Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 - 2014-15 Chris Paul

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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 

Post#21 » by trex_8063 » Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:36 pm

Re: positional "curving"

falcolombardi wrote:This is where i will continue pushing back, that is not the right analogy.



I admit I'm rethinking things a little now. OhayoKD's comments (post #8) are what sort of prompted my re-think.

I sort of assess players from a standpoint of value added ABOVE REPLACEMENT LEVEL......and for that the benchmark I've used is a holistic [all positions] league-wide "replacement level player" (such that all players [all positions] are assessed against that same benchmark).

But perhaps that isn't entirely appropriate if the typical replacement level PF, for example, is better than the typical replacement level SG.
In an historic sense, this is almost undoubtedly the case (though perhaps not the case here in recent/modern times).

Hmm......need to think on it. To some degree it still feels unfair, because in a potential player comparison we'd be "penalizing" an equal [or theoretically better] player simply because the guy you have to sub for him is better than the sub for the guy you're comparing him to.

otoh, it's hard to deny that some positions [at least historically] have more valuable subs than others (simply because it's historically a big man's game). So in terms of "value above replacement", that DOES in reality curve things against the star big-man.


I'm not sure how to reconcile these two lines of thought, but you do have me pondering it......
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 

Post#22 » by DraymondGold » Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:12 pm

I wanted to analyze a few representative highlight plays, since I that may be easier for people to read rather than the full list of plays. I have the full list too if anyone wants.
DraymondGold wrote:I've been doing a film study on both Chris Paul and Nash. Hopefully I'll be able to post more in-depth play by play notes soon, after I finish writing them. But I thought I'd give an initial impression until then.

2007 Steve Nash


Offense: Nash's great shooting efficiency is apparent, both in the 3 point range and in the midrange. However, with his slightly lower scoring volume than the pack, it's his playmaking that stands out. As a floor general, Nash's preference for quick actions, attacking the defense right out of transition before they can set up, clearly led to great shots. The high-volume use of spread pick and roll was clearly a strategic advantage over the competition, and they went to it frequently in this game. If Nash ended the pick and roll possession shooting, it would usually be after a snake dribble. If it ended with Nash playmaking, it would usually involve Nash going to the side (rather than opting for middle penetration), quickly passing to the top where the waiting big man would shoot the midrange or drive.

Defense: Nash's preferred spot on defense is on the weak side, avoiding playing at the point of attack. Here, he would zone up the 2 weak side shooters. He loves to clog the lane or fake at doubling when there's middle penetration. It's better than nothing, but it's not much. He puts high effort in recovering when the ball kicks out to the shooter, quickly accelerating and jumping to disrupt the shot... but his physical limitations prevent these contests from being too effective. Add on the occasional defensive mistake (e.g. miscommunication on screen, etc.), and Nash's reputation as a worse defender seems to fit the film.

2015 Chris Paul


Offense: Paul's scoring reputation is also apparent. At slightly less efficiency than Nash, Paul has slightly more volume. He's less quick to turn to the 3 point shot, although he's not a liability there. Instead, he often prefers the midrange. Both use frequent pick and rolls, and both enjoy going to the snake dribble. Creation-wise, Paul also shows good passing. Like Nash, he often draws the defense on his drives through the midrange, and he shows a willingness to pass back to the open man. However, his slightly slower style of play is also apparent, clearly being less willing to get a teammate a shot early in the shotclock, and his timing for passing out of doubles is just a hair slower than Nash.

Defense: Paul was playing with a injured hamstring this playoff game (shocker, I know...), so his lateral quickness on this film may have been slightly slower than healthy Paul. Nonetheless, Paul is far more active on defense than Nash. Instead of preferring the weak side, Nash prefers to be at the point of attack. He shows occasional physicality, which is good. However his screen navigation was slightly worse than I would have liked... he loses a bit too much position on screens. It doesn't fully break down the Clippers' defense: his teammates' help /zone defense gives Paul some time to recover, and once Paul showed a good contest from behind. This could be a case where the hamstring injury limited his lateral mobility, but I'd need more film from 14/15 to say for sure.

Comparison:
Scoring: Comparable.
Nash is a bit more efficient, Paul has slightly higher volume. Both are good 3 point shooters (though Nash is better), and both are good midrange shooters. Both go to the snake dribble to get open, often preferring to shoot from the elbow or the side rather than the middle. I like how both keep their dribble alive, probing until they see the right opportunity. Neither are the best finishers at the rim, limited by their size.

Playmaking: Nash > Paul.
Both show good passing skills, and a preference for the pick and roll. Both are able to collapse the defense and draw the double team, and both show a willingness to pass out. Nash is just a touch quicker in passing out of these situations, which I like. The bigger difference is that Nash is far quicker attacking out of transition or before the defense gets fully set (the "Seven Seconds or Less" moniker definitely is apparent on film). To my eye, this willingness to attack quickly generates some of the Suns' best looks, and I think it's one of the areas where Nash's playmaking surpasses Paul's. Even if Paul's conservative passing helps limit team turnovers, his slightly slower decision making also costs some good looks.

Off-ball: Neither are great.
Both are fairly lazy off-ball, preferring to stand around the perimeter and solely provide spacing. To my eye, Nash provided slightly more spacing value with his better shooting closer to the 3 point line. Interestingly Paul preferred to stand quite a ways back from the 3 point line. This made it easier for his defender to sag off of him, since it was clear Paul wasn't going to shoot from Curry-range. I think Paul was trying to make it easier for his teammate to pass out of an action and restart the possession if the non-Paul action fizzled out. It also made it easier for him to get back on defense.
Nash showed a greater willingness to be a screener off-ball, though none of his screens were effective and they weren't common either.. Both will occasionally direct traffic off-ball, though to my eye Paul will do so more (note: tiny sample for this data, so probably not representative). All-in-all, both left something to be desired off ball. I think the scalability concerns (i.e. the concerns with losing value next to better on-ball teammates) are fair.

Defense: Paul > Nash.
Nash's defense was very low-activity. He showed a willingness to put effort in, which is good, but neither his occasional help defense when clogging the lane nor his recovery defense when chasing the perimeter shooter were that impactful. I guess it's good that he preferred to defend on the weak side, as this prevented him from being a liability more often. Still, it also doesn't add value. He occasionally made defensive mistakes too, which isn't doing him any favors.
While Paul's defense was also not super high-impact, he clearly had larger "defensive volume" at the point of attack, instead of hiding on the weak side like Nash. He showed good activity and occasional physicality, though his screen navigation left something to be desired. This may have been the limits of Paul's injured hamstring. Regardless, this seemed like more positive defensive value than Nash.


2:50, Man Defense and Help Defense
Great man d, showing some physicality and good screen navigation. He then knows he can clog lane on Kawhi's drive, to deter the rim attempt and help on the rebound. While Nash is much more of a weak-side zoning defender, Paul's in the thick of the action at the point of attack.

13:05, off-ball offense (cons)
Paul likes to stand far back from the 3 point line when he’s off ball. This doesn’t provide much off-ball value, but it makes it easier for his teammates to pass back out. Here, the reset involves Paul starting a drive which starts to break down the defense, then setting up the play with a pass.

15:00, pick and roll on-ball offense (pros)
High screen, and Paul shows great quickness on his drive. He collapses the defense, pulling in multiple defenders, then shows he's a willing and fairly quick passer. Nash might have been just a hair quicker, using a behind-the-back pass rather than a turnaround pass, but we're talking very small differences and Paul still generates the open shot here.

39:20, defense (cons)
A few times, Paul had some trouble navigating screens in this game. Some of this is likely reduced quickness, as he is playing injured. Often when he struggles around a screen, his teammates will provide temporary help defense until he recovers. Still, even with these cons, I see him as a clearly better defender than Nash.

42:13, midrange offense
Like Nash, Paul likes to start with a screen. Great handle and acceleration to get by Kawhi, then it's a snake dribble to a great midrange shot. Great possession, classic CP3. This midrange shot is very resilient against good defense.

48:25, transition offense and off-ball play
Many say Nash was a more aggressive passer. This is true, but like many all-time great offensive players, Paul still shows willingness to pass ahead and push opportunities in transition. Here he passes to the streaking Griffin.
Then, in the half court, he stands far behind the 3 point line. But this play, you see his spacing value. He sneaks back to the line and nails the 3 when he gets the pass.

54:24, Point of attack defense
At the point of attack, Paul shows defensive ability well beyond Nash. This is a great block to prevent the layup. Then he shows willingness to push ahead in transition, which leads to the open 3.

At this point in the game, Paul's hamstring starts acting up and clearly bothers him, hampering his speed on both sides of the floor. But there are still 2 plays that are worth watching for entertainment value alone.

1:06:38, Clutch 3 point shooting
Paul’s not normally the one to make super long 3s (though he’s by no means a poor shooter)… but wow, what a shot. It starts a hot streak that carries into the fourth quarter, where Paul makes several more tough shots from range.
Also, Paul ignoring Blake Griffin’s high five is hilarious haha.

1:34:40, Clutch Iso Offense.
Here's a wonderfully entertaining clutch play. Chris Paul's late-game decision making is usually very good. Here, he starts off ball, isolates, and nails the midrange shot over the double team.[/quote]
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 

Post#23 » by AEnigma » Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:12 pm

I tend to be more of an absolute value guy (to the extent we can assess that), but either way you are being positionally biased, right. I do think that with certain positional liabilities it is relevant to point out that is going to hamper the team in uncommon ways. With Jokic, sure, if we could put Timelord and Smart and Mikal and Anunoby on that team then I would trust their defence in the postseason, but that is not feasible, and needing to do something like that is why simply saying he has more absolute defensive value than Steph or Nash does not get us anywhere. And in Barkley’s case we are not even getting a real spacing advantage to accommodate the usual limits of any defensive forwards and bigs we may want with him.
MyUniBroDavis wrote:Some people are clearly far too overreliant on data without context and look at good all in one or impact numbers and get wowed by that rather than looking at how a roster is actually built around a player
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 

Post#24 » by DraymondGold » Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:13 pm

DraymondGold wrote:
DraymondGold wrote:Expanding my ballot a bit, since there's more uncertainty the closer the peaks get together:
1. 1949 Mikan (1950/1951)
2. 2014 Chris Paul (2015, 2009, 2008)
Edit: 3. 1998 Karl Malone (1997, 1993/1992)
Edit: 4. 1990 Charles Barkley (1993, 1989, 1991)


Previous vote reasoning: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=100961668#p100961668
Old Stat Box: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=100988617#p100988617
Newer Stat box: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=101165986#p101165986

Mikan: He's clearly the most dominant of anyone here by any (few) stats we have, and by any (limited) film we have [see my previous conversation on the topic]. The big question is how much to discount him for his competition or from a "goodness" perspective. I'm honestly not sure what the answer is. I put him here, approximately around the boundary between two Tiers of peaks. I think there'll definitely be some arbitrariness in when he gets voted in though. I just wish we had more info on him!

Paul: I suspect he'll be given the Robinson treatment. His regular season impact is clearly just as good as anyone here. The concern for him is playoffs. And while I think the constant harping about him as a "choker" is overrated (and often health related), he does show a decline in the film and in the stats (BPM/PIPM/AuPM) even in the playoffs where he's relatively healthy. Add some scalability concerns, and he gets discounted a bit, but stays above those who seem to be a small tier below him.

Edit for Paul: in a parallel thread, people are looking at relative Offensive Rating when a player's on the court since 1997/2001ish. 2015 Paul's on-court rORTG peak is the 3rd best peak, in the same tier as 2016/2017 Curry or 2005/2007 Nash. That's crazy good offense! His 2018 rating is also top 10, and his 2008, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2016 ratings are all also in the upper echelon.

In this metric (which is just one metric that could benefit from more context, but still), Paul seems to come out ahead offensively over Harden and even Dirk, Shaq, and LeBron (in the same tier as Durant, below Nash/Curry). It's regular season-only, so this might not assuage the postseason concerns, but it reinforces just how good Paul is in the regular season. Give Paul clearly better defense over Harden (who also isn't the better postseason performer, health aside) or Nash (who's a larger negative on defense), and Paul's case over the other guards starts to build.
Source: Sprees Opening post and my post (#19) in the on-court rORTG thread (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2222668).


For Nash v Paul film analysis, see here: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=101215201#p101215201

I've added Malone and Barkley. I haven't had time to go in depth on this comparison, but a shorter comparison can be found in my previous stats post (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=101165986#p101165986).
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 

Post#25 » by Proxy » Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:14 pm

Proxy wrote:
Proxy wrote:1. 2015 Chris Paul
-Will probably actually add on him when he gets more traction, but I feel he deserves some mention. I have my reservations when it comes to his offensive ceiling in a PS setting(Think he was too conservative in his decisions on offense and had to basically run everything through himself in his head at least until Houston even with other capable decision makers on his team). Which with his injuries(and others), and in the end, being an only 6'0, limited, guard heavily overrelied on in these situations being part of reasons the Clippers constant PS collapses).

His value seems mostly overstated in the RS - his extreme ball dominance paired with the collinearity in Docs' lineups being one reason why(https://alexwainger.github.io/NBASubstitutionPatterns/), but he's still pretty impressive in  pretty much any approach you try - just not looking like a t10 player ever rivaling Steph/Bron in their primes like some APM stuff would lead you to believe(http://nbashotcharts.com/rapm5?id=2031507149) IMO.

Though with his pretty strong offense(I find it somewhat hard to drop him below like a t20 ish offensive player at his peak with his success, at least New Orleans Paul), paired with very strong defense this year(clearly all-defense for a G IMO) I decided give him the edge over my upcoming picks for now even if I feel them to be more reliable offensively. The large defensive edge being why I chose Clippers Paul over New Orleans Paul(I don't see that version as much more than a slight positive vs this one being clearly all-D caliber for a guard to me), I think the offensive gap between those two versions is somewhat notable but really not all that big.

Leaning McGrady or Nash next, with probably some mix of Frazier, Moses, Karl, Barkley, Ewing, Mourning(need to think on this one and no shot I vote him in before Ewing), and Embiid after. Penny, Dwight, Harden, and Luka also in mind but I doubt I vote them in before anyone from that first group besides Zo rn. We'll see.


2. 2003 Tracy McGrady
I guess the main comp for this season would be the floor raising efforts by players like Kobe(2006, Voted 19th), and Wade(2009, Voted 18th) - more similarily to Kobe(and somehow he ended up higher than him in one of the projects lol).

I don't think his situational value was really all that far off of those two, and I feel he was arguably in an even worse situation. I'd also say his game translated to the PS fairly well(seriously though, the expectations for some of those squads should be basically none), and there isn't really something I can point to from a skillset perspective that would cause me alot of concern in most runs, but the sample size for this Tmac is just sooo small - even right after in 2004 he was in an even worse situation and basically gave up on defense. Also by that point back problems started affecting his performance more and more.

RS to PS (2002 - 2005, unless i'm reading the multi year PS stuff wrong, but still just like 3 playoffs series) (via backpicks.com)
29.2 Inflation Adjusted Pts/75 -> 31.7
+1.6 rTS% -> +4.8% (also only a 6.9 Creation adjusted TOV% in the RS(!)
8.4 Box Creation -> +10.1
7.28 Passer Rating -> 6.3
+1.2 PlayVal -> +1.1
+1.1 ScoreVal -> +1.7


I will say that even though the numbers do paint the idea of him being a playoff riser, I think his performance in high leverage/clutch situations is kinda uninspiring relative to some of his peers(possibly due to fatigue), but reasons like that, the "flukiness" of the season, and the playoff sample size are all reasons that I think the gap between him and players like Kobe/Wade is fairly justified.

He is not the best offensive player remaining to me(Nash definitely and maybe Chuck, Penny, Harden, and Luka all better), but I view him as a positive impact player defensively in most cases so he slips past my next picks. (On a side note I think both and 2006 Kobe are somewhat underrated in that their defense on/off splits are hurt by teams slanting defensively when they leave the court).

3. 1997 Karl Malone (1998, 1992)
Honestly I could see the argument for him even being a top 20 ish regular season peak ever, but I generally have my gripes with him in a playoffs setting. Even with those though I don't think it's all too damning for Karl to drop him below here and I believe his impact translated better than his box numbers(more specifically scoring efficiency) would have you believe.
ElGee wrote:Using this post to piggy-back some thoughts off of:

-The notion of someone being a "postseason" performer is currently unsubstantiated. I've seen a small amount of evidence to suggest that a very small handful of Reggie players Miller can Reggie Miller raise their Reggie game in the Miller playoffs. But I've yet to see the study that demonstrates a statistically significant change. Malone has a huge TS% falloff relative to the other greats, and still, there's huge evidence that the Jazz wilted around him offensively and he simply took on a larger burden (e.g. the team ORtg correlates to his strongly, his teammates TOV% plummets in the PS, Stockton has a massive decline in postseason numbers).

-I would agree -- independent of some of the box numbers being thrown around -- that Malone is not as good of an offensive players (RS or PS) as West or Dirk or Barkley. But Malone is a mirror to one's rankings criteria. He will lose, by a small but clear amount, most peak-to-peak battles against every other player in this range. So what? If you value career value, this is literally irrelevant. I think this is where having a clear ranking rubric is paramount, not for anything to do with egos or fandom of rankings but so you are clearly communicating what exactly you are ranking.

Ironically, Dr. J is in the runoff with West and I would not quickly concede that Malone is a worse offensive player Erving. I think Erving's defense is phenomenal -- think peak LeBron as an athletic force -- but there are some issues with his offensive game that are not readily overcome with incredible slashing. Malone, OTOH, is probably the most misrepresented player statistically I can think of on real gm. Even from 92-98, he was a 27 ppg player at +1.8 TS% against 103.9 defenses in the PS. Malone played 85 prime games against sub-105 defenses, averaging 23/36 on 52.5% TS with 2.9 ast/36 and 2.4 tov. (+2.3 OBEV). Compare that to other all-timers:

    vs. Sub-105 defenses in prime, PS, per 36
    Olajuwon (29g) 20.6 | 55.1% TS | 3.1 ast | 3.1 tov | +2.2 OBEV
    Malone (85g) 23.0 pts | 52.5% TS | 2.9 ast | 2.8 tov | +2.3 OBEV
    Kobe (105g) 23.3 pts | 52.6% TS | 4.3 ast | 2.6 tov | +2.7 OBEV
    Duncan (85g) 20.5 pts | 54.6% TS | 3.3 ast | 2.9 tov | +2.9 OBEV


Finally, while it's true that a 30 ppg/60% TS can be an average offensive player, a player can also be a 25 ppg/50% TS and be an elite offensive player. He does this with creation. With passing. With spacing. By bearing a role around teammates that sees him take more shots late in the clock, etc. By shooting more in the half-court (where expected pts/pos are lower). By not stopping the ball for no reason and by not passing the ball late in the clock when he's the best option. As a good example, in 2005, Tracy McGrady (an excellent creator himself) led a +6.3 offense (after the Wesley trade) while averaging 27 ppg and 53.2% TS, 0.3% over league average. Malone, of course, was a phenomenal passer.

The only bigs left on the board who could do more with that offense -- Dirk and Barkley -- give something back on defense anyway.

---
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https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1339145&start=300

4. 1990 Patrick Ewing
AEnigma basically laid out Ewing's argument already - I just prefer Karl enough on offense for me to prefer him here.
https://forums.realgm.com/boardsviewtopic.php?f=64&t=2224702#p101158627

?. 1990 Charles Barkley (1989, 1993)
Probably the 2nd best offensive peak remaining to me(after Nash). To be brief: asurd combination of scoring efficiency(partially inflated by ball stopping issues) and ridiculous rim pressure, all-time offensive rebounding, and one of the better big playmakers of all-time(I do think he peaked in this regard in Phoenix). Chuck averaged 24/75 on +8.7 rTS% in the PS from 1989 - 1991 with almost 5 offensive rebounds per 75. The pollack Sixers on/off numbers said he had about a +10 swing on offense(around neutral on defense) these 2 years in the RS, and they were probably his finest defensive ones as well(though I can't see any real reason to believe he was a net positive there - I'd say he was clearly a negative if anything for a power forward).
Image

Philly those years had some pretty strong offenses(+5 in both regular seasons) but their defenses were just not that good, and they also didn't hold up completely on offense in the playoffs either.

Otoh later in Phoenix(I think he was a similar level player offensively)
Elgee wrote:After a statistical dip in 1992, Barkley was traded to Phoenix for All-Star scorer Jeff Hornacek and two rotation players. Philadelphia grew even worse, while Phoenix, already one of the best offensive teams in the league, was able to improve on its 1992 season with Barkley aboard. On offense, the Suns posted an elite +7 rORtg during 52 full-strength games. More impressively, in 32 games without all-league guard Kevin Johnson, but with Barkley, they engineered a +5.2 rORtg while playing at a 58-win pace.9 Barkley took more 3s than ever, and as a result, his offensive rebounding declined. However, the slight improvement in his passing largely made up for his drop in efficiency, as he set a career mark for estimated creation.

This team actually wasn't actually terrible defensively(above average actually, without a substantial change in his skillset or anything) and the floor raising effort here was extremely impressive(Phoenix's offenses actually held up in the PS, around +7.5 ish but their defenses where again abysmal, almost 3 points worse than average). I believe his defense is still not worse than the other "glass cannon players"(ex Harden, Luka, Penny), so with similar offensive quality he ends above them.

?. 2022 Joel Embiid(?)
Will add later

Honestly he might even be better than those 3 above already, but the health thing is hard to balance. I may still slide him higher later but I might also decide to not put him on at all(not sure he's really been better in the PS than Luka for example), but he's GOOD.


Anyways, after these players i'm leaning some group of Frazier, Zo, Penny, Dwight, Harden, and Luka.


The dicussion on Barkley's defense is making me rethink my position on him slightly, so I won't actually add him on my ballot for this round but i'll still keep the info above there for anyone interested. I'm still not completely sold on choosing the other primary offensive players with quality around his level that also have generally neutral-bad defense either around here(Ex Harden, Doncić, and Hardaway, Miller) over him - so they probably won't end up higher on my voting than him but I am reconsidering how Barkley stacks up against some of the all-defense bigmen(like Dwight, Zo, Joel, honestly even considering Thurmond, Gilmore, Cowens, Lanier, Draymond, and Reed to some degree - Ik he has been mentioned but I don't really see the evidence in Pettit's defense for me to rank him higher than Chuck), as well as some wings/fowards like Pippen, Barry, Hill, 19 PG, Baylor, and Hondo. Frazier doesn't fit into those categories but he's also getting consideration, also Russ ig(doubt I vote for him unless this goes to 50).

So for now

1. 2015 Chris Paul
2. 2003 Tracy McGrady
3. 1997 Karl Malone(1998, 1992)
4. 1990 Patrick Ewing
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 

Post#26 » by No-more-rings » Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:07 pm

Chris Paul likely has this spot, but I gotta say his peak and prime is still one of the more polarizing on this board. Some people think he’s like barely better than guys like Kidd or Stockton, while others think he’s basically as good as Magic Johnson. I think this is a fair enough spot for his peak, although I thought his spot for careers was overrated in the past 2 career projects.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 

Post#27 » by trex_8063 » Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:44 pm

trelos6 wrote:28. 2007-08 Chris Paul. CP3 was an elite offensive initiator AND point of attack defender. Advanced stats love this season. 13.2 OWS, 4.6 DWS. Had a strong argument for MVP going up against a peak Kobe season.


Proxy wrote:1. 2015 Chris Paul



The vote on Paul is pretty evenly divided between '08 and '15 version.
In the interest of getting my preferred candidate off the table AND of better representing what I suspect is both of your opinions.......

......Unless you [Proxy] feel that '15 Paul is the best season left on the table, but '08 Paul is shite and doesn't remotely belong in the conversation......and you [trelos6] feel '08 Paul is the best single season left on the table, but '15 Paul is shite and doesn't remotely belong in the conversation: I strongly suggest you indicate a hierarchy of various Chris Paul seasons in your vote posts.

Otherwise when LABird tabulates the results, as I understand it, he will count your ballot [trelos6] as '15 Paul losing to absolutely everyone else who got a vote: that's a H2H loss to '90 Barkley, '22 Embiid, '03 TMac, '18 Harden, '19 Harden, '20 Harden, '17 Westbrook, '94 Pippen, '90 Ewing, '11 Howard, '50 Mikan, '51 Mikan, '59 Pettit, '61 Baylor, and '97 Karl Malone.

He does not assume your vote carries over to a different Chris Paul season. So....like A LOT of losses.

Ditto your ballot Proxy (except it's '08 Paul who loses).
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 

Post#28 » by trelos6 » Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:44 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
trelos6 wrote:28. 2007-08 Chris Paul. CP3 was an elite offensive initiator AND point of attack defender. Advanced stats love this season. 13.2 OWS, 4.6 DWS. Had a strong argument for MVP going up against a peak Kobe season.


Proxy wrote:1. 2015 Chris Paul



The vote on Paul is pretty evenly divided between '08 and '15 version.
In the interest of getting my preferred candidate off the table AND of better representing what I suspect is both of your opinions.......

......Unless you [Proxy] feel that '15 Paul is the best season left on the table, but '08 Paul is shite and doesn't remotely belong in the conversation......and you [trelos6] feel '08 Paul is the best single season left on the table, but '15 Paul is shite and doesn't remotely belong in the conversation: I strongly suggest you indicate a hierarchy of various Chris Paul seasons in your vote posts.

Otherwise when LABird tabulates the results, as I understand it, he will count your ballot [trelos6] as '15 Paul losing to absolutely everyone else who got a vote: that's a H2H loss to '90 Barkley, '22 Embiid, '03 TMac, '18 Harden, '19 Harden, '20 Harden, '17 Westbrook, '94 Pippen, '90 Ewing, '11 Howard, '50 Mikan, '51 Mikan, '59 Pettit, '61 Baylor, and '97 Karl Malone.

He does not assume your vote carries over to a different Chris Paul season. So....like A LOT of losses.

Ditto your ballot Proxy (except it's '08 Paul who loses).


Thanks, added a bit.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 

Post#29 » by LA Bird » Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:48 pm

trex_8063 wrote:Otherwise when LABird tabulates the results, as I understand it, he will count your ballot [trelos6] as '15 Paul losing to absolutely everyone else who got a vote: that's a H2H loss to '90 Barkley, '22 Embiid, '03 TMac, '18 Harden, '19 Harden, '20 Harden, '17 Westbrook, '94 Pippen, '90 Ewing, '11 Howard, '50 Mikan, '51 Mikan, '59 Pettit, '61 Baylor, and '97 Karl Malone.

He does not assume your vote carries over to a different Chris Paul season. So....like A LOT of losses.

Just to clarify, in this example, 15 Paul only loses H2H to the seasons already included in trelos6's vote (08 Paul, 19 Harden, 90 Barkley, 93 Barkley, 03 McGrady). 15 Paul doesn't lose to say 50 Mikan because he didn't vote for either of those seasons at all.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 

Post#30 » by LukaTheGOAT » Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:11 pm

When I feel like getting lit on a Friday night, I look through CP3 advanced stats to mimic the feeling of getting high.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 

Post#31 » by No-more-rings » Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:21 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:When I feel like getting lit on a Friday night, I look through CP3 advanced stats to mimic the feeling of getting high.

You feeling alright my man? Lol
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 

Post#32 » by falcolombardi » Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:25 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:When I feel like getting lit on a Friday night, I look through CP3 advanced stats to mimic the feeling of getting high.


Lmao
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 

Post#33 » by LukaTheGOAT » Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:16 am

No-more-rings wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:When I feel like getting lit on a Friday night, I look through CP3 advanced stats to mimic the feeling of getting high.

You feeling alright my man? Lol


It's Friday night bro
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 

Post#34 » by No-more-rings » Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:31 am

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:When I feel like getting lit on a Friday night, I look through CP3 advanced stats to mimic the feeling of getting high.

You feeling alright my man? Lol


It's Friday night bro

No better place to spend it than Realgm lol.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 

Post#35 » by LukaTheGOAT » Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:08 am

No-more-rings wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:You feeling alright my man? Lol


It's Friday night bro

No better place to spend it than Realgm lol.


I went to the gym and pretended to be Chris Paul for a lot of the moves I practiced :D
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 

Post#36 » by AEnigma » Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:31 am

LukaTheGOAT wrote:I went to the gym and pretended to be Chris Paul for a lot of the moves I practiced :D

Is your hamstring okay
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 

Post#37 » by falcolombardi » Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:50 am

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
It's Friday night bro

No better place to spend it than Realgm lol.


I went to the gym and pretended to be Chris Paul for a lot of the moves I practiced :D


I actually remember first liking paul because he was my height and trying to imitate his moves
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 

Post#38 » by LA Bird » Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:56 pm

Here are the results for round 28

Winner: 15 Paul

There were 11 voters in this round: trex_8063, OhayoKD, AEnigma, capfan33, Samurai, trelos6, falcolombardi, rk2023, Dutchball97, DraymondGold, Proxy

A total of 34 seasons received at least 1 vote: 03 McGrady, 08 Paul, 09 Paul, 11 Howard, 13 Paul, 14 Paul, 15 Paul, 16 Paul, 16 Westbrook, 17 Westbrook, 18 Harden, 19 Harden, 20 Harden, 21 Embiid, 22 Embiid, 49 Mikan, 50 Mikan, 51 Mikan, 58 Pettit, 59 Pettit, 61 Baylor, 62 Pettit, 89 Barkley, 90 Barkley, 90 Ewing, 91 Barkley, 92 Malone, 93 Barkley, 93 Malone, 94 Ewing, 94 Malone, 94 Pippen, 97 Malone, 98 Malone

Top 10 seasons: 15 Paul, 08 Paul, 19 Harden, 14 Paul, 03 McGrady, 50 Mikan, 20 Harden, 90 Ewing, 51 Mikan, 90 Barkley

H2H record (1 season per player)
15 Paul: 0.738 (31-11)
19 Harden: 0.596 (28-19)
03 McGrady: 0.436 (17-22)
50 Mikan: 0.417 (15-21)
90 Ewing: 0.385 (15-24)
90 Barkley: 0.371 (13-22)
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 - 2014-15 Chris Paul 

Post#39 » by Stan » Sat Sep 17, 2022 8:07 pm

How the hell did 2015 get the nod over 2008? He put up better production across the board and led a less talented team to as many wins as he did in 2015, and in all honesty probably should've been the MVP. Definitely the most baffling year selection thus far.
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Re: Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #28 - 2014-15 Chris Paul 

Post#40 » by AEnigma » Sat Sep 17, 2022 9:35 pm

Stan wrote:How the hell did 2015 get the nod over 2008?

You could try reading the cases given, but in short, better defence, shooting, experience, and on-court results.

He put up better production across the board

So why not 2009? If the answer is “playoffs”, are you similarly confident in 2008’s playoff production over 2015’s? Maybe you are, but a lot of people do prefer his Clippers production on that front too.

and led a less talented team to as many wins as he did in 2015,

Was it less talented with Griffin missing fifteen games?

and in all honesty probably should've been the MVP.

This is always a fun one. Okay, based on what standards? He did not have the best team, not even in his conference. Kobe beat him head to head. He did not have the best on/off. He did not have the best on-court rating. He did not play crazy minutes. He does lead in Basketball Reference’s win shares, but somehow I doubt you are ready for a five-time MVP Harden.

Definitely the most baffling year selection thus far.

The most contentious perhaps, but that does not really say much when so many other players have relatively clear peak claims and periods.
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