough"

What a bunch of nonsense. As always, you have no arguments and you show your lack of knowledge (with talking about Ewing's repertoire), but you always know the best.

[falcolombardi]

Why not? You say that Ewing has certain skills in his package, but I actually break down low post volume scorers for years and I know that Ewing doesn't have a jump hook over right shoulder. I also know that his jump hook wasn't efficient and he mostly relied on fadeaways and agressive drives to the baseline. He had basic drop steps in his repertoire and of course he was skilled enough to fake undisciplined players from time to time, but it's not true that Ewing has a broad package of go-to moves and developed counters for them. That's why he often struggled against quality defenders during the playoffs, because he couldn't create easy shots from the post like Hakeem, Jabbar, Shaq or - yes - Wilt.

Again, that's even without talking about his passing. Almost half of the post game is related to passing and reading game, that's just wasn't Ewing's strength to say the least.

I love Ewing and I think he's massively underrated among most posters here, but he wasn't sophisticated post player.

I thoroughly disagree. I think Ewing was indeed a sophisticated post player. One of the best in NBA history. He also played in an era of the most sophisticated Centers in league history. Russell has never faced this kind of competition. The few sophisticated Centers he did face destroyed him, regularly.

"I disagree, Ewing was sophisticated because he was sophisticated and played against sophisticated ones. Russell didn't played against sophisticated centers, he's not sophisticated enough"

What a bunch of nonsense. As always, you have no arguments and you show your lack of knowledge (with talking about Ewing's repertoire), but you always know the best.

I am also a bit confused with the "more sophisticated" claim. Like what does that even mean?

Better footwork? Better jumpshots? At the top end or in average?

Ewing had 1-2 great go to moves. That doesnt a "sophisticated" (seriously what does that word evem mean here?) Player make.

His scoring skillset was not as complete/diverse as wilt (if that is what we are going for with the term "sophisticated).

And in the 90's while there were centers with very complete repertoires like hakeem. Most of the all star bigs had more basic skill sets (shaq, robinson, barkley) they supplemented with their athletic gifts

In the 80's we had Mchale , in the 70's we had kareem, in the 00's we got duncan, garnett or dirk. In the 10's we got embiid and jokic

I dont see how the 90's are some big outlier here tbh

[Joao Saraiva]

Trying to reply...

According to my criteria longevity matters. So he'd need more longevity, since I think he and LeBron are a wash peak/prime wise. Jordan has LeBron in consistency, and that's a big thing since I consider LeBron's consistency to be very high. But there is no black mark like 11 for MJ.

While that was a big thing for a while for me to put Jordan over... it simply comes to a point where I can't accept that anymore. LeBron was consistent and played almost always at a great level since 06. So even the slight slumps don't matter that much, because he's added a ton more value trough longevity.

Anyway, it's still very acceptable to have MJ as the GOAT. As it is to have LeBron, Wilt, Russell... it just comes with the criteria you use.

Against Russell.... I have MJ ahead. The way I see it you have to take era into account - and I'm not saying Bill Russell's era was weak or something. I'm just saying the game evolved in a way that only one player (even a C) couldn't have the same impact today as Russell did in his time. It's impossible he would translate to the same impact, even tough I believe he'd still be very good.

I can see, however, Jordan or Bron being as impactful in every era.

It's a no end discussion, and even if LeBron wins 6 somehow and wins 6 FMVPs the argument for Jordan, KAJ, Wilt and Russell is still alive.

[tsherkin]

Im not sure what you guys have against Ewing lol. He was a great post player in addition to being able to face up. He can hit the turn around jumper over either shoulder from anywhere in and around the paint. Jump hooks over either shoulder. He had mini dream shakes in his repitoire. Up and unders. Running hooks. Leaners. Fadaways. He could go over top. He can go outside, inside. And most importantly he can chain these things together fluidly.

That's a defensive response.

Ewing wasn't known in his own time for his diverse array in the post. He was a stiff, mechanical offensive player who did his best offensive work leveraging his first step against slower big men and wielding his jumper. He was pretty good at that in the RS. He had like 2 good postseason runs as a primary scorer because his offensive game was not particularly special. This isn't news.

There's a reason he looked like stank ass against Olajuwon, and it wasn't just strong individual defense. He struggled in general when he didn't physically overwhelm his opponent because his skill set was neither advanced nor diverse.

[falcolombardi]

Im not sure what you guys have against Ewing lol. He was a great post player in addition to being able to face up. He can hit the turn around jumper over either shoulder from anywhere in and around the paint. Jump hooks over either shoulder. He had mini dream shakes in his repitoire. Up and unders. Running hooks. Leaners. Fadaways. He could go over top. He can go outside, inside. And most importantly he can chain these things together fluidly.

That's a defensive response.

Ewing wasn't known in his own time for his diverse array in the post. He was a stiff, mechanical offensive player who did his best offensive work leveraging his first step against slower big men and wielding his jumper. He was pretty good at that in the RS. He had like 2 good postseason runs as a primary scorer because his offensive game was not particularly special. This isn't news.

There's a reason he looked like stank ass against Olajuwon, and it wasn't just strong individual defense. He struggled in general when he didn't physically overwhelm his opponent because his skill set was neither advanced nor diverse.

He also seemingly started every possesiom having decided whether he was gonna shot a fade or look for a cutter before even touching the ball and regardless of what the defense did

Often teams did throw surprise doubles at his blindside that would be pointless cause ewing started his shot as soon as he got the ball. Meaning the double didnt matter ar all (cannot get stripped nor punish the double that way)

He had a solid fade from tje baseline but settled too much for it imo.

I actually thought he was good at hittinh cutters in tight windows (the technical part of passing) so i would have loved if knicks used him more in set plays as a thriple threat from the high post. Or used in pick and pop more like karl malone was

[tsherkin]

He also seemingly started every possesiom having decided whether he was gonna shot a fade or look for a cutter before even touching the ball and regardless of what the defense did

His stiff, pre-generated approach to the game was the first thing which game to mind when I started watching Dwight. Obviously different, but the thematic aspect of it is what caught me.

[Franco]

MJ = 6 Titles, 6 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 17 Points total
Russell = 11 Titles, 0 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 16 Points Total
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 6 League MVP's = 14 Points Total
Lebron = 4 Titles, 4 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 12 Points Total
Magic = 5 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 11 Points Total
Duncan = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 2 League MVP's = 9 Points Total
Kobe = 5 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Shaq = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Bird = 3 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Wilt = 2 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 7 Points Total
Hakeem = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Moses Malone = 1 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 5 Points Total

Also turned a franchise that never won that drafted him into a dynasty and never played with anyone for a season that won league nor finals mvp.
Top in Box Plus/Minus, PER, WS/PER 48 minutes for career in season and playoffs. Also never lost a series with HCA.

Of course as there was no "finals MVP" until 1969, that does give MJ a significant advantage over Russell who would probably have around 8-10 of them in this simplistic analysis in which case he would blow MJ away by this metric.

Well no one else had to only win 2 series for a title either or get a by.

God forbid the Celtics face the might of .500 teams in the first round and live to tell the tale. Truly the most daunting of tasks for all championship teams.

[OhayoKD]

I really try and stay out of the Jordan and Lebron pissing matches, but I think people are lying to themselves if they say "nothing" would really change their minds. Like, a huge part of Lebron's "GOAT" case is the plethora of lineup data we have for his entire career showing he basically had Top-5 all-time "impact". Hell, KG's entire case as a Top-15 guy is based on RAPM and overall impact data. You're telling me that if we had reliable lineup data for Jordan's peak years ('87-'93) that confirmed the eye test and showed he basically had something like peak KG/Curry level impact (+20 on/off), that it wouldn't have you revaluate (assuming he's not already your clear GOAT)? I'd argue at that point you're just letting your bias cloud any sort of objective analysis.

I don't know if this sheds any light on the topic, but https://youtu.be/RqGDLV-do9c

I think MJ's peak is well clear of KG/Curry as is and I think his on/off being at their level likely would just confirm what I already think of him.

Yeah...how exactly would jordan's on/off matching non-goats help his claim to goathood?

[OhayoKD]

Im not sure what you guys have against Ewing lol. He was a great post player in addition to being able to face up. He can hit the turn around jumper over either shoulder from anywhere in and around the paint. Jump hooks over either shoulder. He had mini dream shakes in his repitoire. Up and unders. Running hooks. Leaners. Fadaways. He could go over top. He can go outside, inside. And most importantly he can chain these things together fluidly.

That's a defensive response.

Ewing wasn't known in his own time for his diverse array in the post. He was a stiff, mechanical offensive player who did his best offensive work leveraging his first step against slower big men and wielding his jumper. He was pretty good at that in the RS. He had like 2 good postseason runs as a primary scorer because his offensive game was not particularly special. This isn't news.

There's a reason he looked like stank ass against Olajuwon, and it wasn't just strong individual defense. He struggled in general when he didn't physically overwhelm his opponent because his skill set was neither advanced nor diverse.

Struggled massively against Pippen as well that postseason, was completely contained in game 7 of the ecsf until Pippen was brought off.

Though, tbf, Ewing was past it by then

[Stalwart]

Im not sure what you guys have against Ewing lol. He was a great post player in addition to being able to face up. He can hit the turn around jumper over either shoulder from anywhere in and around the paint. Jump hooks over either shoulder. He had mini dream shakes in his repitoire. Up and unders. Running hooks. Leaners. Fadaways. He could go over top. He can go outside, inside. And most importantly he can chain these things together fluidly.

That's a defensive response.

Ewing wasn't known in his own time for his diverse array in the post. He was a stiff, mechanical offensive player who did his best offensive work leveraging his first step against slower big men and wielding his jumper. He was pretty good at that in the RS. He had like 2 good postseason runs as a primary scorer because his offensive game was not particularly special. This isn't news.

There's a reason he looked like stank ass against Olajuwon, and it wasn't just strong individual defense. He struggled in general when he didn't physically overwhelm his opponent because his skill set was neither advanced nor diverse.

These are just your characterizations of Ewing not necessarily facts: "He worked better shooting jumpers, hes mechanical, and he's not special". Ok, that could all be true, or false. But when I turn on the tape and watch Ewing work in the post I see better footwork and more moves. Plain and simple. I see Ewing chain these moves together in a way I don't see from Wilt. Now if you want to bring passing into it or athleticism then that's something else. But as far as moves and footwork in the post...I see more of that of Ewing.

Ewing also spent his career going against better more modern defense then Wilt Chamberlain did. So if he struggled here or didn't match up well there then that just speaks to how good his peers were and how strong the defense was. You point out that he looked like "stank ass"(so disrespectful) against Olajuwon. Ok. Thats Hakeem Olajuwon, a great post and team defender from a more modern era. Thats also just one series at the tail end of his prime. Put the '90 or '91 version of Pat Ewing up against Bill Russell and lets see what those numbers look like.

[HeartBreakKid]

Been a while since JordanBulls posted his point criteria that uses FMVPs to conveniently rank Bill Russell right behind Jordan seeing as how there was no FMVP's during most of Russell's career.

The title is named after him for god sakes.